Unpopular opinion: Nihilism still doesn't reflect reality. Philosophical pessimism is more honest.

[niki wonoto]

I used to be a nihilist (and even still somewhat do sometimes, when necessary or required to be). But as the time goes by, and I get much older now (I'm almost 40), and seeing the reality of our world, society, life, & existence, I've now turned into a pessimist (not just a simple pessimist, but more into philosophical pessimism, you can google & look it up if you want).

Nowadays lately, I've noticed that a lot of people mostly got into what's called an "Optimistic Nihilism". But I strongly disagree. And here is my main argument:

Unless if you're lucky or fortunate, a lot of people or even most of us here usually won't live a so-called perfect life (eg: successful, rich, wealthy, famous, popular, living the dreams, have lots of friends, healthy, or even just to be completely happy). A lot of people still have to toil away just to survive everyday. Many of us have to live with a lot of problems, and have to go through pain & sufferings almost everyday (I'm not living in the first world country, but I assume there are perhaps quite many people here who live quite a comfortable & even a privileged life there, so that's also counted as being lucky/fortunate).

I've tried to adhere & practice nihilism (& even that so-called optimistic nihilism). But in reality, it's not that easy & simple in practice. When your life is far from perfect, and even somewhat can be considered a failure, with a lot of problems after problems almost everyday/on a daily basis, and when things are stressful, & even depressing, to be honest, I just can't simply just 'nihilist away' all those harsh reality. No, again, life is not that easy, simple, nor optimistic, in reality (unless again if you're lucky or fortunate as I've explained above).

I mean, sure, I know and I understand, & even agree, that in the grand scheme of things, everything is meaningless, so it's like we're "free to do anything we want", right? No. In reality, we are *NOT* free to do what we want/like, or hope, dream, expect, etc etc etc. Real life / real world / reality is very limiting in what we can do (or be). Let me ask you for example: How many of you are trapped everyday in a job or work that you don't like? And that's just one main example. I still even haven't mentioned about if you have chronic pain/disease/illness for example, it will obviously become a lot/much worse.

I think people like me also have our own valid (& logical, rational) reasons to be a pessimist (or agreeing with philosophical pessimism), when looking at the world, life, (human's) society, existence, & basically the cold, harsh, cruel reality around us everyday (I still even haven't discussed about depressive realism, antinatalism, pro-mortalism, efilism, suicide, etc etc).

 

[again_noidea]

I used to be a nihilist (and even still somewhat do sometimes, when necessary or required to be). But as the time goes by, and I get much older now (I'm almost 40), and seeing the reality of our world, society, life, & existence, I've now turned into a pessimist (not just a simple pessimist, but more into philosophical pessimism, you can google & look it up if you want).

Nowadays lately, I've noticed that a lot of people mostly got into what's called an "Optimistic Nihilism". But I strongly disagree. And here is my main argument:

Unless if you're lucky or fortunate, a lot of people or even most of us here usually won't live a so-called perfect life (eg: successful, rich, wealthy, famous, popular, living the dreams, have lots of friends, healthy, or even just to be completely happy). A lot of people still have to toil away just to survive everyday. Many of us have to live with a lot of problems, and have to go through pain & sufferings almost everyday (I'm not living in the first world country, but I assume there are perhaps quite many people here who live quite a comfortable & even a privileged life there, so that's also counted as being lucky/fortunate).

I've tried to adhere & practice nihilism (& even that so-called optimistic nihilism). But in reality, it's not that easy & simple in practice. When your life is far from perfect, and even somewhat can be considered a failure, with a lot of problems after problems almost everyday/on a daily basis, and when things are stressful, & even depressing, to be honest, I just can't simply just 'nihilist away' all those harsh reality. No, again, life is not that easy, simple, nor optimistic, in reality (unless again if you're lucky or fortunate as I've explained above).

I mean, sure, I know and I understand, & even agree, that in the grand scheme of things, everything is meaningless, so it's like we're "free to do anything we want", right? No. In reality, we are *NOT* free to do what we want/like, or hope, dream, expect, etc etc etc. Real life / real world / reality is very limiting in what we can do (or be). Let me ask you for example: How many of you are trapped everyday in a job or work that you don't like? And that's just one main example. I still even haven't mentioned about if you have chronic pain/disease/illness for example, it will obviously become a lot/much worse.

I think people like me also have our own valid (& logical, rational) reasons to be a pessimist (or agreeing with philosophical pessimism), when looking at the world, life, (human's) society, existence, & basically the cold, harsh, cruel reality around us everyday (I still even haven't discussed about depressive realism, antinatalism, pro-mortalism, efilism, suicide, etc etc).

Read some Schopenhauer, you might "like" it.

 

[fruit-loops]

When you talk about philosophical pessimism I suppose that you are referring at, for example, the vision of Schopenhauer's pessimism and the absurd and empty wish for life wishes?

Like as you, I also think that the "optimistic nihilism" is almost impracticable.. when you feel the emptiness of being, of the wishes, of the life, there is no way to live it "as it is", in a kind of empty hedonism, even more if you you doesn't come from a rich family and so you have to struggle with working and solve basic life problem for the great majority of your day to day and you can have..

Anyway, if it would it be possible I'd give a try to the hedonism, at least for a time, but my life and my mood doesn't allow it.. last wish can be only to have the self-power of taking the last thing you own, your life...

 

[FuneralCry]

Yes, I understand what you mean. Of course everything is essentially meaningless, we will all die and be forgotten, nothing does matter. I do think about this fact a lot, but I do understand it is hard to always think this way.
Even know to me things do not matter long term, at the same time they do in every day life as we are affected and limited by our circumstances. I certainly am a pessimist, and I see this as rational as this world is full of suffering. There is no limit as to how bad life can get.

 

[BluesRunTheGame]

Read some Schopenhauer, you might "like" it.

 

[niki wonoto]

Any other thoughts on this subject matter, perhaps?

 

[finalexit]

Totally feel the same way. I don't believe in life being what you make it / making your own meaning, as life itself can be extremely limiting and out of our control

 

[motel rooms]

Nowadays lately, I've noticed that a lot of people mostly got into what's called an "Optimistic Nihilism". But I strongly disagree.

Optimistic nihilism is laughable. The term itself is ridiculous. Doesn't optimism imply positive meaning? How can one reconcile that with the view that everything is meaningless?

I used to be a nihilist (and even still somewhat do sometimes, when necessary or required to be).

Were you really a nihilist? Did you really reject all moral principles & believe that knowledge & communication are impossible?

 

[deflationary]

I agree that optimistic nihilism is silly. Why do we have to try and turn every unpalatable fact about life into sunshine and rainbows? "One must imagine Sisyphus happy" kind of shit. It just ends up looking delusional.

 

[TheHatedOne]

Pessimism is just you being honest with yourself and seeing life for what it actually is.

 

[motel rooms]

"One must imagine Sisyphus happy" kind of shit.

When Sisyphus acknowledges the futility of his task and the certainty of his fate, he is freed to realize the absurdity of his situation and to reach a state of contented acceptance(?!?!?!) All is well, one must imagine Sisyphus happy. JFC.

 

[deflationary]

When Sisyphus acknowledges the futility of his task and the certainty of his fate, he is freed to realize the absurdity of his situation and to reach a state of contented acceptance(?!?!?!) All is well, one must imagine Sisyphus happy. JFC.

Reading that piece of shit book was one of the must frustrating experiences of my life. (Hyperbole but just barely ) Camus needed to be slapped.

 

[motel rooms]

Reading that piece of shit book was one of the must frustrating experiences of my life. (Hyperbole but just barely ) Camus needed to be slapped.

He needed to be force-fed a piss-stained piece of Sisyphus's rock & told to imagine it's fucking foie gras.

 

[deflationary]

He needed to be force-fed a piss-stained piece of Sisyphus's rock & told to imagine it's fucking foie gras.

Or that

 

[Vex]

I agree that optimistic nihilism is silly. Why do we have to try and turn every unpalatable fact about life into sunshine and rainbows? "One must imagine Sisyphus happy" kind of shit. It just ends up looking delusional.

I don't subscribe to it, but I can understand the notion of Sisyphus being happy.

Unlike everyone else, Sisyphus knows what the future holds. His life is not meaningless or without purpose.

He doesn't have to worry about losing his job. He pushes a rock. Doesn't have to worry about falling ill. He pushes a rock. He doesn't have to worry about violence, or bad luck, or homelessness. He pushes a rock.

He isn't burdened by the thought of a pointless existence.

Unlike us he has a goal mandated by the gods themselves; an ultimate purpose set in stone without change.

He has something to live for even if it is just pushing a rock uphill everyday.

 

[blueclover_.]

You seem to confuse Optimistic Nihilism with just Nihilism. Your vision is literally Pessimistic Nihilism explained.

 

[motel rooms]

He isn't burdened by the thought of a pointless existence.

Unlike us he has a goal mandated by the gods themselves; an ultimate purpose set in stone without change.

Forever pushing a huge boulder up a steep hill & being forced to watch it roll back down it is the epitome of torturous pointlessness. The gods didn't give Sisyphus a purpose; they punished him for trying to trick them in the cruelest way imaginable, they are sadistically tormenting both his body & soul. Camus' essay on Sisyphus is a pathetically executed, utter failure.

 

[deflationary]

I don't subscribe to it, but I can understand the notion of Sisyphus being happy.

Unlike everyone else, Sisyphus knows what the future holds. His life is not meaningless or without purpose.

He doesn't have to worry about losing his job. He pushes a rock. Doesn't have to worry about falling ill. He pushes a rock. He doesn't have to worry about violence, or bad luck, or homelessness. He pushes a rock.

He isn't burdened by the thought of a pointless existence.

Unlike us he has a goal mandated by the gods themselves; an ultimate purpose set in stone without change.

He has something to live for even if it is just pushing a rock uphill everyday.

Maybe it would work for Sisyphus if he was lobotomized and blessed with the kind of psychology that could find meaning and contentment in endlessly pushing a rock up a hill, but Sisyphus is supposed to be a stand-in for all of us in Camus version of the story. So he's saying that *we* must find our existence meaningful, even though in the end it's as absurd as Sissy's fate. And he calls that rebellion, even though it's the most abject resignation to what evolution has designed us to do anyway, against our better judgment.

But if you're the type of person that can find meaning and satisfaction in pushing that rock or life has enough other distractions for you to make the rock-pushing parts tolerable, by all means, have at it. If life is pleasurable enough, then who needs a grand meaning. But if your life is suffering, then there's nothing noble in forever pushing that rock. In such a case, if Sissy was smart, he'd place his head in front of that rock as it was rolling down the hill.

 

[motel rooms]

In such a case, if Sissy was smart, he'd place his head in front of that rock as it was rolling down the hill.

Don't call him a sissy, he's a lobotomized macho hero!

The most frustrating thing about reading that damn essay is that you want Camus to somehow pull off what he set out to do, to impress you by coming up with a brilliantly original new perspective & make you have an epiphany. This is what he gives you instead:

 

[deflationary]

Don't call him a sissy, he's a lobotomized macho hero!

The most frustrating thing about reading that damn essay is that you want Camus to somehow pull off what he set out to do, to impress you by coming up with a brilliantly original new perspective & make you have an epiphany. This is what he gives you instead:

As far as I remember, it was okay an okay read while it was engaged with diagnosing the problem. But once it got to offering an actual solution, it got really dumb really fast. As so often happens, really. Having solutions is dumb.

"I sincerely believe that if you think there's a solution, you're part of the problem."

- George Carlin

 

[Rational man]

I used to be a nihilist (and even still somewhat do sometimes, when necessary or required to be). But as the time goes by, and I get much older now (I'm almost 40), and seeing the reality of our world, society, life, & existence, I've now turned into a pessimist (not just a simple pessimist, but more into philosophical pessimism, you can google & look it up if you want).

Nowadays lately, I've noticed that a lot of people mostly got into what's called an "Optimistic Nihilism". But I strongly disagree. And here is my main argument:

Unless if you're lucky or fortunate, a lot of people or even most of us here usually won't live a so-called perfect life (eg: successful, rich, wealthy, famous, popular, living the dreams, have lots of friends, healthy, or even just to be completely happy). A lot of people still have to toil away just to survive everyday. Many of us have to live with a lot of problems, and have to go through pain & sufferings almost everyday (I'm not living in the first world country, but I assume there are perhaps quite many people here who live quite a comfortable & even a privileged life there, so that's also counted as being lucky/fortunate).

I've tried to adhere & practice nihilism (& even that so-called optimistic nihilism). But in reality, it's not that easy & simple in practice. When your life is far from perfect, and even somewhat can be considered a failure, with a lot of problems after problems almost everyday/on a daily basis, and when things are stressful, & even depressing, to be honest, I just can't simply just 'nihilist away' all those harsh reality. No, again, life is not that easy, simple, nor optimistic, in reality (unless again if you're lucky or fortunate as I've explained above).

I mean, sure, I know and I understand, & even agree, that in the grand scheme of things, everything is meaningless, so it's like we're "free to do anything we want", right? No. In reality, we are *NOT* free to do what we want/like, or hope, dream, expect, etc etc etc. Real life / real world / reality is very limiting in what we can do (or be). Let me ask you for example: How many of you are trapped everyday in a job or work that you don't like? And that's just one main example. I still even haven't mentioned about if you have chronic pain/disease/illness for example, it will obviously become a lot/much worse.

I think people like me also have our own valid (& logical, rational) reasons to be a pessimist (or agreeing with philosophical pessimism), when looking at the world, life, (human's) society, existence, & basically the cold, harsh, cruel reality around us everyday (I still even haven't discussed about depressive realism, antinatalism, pro-mortalism, efilism, sui

But i am certainly a realist regarding me, life, etc. Essentially, the world is shit like. I dont see much in the way of optimism. Humankind is essentially and emotionally bunkrupt. People are self-serving selfish uncaring. Stoopid people still chase the dream which apparently equates to success and happy. But perfection is just fable isnt it ?. Theres no such thing !.

 

[Vex]

Don't call him a sissy, he's a lobotomized macho hero!

The most frustrating thing about reading that damn essay is that you want Camus to somehow pull off what he set out to do, to impress you by coming up with a brilliantly original new perspective & make you have an epiphany. This is what he gives you instead:

You are misunderstanding what I'm saying. Camus is comparing Sisyphus

Don't call him a sissy, he's a lobotomized macho hero!

The most frustrating thing about reading that damn essay is that you want Camus to somehow pull off what he set out to do, to impress you by coming up with a brilliantly original new perspective & make you have an epiphany. This is what he gives you instead:

I understand what Camus is saying.

He is equating Sisyphus is toils with the lives of people. I am not. I am saying that somehow, a human life is even more pointless than the life of Sisyphus.

But, this is only my take on the matter. I'm not claiming to be correct or even that my opinion is completely logical.

Merely a thought exercise.

 

[motel rooms]

You are misunderstanding what I'm saying. Camus is comparing Sisyphus

I understand what Camus is saying.

He is equating Sisyphus is toils with the lives of people. I am not. I am saying that somehow, a human life is even more pointless than the life of Sisyphus.

But, this is only my take on the matter. I'm not claiming to be correct or even that my opinion is completely logical.

Merely a thought exercise.

I think you meant to quote @deflationary's comment, not mine:

Maybe it would work for Sisyphus if he was lobotomized and blessed with the kind of psychology that could find meaning and contentment in endlessly pushing a rock up a hill, but Sisyphus is supposed to be a stand-in for all of us in Camus version of the story. So he's saying that *we* must find our existence meaningful, even though in the end it's as absurd as Sissy's fate. And he calls that rebellion, even though it's the most abject resignation to what evolution has designed us to do anyway, against our better judgment.

But if you're the type of person that can find meaning and satisfaction in pushing that rock or life has enough other distractions for you to make the rock-pushing parts tolerable, by all means, have at it. If life is pleasurable enough, then who needs a grand meaning. But if your life is suffering, then there's nothing noble in forever pushing that rock. In such a case, if Sissy was smart, he'd place his head in front of that rock as it was rolling down the hill.

 

[pulsar]

Mental masturbation. I hate thinking. I Don't Want To Think Anymore. How can I get some awesome respiratory failure? Thinking sucks. I think too damn much. I'm tired of thinking and stuff.

 

[DonTellMeToStayAlive]

Mental masturbation. I hate thinking. I Don't Want To Think Anymore. How can I get some awesome respiratory failure? Thinking sucks. I think too damn much. I'm tired of thinking and stuff.

Honestly same. When I look back at the past few years where my want to die and "interest in suicide related philosophy" solidified, I see an initial enthusiasm in the want-todie/right-to-die philosophies and the ash community archive, but all the philosophy later turned into semi-conscious attempts to convince people of my wish to die. I speak about suicide all the time irl, can't go five minutes without bringing suicide into the conversation. It hurts social relationships. I feel that this talking about suicide, reading philosophy about suicide and sharing it, all this is (at least in part, a significant part) for me a cry for help. But not the kind of cry for help that is commonly thought of with regard to suicidal individuals. I am not crying for help with living (not always, not entirely- I have sought some help with living because I just couldn't get myself to ctb- it is the psychological thing that gets me the most). I am not crying for help because I want to live, and I need help with living- I am crying for help with dying, because I want to die but I can't do it. I often yearn for a friend irl who can help me with ctb-ing (and maybe I can help them too). But this crying for help might backfire- among people who do understand my want to die as genuine, none can help me die, either because they won't help me because of objections to suicide and helping with suicide, or because they can't help me because of practical issues; among those who do not recognise my desire to die as genuine, this crying for help just seems to come across as crying for help with living(to be fair, some of these people have genuinely tried to help me with living, and I do appreciate and respect them for that, but I don't know if this will work out (it hasn't been working out anyway lol), because I do genuinely not want to live, and I do genuinely want to die.


I recognise this, and though I have been unsuccessful at it, I hope to shut up to pro-lifers irl, maybe speak more here, and slowly lessen that too ad shut up forever, hopefully getting the guts to ctb, and hopefully succeed.

Till that happens, please bear with me.

 

[pulsar]

I would be words can't describe how much I hate buses. Buses and grocery shopping. Do you ever just want to hurl people out of the way at grocery stores? You know the ones standing with their carts right in the middle of the aisle? I do. Get in get out thats how I prefer grocery shopping when I can ever bring myself to go.