Too suicidal for a psychiatric hospital

[theresonlyonewayout]

So, I'll make this as brief as possible lol. A couple of weeks ago I was picked up by police after being 'missing' for a few hours, hallucinating, trying to pick up imaginary plumbing pipe in the middle of a busy country Lane. Fuck knows how I get there, before I took the OD I had walked into isolated fields so I couldn't be helped too soon but hey, there I was picking up my pipe. I had two empty sleeves of Olanzapine in my pocket (my antiemetic) and had some SN I had decanted into foil, which they didn't find. I only remember small snippets of what happened after. I went to a&e by ambulance, had two mental health assessments, I was too out of it for the first one and don't remember the second. They wanted to section me again my mum fought them and I came home.

So, that's the background now to the point - I had a meeting with CMHT a couple of days ago and the psychologist said to me that hospital is only helpful for people in short term mental health crisis, that my risks went up in hospital and that if I want to kill myself there's nothing they can do to stop me.

I guess I'm a little confused - I mean, I know the hospital local to me is in trouble over in ward deaths at the moment but it sounds an awful lot like I'm being refused because I'm too risky for their stats and reputation. Now don't get me wrong, I don't want admission, I guess I'm just coming to the realisation, reading between the lines, that this is them saying - 'I'm sorry, we can't help you anymore but we aren't allowed to say that and so we will offer pointless shit until you go away'

Anyone else have an opinion?

FYI - ODing on Olanzapine will mess up the rest of the plan!! But at least no one thought to ask about the SN!!

 

[zeroshark]

wow, shit. i've never heard of a dr responding that way (admittedly i'm in the US not UK.) how are you feeling about that response vs the standard one most of us are probably used to?
i actually wish someone would say this to me (no way to tell if they'd be saying it because they actually heard/believed me and responded honestly, or because they just don't have the time and want me to fuck off lmao.) mid breakdown today i tried to explain to my partner that i am severely mentally ill and have been for a long time, that i have gotten treatment but my illness doesn't respond/worsens, that i have begun to lose my ability to function as an independent adult, and that i don't want to continue to suffer in pain while watching myself deteriorate. ime people can often grasp this in cases of physical illness, but insist that all suicide is preventable and if you haven't found treatment for mental illness that works yet you just need to keep looking harder... potentially for decades, because there's no point at which you're allowed to say "yep, i gave it a shot, but i'm ready to be done now."
(disclaimer: not trying to like...compare my experience to a terminal cancer patient, pretend i can speak to that perspective or anything like that. apologies if this comes off that way or otherwise tasteless/offensive.)

 

[theresonlyonewayout]

wow, shit. i've never heard of a dr responding that way (admittedly i'm in the US not UK.) how are you feeling about that response vs the standard one most of us are probably used to?
i actually wish someone would say this to me (no way to tell if they'd be saying it because they actually heard/believed me and responded honestly, or because they just don't have the time and want me to fuck off lmao.) mid breakdown today i tried to explain to my partner that i am severely mentally ill and have been for a long time, that i have gotten treatment but my illness doesn't respond/worsens, that i have begun to lose my ability to function as an independent adult, and that i don't want to continue to suffer in pain while watching myself deteriorate. ime people can often grasp this in cases of physical illness, but insist that all suicide is preventable and if you haven't found treatment for mental illness that works yet you just need to keep looking harder... potentially for decades, because there's no point at which you're allowed to say "yep, i gave it a shot, but i'm ready to be done now."
(disclaimer: not trying to like...compare my experience to a terminal cancer patient, pretend i can speak to that perspective or anything like that. apologies if this comes off that way or otherwise tasteless/offensive.)

Hey zeroshark, thanks for your input. I get what you mean isn't it sad that we have to compare ourselves to cancer sufferers in order for people to understand us. I mean, there's certainly more help, effective treatment, research and compassion for someone diagnosed with cancer. Cancer sufferers have a choice to be treated or not, to die with dignity or to battle if they choose if they try a bunch of treatments and they don't work - they are allowed to die in peace and are often celebrated. 'So and so died today after a brave fight with cancer' etc. People who have to resort to killing themselves are swept under the rug and ignored. Not that I'm saying cancer is better just different.

I can totally relate to your deteriorating and not wanting to lose independence and become a burden. It's a fine line between holding on to try to improve and holding on too long so everyone can see how shit you've become. No one wants that do they?!

My diagnosis gives me trust issues and I just wish we could have an open conversation with professionals, like on here. It's so frustrating, I'm soooo exhausted and I don't want to commence on another pointless talking therapy. If they just openly said - we can't help anymore then fine but that would never happen. It all has to be secretive and 'naughty'. I've been done with life for a while now, I guess I'm just waiting for everyone else to get on the same page. I really don't want to hurt anyone but I can keep living my miserable life to avoid hurting people. My psychologist seemed really defensive/frustrated after my attempt and I just feel like they wish I'd just piss off also.

I think there is a time that we are allowed to say "I gave it a real good try but I'm done now" the difference is, we aren't allowed to say it out loud.

 

[theresonlyonewayout]

My post in reply is awaiting approval, not sure what I've said that is too controversial, I'm sure I'll find out but just wanted to add this - everyone says that suicide is preventable and to seek professional help. Ok, but what about when the professionals are saying we can't help nor prevent? It's hypocritical and confusing. My post is much longer and replies to you @zeroshark - I'm not ignoring your kind reply.

 

[Zebedee]

I understand what you're saying and agree with you, I've had similar experiences myself. While I was in a psych ward earlier this year, there was one guy who had stabbed himself several times, he was dropped off by armed police and released 3 days later. I guess there's only so much they can do, but at the same time it often feels like they don't really give a damn.

 

[JustAMatterOfTime]

Palliative care exists for people with physical diseases that are beyond hope, should exist for mental ones too.

 

[WaterHemlock]

I'd just read an article, not sure I can find it now. But it was about depression as a terminal illness. It was coming from the point of view of a doctor trying to treat and the ethics involved and how the doctor copes with the grief of losing a patient.

I wonder what palliative care would look like in terminal depression?

 

[Nurse T]

Yes, if they think you have capacity and you CTB they will say you had capacity, all help was offered but if you really wanted to do it then there was no stopping you!
I guess if they put everyone in hospital that wanted to CTB or was even close to it they would need hundreds more hospitals.
The prob lies in community care and the lack of help to prevent people getting to that point or looking at the reasons why they have ended up the way they have. After Friday apparently I was found on a live railway and admittedly my partner agreed to have me home, but they discharged me. I'm so glad because now I can find another way and join my beautiful boy in the afterlife x

 

[Livingvsdying25]

Sorry to hear that happened to you.

buttt yeah that happened to me as well. Spefically like 4 years ago when I still believed in the mental health system. (In Canada)

I would go in tryna explain the chronic nature of my suicidality and the extremes or whatever of it (like even tho it's chronic still feeling like its important get help right away or whatever)

In 3 days I went to 2 hospitals. Twice to 1. I was turned away each time.

Same reasoning... I guess after all these years I just see that that is the mental health system as it is and finding help for chronic suicidality.. is difficult...

And I have a bunch of issues to deal with so on the professional level I usually just stick to dealing with those... I don't think I believe anyone can help me with the suicidality anymore.

I think I've just figured that they'd go away of im dealing with other shit... not really... but I have to pretend so to get by.

 

[zeroshark]

Hey zeroshark, thanks for your input. I get what you mean isn't it sad that we have to compare ourselves to cancer sufferers in order for people to understand us. I mean, there's certainly more help, effective treatment, research and compassion for someone diagnosed with cancer. Cancer sufferers have a choice to be treated or not, to die with dignity or to battle if they choose if they try a bunch of treatments and they don't work - they are allowed to die in peace and are often celebrated. 'So and so died today after a brave fight with cancer' etc. People who have to resort to killing themselves are swept under the rug and ignored. Not that I'm saying cancer is better just different.

I can totally relate to your deteriorating and not wanting to lose independence and become a burden. It's a fine line between holding on to try to improve and holding on too long so everyone can see how shit you've become. No one wants that do they?!

My diagnosis gives me trust issues and I just wish we could have an open conversation with professionals, like on here. It's so frustrating, I'm soooo exhausted and I don't want to commence on another pointless talking therapy. If they just openly said - we can't help anymore then fine but that would never happen. It all has to be secretive and 'naughty'. I've been done with life for a while now, I guess I'm just waiting for everyone else to get on the same page. I really don't want to hurt anyone but I can keep living my miserable life to avoid hurting people. My psychologist seemed really defensive/frustrated after my attempt and I just feel like they wish I'd just piss off also.

I think there is a time that we are allowed to say "I gave it a real good try but I'm done now" the difference is, we aren't allowed to say it out loud.

I think one of my frustrations is the way we are blamed both by professionals and peers if treatment fails us. If we CTB, it's because we're just so pigheadedly determined to be depressed. The treatments themselves are actually 100% effective (give it another year, or 5, or 50), but they only work if you really believe it. If it doesn't work, that just means you didn't believe in it hard enough. The shifting blame, defensiveness and eagerness to get rid of us all go hand in hand as a defense mechanism so people can keep believing we have mental health all figured out and if it ever happens to you there's a guarantee they can fix you, 100%, if you just keep looking and try hard enough, and wouldn't that be comforting.
(It reminds me of growing up evangelical and telling people if you accept god and pray to him then you'll experience his presence in your life, and when people said they'd done that and hadn't had any divine revelation they were told "well, you can't pray with disbelief in your heart.")

Also I think I initially posted my reply pretty much right after your thread went up and it was awaiting approval for ages so it was probably whatever offensive thing i said that got you under post approval too . sorry about that.

I'd just read an article, not sure I can find it now. But it was about depression as a terminal illness. It was coming from the point of view of a doctor trying to treat and the ethics involved and how the doctor copes with the grief of losing a patient.

I wonder what palliative care would look like in terminal depression?

I have next to no experience with palliative care, but would be very interested in exploring the impact of viewing depression as a potentially terminal illness. Could we provide proveably better outcomes in terminal cases, especially wrt end of life experience of the 'patient' and the grief of their loved ones? How have the countries who have legal right to die for mental illness approached this, and do they have any data on those outcomes?

 

[theresonlyonewayout]

I think one of my frustrations is the way we are blamed both by professionals and peers if treatment fails us. If we CTB, it's because we're just so pigheadedly determined to be depressed. The treatments themselves are actually 100% effective (give it another year, or 5, or 50), but they only work if you really believe it. If it doesn't work, that just means you didn't believe in it hard enough. The shifting blame, defensiveness and eagerness to get rid of us all go hand in hand as a defense mechanism so people can keep believing we have mental health all figured out and if it ever happens to you there's a guarantee they can fix you, 100%, if you just keep looking and try hard enough, and wouldn't that be comforting.
(It reminds me of growing up evangelical and telling people if you accept god and pray to him then you'll experience his presence in your life, and when people said they'd done that and hadn't had any divine revelation they were told "well, you can't pray with disbelief in your heart.")

Also I think I initially posted my reply pretty much right after your thread went up and it was awaiting approval for ages so it was probably whatever offensive thing i said that got you under post approval too . sorry about that.



I have next to no experience with palliative care, but would be very interested in exploring the impact of viewing depression as a potentially terminal illness. Could we provide proveably better outcomes in terminal cases, especially wrt end of life experience of the 'patient' and the grief of their loved ones? How have the countries who have legal right to die for mental illness approached this, and do they have any data on those outcomes?

Lol no worries, it got posted eventually. Just didn't any you think 'rude' cos I didn't reply lol.

As I was reading what you had written I was thinking to myself - sounds like a cult then I got to the church bit (I know religion is not technically a cult - don't wanna start that argument lol). You're absolutely right, it's another way to blame the victim and not take any responsibility. I was in an abusive relationship and hell - it feels like I still am sometimes.

The other hand washing one they use is that '...it would be unethical to re-traumatise you...' or 'you're too unstable to do trauma work' so we will spend months and months treating the symptoms but surely if no trauma treatment is don't then the symptoms won't go away?!?!

I despair, all I know is that I'm too tired to fight anymore.

I'm sorry to hear that it's just as bad in Canada. I wish I could take away everyone's shit but life doesn't work that way unfortunately.

 

[Mentalmick]

I was told something similar while I was in hospital. She asked if hospital had made me any better, I said no, not yet and she told me hospital can't help me. Which basically means we don't want you in hospital because you're too hard to treat so fuck off back into the community and suffer there, and please don't kill yourself while in hospital, it's way too much paperwork and you may give the staff PTSD mopping up the blood.

 

[theresonlyonewayout]

I was told something similar while I was in hospital. She asked if hospital had made me any better, I said no, not yet and she told me hospital can't help me. Which basically means we don't want you in hospital because you're too hard to treat so fuck off back into the community and suffer there, and please don't kill yourself while in hospital, it's way too much paperwork and you may give the staff PTSD mopping up the blood.

Fuck off out of hospital then fuck off some more cos community can't deal. Carry on fucking off but don't kill yourself here - go over there and do it quietly. We can't help you but you're not allowed to kill yourself. Please suffer in silence. Sounds familiar @Mentalmick.

 

[Soc]

You will find you are bounced between different agencies of the NHS when you attempt to CTB. It also depends on the local area you are in and what mental health services they have avaialable. A&E really can't do much to support you but police can use it as a 'safe place' to take you to clear themselves from the responsibility.