US civil war?

[waived]

You've yet to properly cite or provide anything yourself other than opinion. But apparently your opinion is the only one that matters because everyone else's doesn't even qualify as such.

This is the last time I'm going to reply to you on this subject. I've repeatedly and respectfully tried so disengage you and I ask that you not continue to attack my views or slander me with ad hominems. Have a great day.

You don't get to re-engage me in conversation and then blame me for not disengaging. That's cheap. I suggested the news, and two specific sources, Vice, and Twitter for you to reexamine your egregiously silly claim that there hasn't been any paramilitary activity in the united states recently. A cursory glance and paltry effort on your part would have given you a trove of information. Instead, you responded that, "American news is controlled disinformation. A small handful of mega corporations own everything." I then explained why that is completely incorrect and will not do so again. I then spent the time to construct several large paragraphs to you and another user who essentially disregarded by posts and told me that I hadn't responded to them. We never reached a point where I had to begin "properly citing" things. When discussing a topic with people who respond as you and the other user have here I see no reason *at all* to consider your opinions valid, or think that they matter on this particular topic.

That's unless some significant societal breakdown was already underway.

It is.

 

[Fragile]

You don't get to re-engage me in conversation and then blame me for not disengaging. That's cheap. I suggested the news, and two specific sources, Vice, and Twitter for you to reexamine your egregiously silly claim that there hasn't been any paramilitary activity in the united states recently. A cursory glance and paltry effort on your part would have given you a trove of information. Instead, you responded that, "American news is controlled disinformation. A small handful of mega corporations own everything." I then explained why that is completely incorrect and will not do so again. I then spent the time to construct several large paragraphs to you and another user who essentially disregarded by posts and told me that I hadn't responded to them. We never reached a point where I had to begin "properly citing" things. When discussing a topic with people who respond as you and the other user have here I see no reason *at all* to consider your opinions valid, or think that they matter on this particular topic.


It is.

The reason I stopped responding is because I see no point in arguing about this topic, your perspective is not going to change and neither is mine. And that's fine.

Maybe you are right, and I exaggerated by saying that there is zero chance of a civil war erupting, but to be completely honest, the moment that you said vice and twitter my eyes rolled back inside my skull and came back the other side. It's just that vice has been consistently shit for the last 6 years and twitter is full of reactionaries spewing the most deranged statements to get retweeted.

Still, you have a point, but a civil war is more like the worst possible scenario instead of a possible reality.

 

[Wayfaerer]

I don't think there will be a civil war, Americans are too fat and happy to fight. Take away their precious sportsball and budweiser first and then maybe we can talk about civil war. The sad thing is in this case is that I am in no shape to fight in a civil war even if there was one. Things are so exciting today yet I am in the worst condition of my life. It's been a trend for me that I get when I need but only when it's too late to be of any good.

Also all news outlets are sensationalist trash and I would put no stock in what they have to say.

 

[waived]

Also all news outlets are sensationalist trash and I would put no stock in what they have to say.

But then again the real experts can watch the news to find out what's going on, because they understand the agendas, the politics, the positioning, and are equals to it and other worldly things that through learning have been de-cloaked and demystified and all things become unlocked and then you become truly relevant.

 

[ForcedLifeResistant]

It is.

Destabilizing forces abound, but our system has homeostatic mechanisms built into it. The executive, the Intelligence agencies, the branches of the military, even the keepers of the monetary system, they've all researched and developed contingencies against any number of exigent circumstances. We haven't. Ordinary citizens populate the most vulnerable sector of society, in this government of, by, and for the people.

 

[Deleted member 23374]

Destabilizing forces abound, but our system has homeostatic mechanisms built into it. The executive, the Intelligence agencies, the branches of the military, even the keepers of the monetary system, they've all researched and developed contingencies against any number of exigent circumstances. We haven't. Ordinary citizens populate the most vulnerable sector of society, in this government of, by, and for the people.

Okay but the unconventional undercuts that right ?

 

[DJJE]

There's already a culture war thats being fueled on social media by Iran, China, and Russia. They are quite happy to show that the greatest democracy in the world is giving its idiot public a choice between two incompetent geriatric.

The good news is that their president will only last 4 years, and by that time the parties will hopefully learn their lessons and start to promote decent candidates when the baby bomber political generation starts to die off.

 

[Good4Nothing]

The good news is that their president will only last 4 years, and by that time the parties will hopefully learn their lessons and start to promote decent candidates when the baby bomber political generation starts to die off.

The boomers are my parents generation, but OMG they need to die. The damn boomers have fucked this world up so bad it will take generations to fix, if it's even fixable.

 

[ForcedLifeResistant]

Okay but the unconventional undercuts that right ?

Going back to my first response to this thread, I said that I think intelligence community intervention would put down a would-be civil war before it got going, unless there was some significant systemic breakdown underway. What 'significant' implies, to me, is that the exigent circumstances would have to be severe enough as to cause the intelligence community to a exhaust a sufficient amount of its recourses deploying contingencies. We're not anywhere near there, yet, in my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 23374]

Going back to my first response to this thread, I said that I think intelligence community intervention would put down a would-be civil war before it got going, unless there was some significant systemic breakdown underway. What 'significant' implies, to me, is that the exigent circumstances would have to be severe enough as to cause the intelligence community to a exhaust a sufficient amount of its recourses deploying contingencies. We're not anywhere near there, yet, in my opinion.

Okay, i was wondering about the hard press to dismantle the administrative state. How far from that marker do you think "we" are ? Trying to wrap my head around a world i don't understand anymore.

 

[StateOfMind]

Unlikely. Federal agencies (FBI, CIA, NSA) are too powerful and have not been sufficiently challenged over the past decades.
For a civil war to break out it would require many willing participants and / or extreme circumstances that affect many people.
I don't see that happening because most people are just too apathetic and are content with netflix and other mind-numbing distractions.

 

[Deleted member 23374]

From what i've seen so far, the fbi appears to be firmly in trump's pocket. So 1 down it seems.

 

[waived]

During times of unrest the current state power even if aligned in partial ways with one side of a civil conflict will retreat to protect its own assets. It cares about and supports its governance. It can support one side or another, the side closest to it's own ethos, in a cloaked and limited manner, again to protect itself. Most people in this thread are attempting to define civil war as an event that is in its immediacy the toppling of the total sum of the existing order. This is objectively incorrect. Civil war can occur without a notion of victory, civil war is a process. The downplay and reduction of unrest within the United States as "some riots" and "some hicks with a few guns" is indicative of positions that would downplay or deny the existence of further escalation. Either misinformed or deliberate, for whatever personal motivations, it is simply moving the goal posts to define civil war only upon a nebulous notion of its completion. To define it as it's parts is a genuine analysis.

As was beautifully pointed out by @Fragile -civil war is ideological but I'd say we're already there, but that this civil war no longer offers harbor to any existing political apparatus or ethos. You cannot find its parts there. We've entered into the age of kinetics now. Circa June 2020 St Louis MO, police being shot and shot at during a fiery night of open rebellion. There were and are people being maimed and killed by police and by each other against a back drop of burning buildings and skylines filled with tear gas. Mass expropriation of goods from shipping supply lines, warehouses, and department stores are common place during the day when unrest flares. Entire cities are closed down and boarded up in anticipation of spectacular levels of violence. A major media network known for being liberal gets sieged with pyrotechnics and a waterfall of bricks. Police assets burn in major and minor cities alike. The police retreat and shelter in place while the national guard and other forces get called into multiple cities at which point the conflict only intensifies. The news headlines buzz with reports of the intelligence community engaging in it's own operations. A presidential campaign convoy is aggressed on an open highway, the campaign retreats from the entire state of Texas. Vigilante border operations escalate. Protests and talk of rights become a rarity and only exist during the cover of daylight. The big house gets fortified and fortified again. Gang signs of both sides get thrown at public events for millions to see. Hashtags of the names of the dead reveal the fury of the previous evenings. The viral, economic, and ecological catastrophe escalates. The lifeblood of cities drains away as investment vanishes. These are not signs of peace they are some of the most significant indications of global collapse the world has ever seen because of the increase in frequency all over the world.

You don't get events like this unless things are real.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

@DJJE , what I'm quoting by you inspired the following response, but it is not directed at you. I am responding to the words, I don't care who they came from or whether you personally agree with them.

Also, I'm just talking into the wind here. What i have to say solves nothing. This thread solves nothing. Imo, all of us here are fired up in some way and can't do shit about it, same as the thread about "white privilege," any political thread, even threads complaining about the mental health system. We can all see bullshit, and can't do shit about it except be intellectually and spiritually (morally) offended.

They are quite happy to show that the greatest democracy in the world is giving its idiot public a choice between two incompetent geriatric.

Is there any public that's not "idiot"? That sounds like victim blaming.

People can't know what they do not know.

Any education system, whether state-run or just how people learn from one another in society, eschews teaching critical thinking and pumps up ideology. Publics generally don't have power. And this is why I just said in another thread that I don't vote -- I'm not being given a choice, I'm not being empowered to participate; I'm being manipulated to use my mental, emotional, spiritual (moral) and physical energy to participate in my own domination and feel good about it.

The US is not a democracy, it's supposed to be a republic -- a government of the public, by the public and for the public. But it is not. People are not educated about how to critique it, participate in it, draw their equal benefits from it, or take it down or repair it when it is no longer a republic.

But the US does not function as a republic, therefore it is not one. Presidents override the constitution and start wars, or force participation in the marketplace with health insurance under "Obamacare," which penalizes people via income taxes if they refuse compliance.

Of course the republic will crumble, because the constitution and the bill of rights are not upheld by the government, and the public has no power over this. The public has no power to fight the government, but only to follow a revolutionary leader with sufficient military and persuasive power who, if and once the current structure is toppled, will impose a new government with new ways to shit on the people it promised to liberate -- classic bait and switch. That's how civil wars and revolutions generally end up, with old power more powerful, or new power shitty in new ways. I think the only way the US could possibly come out of its shit is if there were a leader with enough power to win a war that brings the country back to the constitution and bill of rights, including a judicial system that didn't "interpret" the constitution as something to get around rather than uphold; a congress that worked in the interest of individuals that make up the public and not corporations that are "interpreted" to be individuals; and presidents that stayed within their bounds of their functions. Not gonna happen.

Everything is a war. Government agencies are used to undermine citizens, to fuck with their heads, to fuck with everyone. Power just wants more power. Whatever upheaval is happening, along with all the technologies in play, is going to end up as a huge bait-and-switch, a switch to greater and worse power, and the "idiot" public HAS. NO. CHOICE, NO AGENCY, NO POWER, and will be used and harmed in the interests of those who do have power. That is what it means to be a victim. Not an idiot.

I and others can see all these things and be voices crying in the wilderness, but that doesn't protect me or us or anyone else. With the advanced technologies in existence, we can't do shit. I mean technologies so advanced that an army will drop their weapons because they all at the same time heard "God" tell them to. This is utter dystopia. And anyone who has the power and technology to overcome it is not likely to be a benevolent hero.

Sometimes it is easier and preferable to be an "idiot." Awareness sucks when one has no power to also effect change. Hope keeps one going. Humans can't really survive without it, even if it doesn't come true.

 

[Broken Chimera]

@DJJE , what I'm quoting by you inspired the following response, but it is not directed at you. I am responding to the words, I don't care who they came from or whether you personally agree with them.

Also, I'm just talking into the wind here. What i have to say solves nothing. This thread solves nothing. Imo, all of us here are fired up in some way and can't do shit about it, same as the thread about "white privilege," any political thread, even threads complaining about the mental health system. We can all see bullshit, and can't do shit about it except be intellectually and spiritually (morally) offended.



Is there any public that's not "idiot"? That sounds like victim blaming.

People can't know what they do not know.

Any education system, whether state-run or just how people learn from one another in society, eschews teaching critical thinking and pumps up ideology. Publics generally don't have power. And this is why I just said in another thread that I don't vote -- I'm not being given a choice, I'm not being empowered to participate; I'm being manipulated to use my mental, emotional, spiritual (moral) and physical energy to participate in my own domination and feel good about it.

The US is not a democracy, it's supposed to be a republic -- a government of the public, by the public and for the public. But it is not. People are not educated about how to critique it, participate in it, draw their equal benefits from it, or take it down or repair it when it is no longer a republic.

But the US does not function as a republic, therefore it is not one. Presidents override the constitution and start wars, or force participation in the marketplace with health insurance under "Obamacare," which penalizes people via income taxes if they refuse compliance.

Of course the republic will crumble, because the constitution and the bill of rights are not upheld by the government, and the public has no power over this. The public has no power to fight the government, but only to follow a revolutionary leader with sufficient military and persuasive power who, if and once the current structure is toppled, will impose a new government with new ways to shit on the people it promised to liberate -- classic bait and switch. That's how civil wars and revolutions generally end up, with old power more powerful, or new power shitty in new ways. I think the only way the US could possibly come out of its shit is if there were a leader with enough power to win a war that brings the country back to the constitution and bill of rights, including a judicial system that didn't "interpret" the constitution as something to get around rather than uphold; a congress that worked in the interest of individuals that make up the public and not corporations that are "interpreted" to be individuals; and presidents that stayed within their bounds of their functions. Not gonna happen.

Everything is a war. Government agencies are used to undermine citizens, to fuck with their heads, to fuck with everyone. Power just wants more power. Whatever upheaval is happening, along with all the technologies in play, is going to end up as a huge bait-and-switch, a switch to greater and worse power, and the "idiot" public HAS. NO. CHOICE, NO AGENCY, NO POWER, and will be used and harmed in the interests of those who do have power. That is what it means to be a victim. Not an idiot.

I and others can see all these things and be voices crying in the wilderness, but that doesn't protect me or us or anyone else. With the advanced technologies in existence, we can't do shit. I mean technologies so advanced that an army will drop their weapons because they all at the same time heard "God" tell them to. This is utter dystopia. And anyone who has the power and technology to overcome it is not likely to be a benevolent hero.

Sometimes it is easier and preferable to be an "idiot." Awareness sucks when one has no power to also effect change. Hope keeps one going. Humans can't really survive without it, even if it doesn't come true.

That's pretty much it. That's the main reason I don't talk about it anymore. It's a lost cause. But there are even more things going on that make it seem even more hopeless.

 

[ForcedLifeResistant]

@DJJE , what I'm quoting by you inspired the following response, but it is not directed at you. I am responding to the words, I don't care who they came from or whether you personally agree with them.

Also, I'm just talking into the wind here. What i have to say solves nothing. This thread solves nothing. Imo, all of us here are fired up in some way and can't do shit about it, same as the thread about "white privilege," any political thread, even threads complaining about the mental health system. We can all see bullshit, and can't do shit about it except be intellectually and spiritually (morally) offended.



Is there any public that's not "idiot"? That sounds like victim blaming.

People can't know what they do not know.

Any education system, whether state-run or just how people learn from one another in society, eschews teaching critical thinking and pumps up ideology. Publics generally don't have power. And this is why I just said in another thread that I don't vote -- I'm not being given a choice, I'm not being empowered to participate; I'm being manipulated to use my mental, emotional, spiritual (moral) and physical energy to participate in my own domination and feel good about it.

The US is not a democracy, it's supposed to be a republic -- a government of the public, by the public and for the public. But it is not. People are not educated about how to critique it, participate in it, draw their equal benefits from it, or take it down or repair it when it is no longer a republic.

But the US does not function as a republic, therefore it is not one. Presidents override the constitution and start wars, or force participation in the marketplace with health insurance under "Obamacare," which penalizes people via income taxes if they refuse compliance.

Of course the republic will crumble, because the constitution and the bill of rights are not upheld by the government, and the public has no power over this. The public has no power to fight the government, but only to follow a revolutionary leader with sufficient military and persuasive power who, if and once the current structure is toppled, will impose a new government with new ways to shit on the people it promised to liberate -- classic bait and switch. That's how civil wars and revolutions generally end up, with old power more powerful, or new power shitty in new ways. I think the only way the US could possibly come out of its shit is if there were a leader with enough power to win a war that brings the country back to the constitution and bill of rights, including a judicial system that didn't "interpret" the constitution as something to get around rather than uphold; a congress that worked in the interest of individuals that make up the public and not corporations that are "interpreted" to be individuals; and presidents that stayed within their bounds of their functions. Not gonna happen.

Everything is a war. Government agencies are used to undermine citizens, to fuck with their heads, to fuck with everyone. Power just wants more power. Whatever upheaval is happening, along with all the technologies in play, is going to end up as a huge bait-and-switch, a switch to greater and worse power, and the "idiot" public HAS. NO. CHOICE, NO AGENCY, NO POWER, and will be used and harmed in the interests of those who do have power. That is what it means to be a victim. Not an idiot.

I and others can see all these things and be voices crying in the wilderness, but that doesn't protect me or us or anyone else. With the advanced technologies in existence, we can't do shit. I mean technologies so advanced that an army will drop their weapons because they all at the same time heard "God" tell them to. This is utter dystopia. And anyone who has the power and technology to overcome it is not likely to be a benevolent hero.

Sometimes it is easier and preferable to be an "idiot." Awareness sucks when one has no power to also effect change. Hope keeps one going. Humans can't really survive without it, even if it doesn't come true.

This, more or less.

I'm naive and mentally unsound enough to try and find countercontrol measures to impliment, in the Skinnerian sense. The existential dread associated with seeing things this way, when coupled with all of my personal shortcomings, makes continuing to exist seem like sheer masochism. I don't feel as though this world has any more worth to me than I have to it. It's either CTB or dedicate my life to finding some way outmaneuver the wardens, opting for some form of escape over destruction. An impossible task, no doubt. But I am curious enough, for a time, to wonder how far I'll get before it's lights out.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

That's pretty much it. That's the main reason I don't talk about it anymore. It's a lost cause. But there are even more things going on that make it seem even more hopeless.

It's why I don't talk about it much too, save from the fundamentals which have in the past been my area of study.

And anyone who has the power and technology to overcome it is not likely to be a benevolent hero.

Unfortunately, I couldn't agree more.

 

[DJJE]

@DJJE , what I'm quoting by you inspired the following response, but it is not directed at you. I am responding to the words, I don't care who they came from or whether you personally agree with them.

Also, I'm just talking into the wind here. What i have to say solves nothing. This thread solves nothing. Imo, all of us here are fired up in some way and can't do shit about it, same as the thread about "white privilege," any political thread, even threads complaining about the mental health system. We can all see bullshit, and can't do shit about it except be intellectually and spiritually (morally) offended.



Is there any public that's not "idiot"? That sounds like victim blaming.

People can't know what they do not know.

Any education system, whether state-run or just how people learn from one another in society, eschews teaching critical thinking and pumps up ideology. Publics generally don't have power. And this is why I just said in another thread that I don't vote -- I'm not being given a choice, I'm not being empowered to participate; I'm being manipulated to use my mental, emotional, spiritual (moral) and physical energy to participate in my own domination and feel good about it.

The US is not a democracy, it's supposed to be a republic -- a government of the public, by the public and for the public. But it is not. People are not educated about how to critique it, participate in it, draw their equal benefits from it, or take it down or repair it when it is no longer a republic.

But the US does not function as a republic, therefore it is not one. Presidents override the constitution and start wars, or force participation in the marketplace with health insurance under "Obamacare," which penalizes people via income taxes if they refuse compliance.

Of course the republic will crumble, because the constitution and the bill of rights are not upheld by the government, and the public has no power over this. The public has no power to fight the government, but only to follow a revolutionary leader with sufficient military and persuasive power who, if and once the current structure is toppled, will impose a new government with new ways to shit on the people it promised to liberate -- classic bait and switch. That's how civil wars and revolutions generally end up, with old power more powerful, or new power shitty in new ways. I think the only way the US could possibly come out of its shit is if there were a leader with enough power to win a war that brings the country back to the constitution and bill of rights, including a judicial system that didn't "interpret" the constitution as something to get around rather than uphold; a congress that worked in the interest of individuals that make up the public and not corporations that are "interpreted" to be individuals; and presidents that stayed within their bounds of their functions. Not gonna happen.

Everything is a war. Government agencies are used to undermine citizens, to fuck with their heads, to fuck with everyone. Power just wants more power. Whatever upheaval is happening, along with all the technologies in play, is going to end up as a huge bait-and-switch, a switch to greater and worse power, and the "idiot" public HAS. NO. CHOICE, NO AGENCY, NO POWER, and will be used and harmed in the interests of those who do have power. That is what it means to be a victim. Not an idiot.

I and others can see all these things and be voices crying in the wilderness, but that doesn't protect me or us or anyone else. With the advanced technologies in existence, we can't do shit. I mean technologies so advanced that an army will drop their weapons because they all at the same time heard "God" tell them to. This is utter dystopia. And anyone who has the power and technology to overcome it is not likely to be a benevolent hero.

Sometimes it is easier and preferable to be an "idiot." Awareness sucks when one has no power to also effect change. Hope keeps one going. Humans can't really survive without it, even if it doesn't come true.

I may have been being a bit contrary.

Media outlets all around the world love to portary the American public as idiots. That's the message they try and put out. Russian news today has had wall to all coverage of America in meltdown.

Personally, I hate it when one side calls another side idiots (or anything else) without questioning why people have that view.

I've seen a lot of posts today saying that Biden voters are more likely to have gone to college. So fucking what, are people weren't in a position to go to higher education when they were 18 less of a part of US democracy? That's rhetorical. Its just a view that gets me angry with those on the left who believe they are superior failling to examine what people on the right are hoping for. They aren't all racists red neck idiots.

The USA is still a great democracy thats done many great things, but everyone is throwing too much shit at each other to realise that. In many countries (China, Russia, Iran) you aren't allowed to criticise government. Being able to call the leader a walker massive freedom. Everyone needs to calm down a bit, look at what other peoples needs are, give each other some concessions and remember that its largely external forces trying to pull them apart.

The biggest problem I see, is that in a capitalist country that thrives off competion, the two political parties appear to be rife with cronyism preventing them from being effective, but having two parties is still better than 1.