To the religious people on here

[xhelx]

Why do you believe in your religion? And do you ever blame God (or the equivalent for you) for whatever goes on in your life? How could an atheist start believing in something?

 

[Average Joe]

Hey, I was raised under Catholocism, I started to experience mental illness around 13/14 and then began the attempts to end my life. Back then, I'd have blamed God. I often did and sometimes still feel that God has forsaken me or is testing me but it's too much.

I've began getting back into Christianity and I pray and pour my heart out but I fear that I am alone.

How could an atheist start believing in something?

That's a tricky one, I understand a lot of people hate religious folk for preaching and I tend to let people make up their own minds.
I guess there's some deep reflection needed before you start to believe. But it also adds another question, what do YOU want to believe?

Sending hugs <3

 

[xhelx]

But it also adds another question, what do YOU want to believe?

I was raised orthodox, but I never felt any actual connection to it. It's the only religion I've ever known tho. I guess now I just want the comfort of believing that there's someone who could 'fix' everything, be it God or someone else

 

[WishfulNeanderthal]

Im a norse pagan and a huge skeptic when it comes to religion, but here's my take on it:

Why do I believe in it?
I don't believe in it logically, rather its a hopeful wish, that its real. I haven't seen signs, well maybe emotional ones but no physical ones. I believe Gods(s) are a manifestation of a collective belief, belief creates god and is fed by it (Like an "egregore")

Do I ever blame god(s)?
No, I do not believe that Gods can enter our physical domain and has no power (or VERY limited) power to our realm, instead they reside in the afterlife, where they do have power.

How could an atheist start believing?
Thats a personal thing I think, as you can see I don't have a very conventional belief and I believe every persons belief or disbelief is personal to them. If you feel like something is the right choice, as long as ur not hurting others, then I think its valid.

 

[cemeteryismyhome]

Why do you believe in your religion? And do you ever blame God (or the equivalent for you) for whatever goes on in your life? How could an atheist start believing in something?

For me that's a really deep question with a very long boring answer. I was raised Jehovah's Witness, believed in it strongly, went through the heartbreak of realizing it was a deception, then went through years of what I guess could be called atheist or materialist. After a while I was overwhelmed by the strangeness of life. Too many things are just plain weird and bizarre; there's something going on. I was raised to hate the Catholic Church as a machination of the Devil. And now I'm Catholic, although I can't really believe there's a heaven for me, somehow I'm a bystander (I know that's not correct Catholic belief). The phrase "blame God" is, to me, a deep philosophical cave for exploration. I think, to say "yeah God is a real jerk" is too superficial, and, I think to say "no it's all our fault" is also too superficial. It's all a mind-bender.

 

[Sir Otwudcul]

Why do you believe in your religion? And do you ever blame God (or the equivalent for you) for whatever goes on in your life? How could an atheist start believing in something?

I am a fellow atheist and I think that people believe in their gods because they bring order to chaos and uncertainty of everyday life. It also helps to connect with other people, because having a religion usually means being a part of a community. However, what it also does to a person is clouds the mind, disfiguring the harsh reality of existence through a prism of religious doctrines. So, while believing in a deity of some kind certainly has its pros, it subsequently forces you to live a life full of lies, delusions and self-foolery, which begs the question: if there's any sense in living such a life at all?

Such is my opinion and I do not intend to offend anyone by making it known here.

 

[SVEN]

I guess I don't really believe in a religion, but God. And no, I don't believe He fucked up my life, as far as that goes I'm a self made failure. Instead of asking why He doesn't fix all that we mess up, I ask why we choose self centred, selfish acquisitive, greedy lifes which leave most of the world in poverty and hunger when there's plenty to go round. And, that is a choice.
Like the last poster, I'm not trying to annoy or provoke anyone, far less enter into a debate about unprovable stuff.

 

[FoxSauce]

Well I still have my doubts about God, mostly like why can people be with queer people or form a freindship?

Theres also a part that believes in good, but I dont think he could take a sinner thats fucked up more times that I can count.

 

[bankai]

I stopped believing in my God when I was a child. I'm a Christian. I would recommend everyone to watch this video to understand how silly the concept is. Hopefully you have a good laugh as well.

 

[imtiredasf]

I stopped believing in my God when I was a child. I'm a Christian. I would recommend everyone to watch this video to understand how silly the concept is. Hopefully you have a good laugh as well.

I like to think George is down there, smiling up at us. What a funny guy.

 

[bankai]

I like to think George is down there, smiling up at us. What a funny guy.

When he says you have to stand in awe and just staggers back. Man, you can be poking me with a hot iron and I'll still be laughing.

 

[EternalShore]

I believe in religion because I find it more exciting than a world without it~ I believe in Christianity because the resurrection has the most proof for it than any other miracle, and I've been ultimately disappointed with every other religion I've had interest in~ I believe in my denomination of Christianity because I believe it best fits what the words of the Bible say~ my explanations are short because I'd rather not argue rn, but if anyone is genuinely curious, you can ask too~ :)

I'm not feeling depressed at this very moment (I will again soon, don't worry), but ig, I've definitely felt as tho I have been cursed by Him or Satan from my birth and definitely more so over the last 7 years~ :(

for atheists, it really depends on the person, but for them to believe in anything, they have to have their hearts open to believing in something else~

 

[malia]

Since I believe in karma and reincarnation, I don't blame God for anything that's happening to me.. Sometimes it's difficult not to get mad at Him, but yeah, in the end it's my fault.

 

[StupidCat]

I've been a Christian then atheist then Christian again. Nowadays I'm more nuanced. It's a personal journey, you just have to know you can rationalize God, it's simply an entity beyond our comprehension, the closest form you can get to God is by spirituality, not logic.

 

[JealousOfTheElderly]

I was Christian, then Atheist, then Christian (Protestant lite). Then I embraced the New Age Spirituality movement and believed in reincarnation, karma, spiritism, and all that. Then I became spiritually lost - a "Dark night of the soul" type of lost. I jumped from church to church - Mormonism, Protestantism, Catholicism.... and nothing spoke to me. I have been lost since but slowly, slowly regaining belief in Christianity mixed with some New Age (the part about reincarnation and karma). I listen to Gregorian Chants to bring me peace. I read about Spiritual Ecstasy and Catholic mysticism. I focus on Jesus' message more than suffering and guilt. One thing I received is a "message" saying to let go. Just let go of everything. All my worries, all my fears, just let them go. Pray and ask the Universe / God / anything out there to forgive you for your "sins". Forgive you for your human flaws. Take all your fears and worries and make them part of the growth experience.
I found that this type of prayer to whoever is listening seems to work a little. It's just a matter of being consistent and believing that there is something out there that loves us and wants us to grow.
Then I came across this Bible verse:
"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."
— Psalm 23:4

Just ask whatever is out there for comfort. To help take away all your problems and ease your mind.
It kind of works for me and that's a good enough start for me.

 

[cemeteryismyhome]

I stopped believing in my God when I was a child. I'm a Christian. I would recommend everyone to watch this video to understand how silly the concept is. Hopefully you have a good laugh as well.

I didn't like George Carlin at first but now I love him. He will go down in history as one of the greatest philosophers of our time (I get laughed at when I say that but I'm serious). He had a lot of things right and said it plainly. I saw that video awhile back and he actually makes some very good points. But I'm still a Christian after watching it.

 

[Forever Sleep]

My family were very loosely Christian. Both out of comfort really- all your dead relatives are now living happily in heaven but also, morally- no sex before marriage, stuff like that.

I've grown up to question and hate God so much that now, I truly hope there isn't one. I simply can't square how this world has been created alongside a good, benevolent father figure. So, the safer option to my mind is that, I truly hope there's nothing.

I'd be so curious to know too though. Whether there are members here who are religious but, weren't brought up in that faith. I imagine that's the main contributor- that people are indoctrinated young. It's amazing still though, how many decide to quite.

I would think fewer become religious after being atheist, agnostic or whatever but then, I don't actually know. Switching faiths is kind of curious too.

I've certainly known people turn religious after some major trauma. I've certainly heard people say 'Jesus saved them'. Even I've begged for God's mercy when I've been terrified. I suppose it's just that though. We don't want to feel alone in those moments. We want to hope there's some greater power that will look after us or, give us strength or, simply have mercy on us and spare us something horrific. From what I've witnessed though, God's benevolence/ mercy is very hit and miss.

Kind of blasphemous- be warned but, I love this song:

 

[Pale_Rider]

Yes. Especially when I was younger I would blame God. Not so much these days, unless I'm moody maybe. The believing part is hard to impart. That's something you have to work on. It's called faith for a reason

 

[SchizoGymnast]

I am a fellow atheist and I think that people believe in their gods because they bring order to chaos and uncertainty of everyday life. It also helps to connect with other people, because having a religion usually means being a part of a community. However, what it also does to a person is clouds the mind, disfiguring the harsh reality of existence through a prism of religious doctrines. So, while believing in a deity of some kind certainly has its pros, it subsequently forces you to live a life full of lies, delusions and self-foolery, which begs the question: if there's any sense in living such a life at all?

Such is my opinion and I do not intend to offend anyone by making it known here.

I'm a religious person and while I (obviously) disagree with this, I found it very thoughtful and respectful.

I chose my religious path because I found it intellectually stimulating and magical. Are there other ways of experiencing magic or intellectual stimulation? Of course. Is it totally possible that my beliefs aren't real? Of course. But I would argue that something doesn't have to be real to be impactful. We encourage the development of imagination in children for a reason. Works of art and fiction can communicate vital messages and spark revolutions. People can and do make positive real world changes based on things they experienced during psychotic episodes and/or drug trips, despite knowing it wasn't real.

At the end of the day, if all my religion is is me dressing up and reading old books and talking to myself, I'm having a wonderful time.

Note that I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Religion has sooooo many problematic elements and I also know that atheists take a lot of shit. I'm just hoping to offer food for thought. If you catch me wandering the woods in a veil talking to myself, you're more than welcome to join me for tea!

 

[Pluto]

 

[whywere]

This one is absolutely OUTSTANDING!!!!!

Walter
For me, I do NOT believe in any form of organized religion, as it is all about money and power, NOT helping folks out.

I DO believe in GOD, and I say my nightly prayers when I retire. For me it is a connection that makes me feel good and complete and I firmly believe that there is so much that humans do not and never will understand and/or comprehend.

Like when I retire and include folks on here and pray that they get better and that there is hope for their future, it makes me feel connected not only to that person but the universe as a whole.

Walter

 

[Permanoir]

My family were very loosely Christian. Both out of comfort really- all your dead relatives are now living happily in heaven but also, morally- no sex before marriage, stuff like that.

I've grown up to question and hate God so much that now, I truly hope there isn't one. I simply can't square how this world has been created alongside a good, benevolent father figure. So, the safer option to my mind is that, I truly hope there's nothing.

I'd be so curious to know too though. Whether there are members here who are religious but, weren't brought up in that faith. I imagine that's the main contributor- that people are indoctrinated young. It's amazing still though, how many decide to quite.

I would think fewer become religious after being atheist, agnostic or whatever but then, I don't actually know. Switching faiths is kind of curious too.

I've certainly known people turn religious after some major trauma. I've certainly heard people say 'Jesus saved them'. Even I've begged for God's mercy when I've been terrified. I suppose it's just that though. We don't want to feel alone in those moments. We want to hope there's some greater power that will look after us or, give us strength or, simply have mercy on us and spare us something horrific. From what I've witnessed though, God's benevolence/ mercy is very hit and miss.

Kind of blasphemous- be warned but, I love this song:

I'm not a Christian mainly because my own beliefs don't align with the beliefs of Christianity, rather than because I outright reject its values. While I do disagree with some aspects, my issue isn't necessarily with Christianity itself but with how its core ideas contrast with what I personally hold to be true.

For example, both of us are antinatalists, so the very concept of creation is something we can't really agree with. If God were antinatalist, creation wouldn't have happened to begin with lol. When you raise that point with people who aren't antinatalist, they usually brush it off completely. To them, creation and reproduction are obviously good and don't need defending, even in the face of suffering. It's just accepted as natural and right without much thought.
I'm curious if that resonates with you at all.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'm not a Christian mainly because my own beliefs don't align with the beliefs of Christianity, rather than because I outright reject its values. While I do disagree with some aspects, my issue isn't necessarily with Christianity itself but with how its core ideas contrast with what I personally hold to be true.

For example, both of us are antinatalists, so the very concept of creation is something we can't really agree with. If God were antinatalist, creation wouldn't have happened to begin with lol. When you raise that point with people who aren't antinatalist, they usually brush it off completely. To them, creation and reproduction are obviously good and don't need defending, even in the face of suffering. It's just accepted as natural and right without much thought.
I'm curious if that resonates with you at all.

Ha ha- very true. God must be very much a natilist. I probably wouldn't be an anti-natilist if things had been designed differently. Which presumably, God being omnipotent, had the power to do. So, it seems reasonable to assume they wanted things this way/ engineered them so they could turn out this way. Again- they're God, they must have known all the possible outcomes.

I've heard it argued that everything was perfect till Adam and Eve indulged in a forbidden fruit snack. Really though, I don't buy it all being Adam and Eve's fault. Not that I really believe we originated from them anyway but still.

Even the story by itself paints God in a crazy light. Who condemns every living creature on the earth, because two humans disobeyed an order?!!

But yeah, it's a morally bankrupt creator who created some of the atrocities on this planet. Both in the animal and human kingdoms- to my mind anyway.

 

[Permanoir]

Sorry OP for derailing your thread.

Ha ha- very true. God must be very much a natilist. I probably wouldn't be an anti-natilist if things had been designed differently. Which presumably, God being omnipotent, had the power to do. So, it seems reasonable to assume they wanted things this way/ engineered them so they could turn out this way. Again- they're God, they must have known all the possible outcomes.

I've heard it argued that everything was perfect till Adam and Eve indulged in a forbidden fruit snack. Really though, I don't buy it all being Adam and Eve's fault. Not that I really believe we originated from them anyway but still.

Even the story by itself paints God in a crazy light. Who condemns every living creature on the earth, because two humans disobeyed an order?!!

But yeah, it's a morally bankrupt creator who created some of the atrocities on this planet. Both in the animal and human kingdoms- to my mind anyway.

The way I understand the story of Adam and Eve, as Christianity teaches it, is that they represent all of humanity. The story illustrates that human beings, by nature, chose to live apart from God, and God respected that choice. That's why the world is the way it is. This idea actually makes sense to me. According to Matthew 22:37, we were created to love God, but for that love to be real, it has to be freely given, not forced. So it follows that God would want us to come to Him willingly, not out of obligation.

Still, as an antinatalist, I can't help but bring up the consent issue, even if it feels a bit bold to raise that kind of argument against God. I would say that I didn't choose any of this. A Christian might respond by suggesting that maybe God asked us before we were born, but there's no actual evidence of that. And if, as Jeremiah 1:5 says, God knew us before we were born, then surely He would have provided some meaningful evidence of that choice. It also raises the question of why God didn't create things in a better way, if He could have. But maybe that doesn't matter, since it seems like we don't really have a say at all. As Isaiah 43:7 says, everything was created for God's glory—so in the end, perhaps our role isn't about choice as much as it is about fulfilling that purpose.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Sorry OP for derailing your thread.

The way I understand the story of Adam and Eve, as Christianity teaches it, is that they represent all of humanity. The story illustrates that human beings, by nature, chose to live apart from God, and God respected that choice. That's why the world is the way it is. This idea actually makes sense to me. According to Matthew 22:37, we were created to love God, but for that love to be real, it has to be freely given, not forced. So it follows that God would want us to come to Him willingly, not out of obligation.

Still, as an antinatalist, I can't help but bring up the consent issue, even if it feels a bit bold to raise that kind of argument against God. I would say that I didn't choose any of this. A Christian might respond by suggesting that maybe God asked us before we were born, but there's no actual evidence of that. And if, as Jeremiah 1:5 says, God knew us before we were born, then surely He would have provided some meaningful evidence of that choice. It also raises the question of why God didn't create things in a better way, if He could have. But maybe that doesn't matter, since it seems like we don't really have a say at all. As Isaiah 43:7 says, everything was created for God's glory—so in the end, perhaps our role isn't about choice as much as it is about fulfilling that purpose.

Also sorry for derailing the thread OP. Plus, it's not my intention to upset religious members. It's up to us what we believe in. I realise this isn't the best thread to have a religion bashing vent.

Maybe you're right and, I'll regret all this from hell! It's just my opinion ultimately. I would recommend anyone offended by blasphemy to skip the next part...

What about all the other creatures though? Maybe God exhibits a favouritism towards humans but, why make them suffer too? Can a fly even choose to worship God? It can still be eaten alive if it gets caught by something.

What did God hate so much about the dinosaurs? They were here for 165 million years, compared to our measly 6. Why is there no evidence of the dinosaurs worshiping a God? Didn't God think it worth their time visiting them? They still created them though- presumably? Then, threw a great big rock at them when they got bored maybe- to make room for us!

Are we a vanity project for God then? Why would an omnipotent being even need a fan club? Why do they need adulation and thanks? Why do they demand it?

Something I'm curious about... Why do you suppose God appreciates blind faith so much? Would you think it reasonable to 'love' and devote yourself to another thing that no one can be positive exists? Would you expect that of another human? Ok, we're not God. We have no right to expect things but, let's say you did become all powerful.

Would you look at this world. Holy wars where people tear each other to bits in your name and think- I'll keep on hiding. Let's see how this turns out...

Regarding the most heinous crimes too- take paedophilia. Why give a being the desire to hurt children like that? To test to see whether can resist? What if they don't though? That's an innocent child God just sacrificed to run a test! Wasn't there a better way? Ok God values choice- above everything though?

I just find there are too many contradictions. God wants you to choose. But- doesn't God already know what I will choose? Hasn't God already manipulated things in our lives to make it more likely we'll choose certain things? So, the game's rigged for a start. So- that's unfair.

Plus, either God is omnipotent or, they aren't. They either know everything or, they don't. So- surely God already knows what's in store for us. What kind of parents we have, where we were born. What religion we were taught- why allow a person to be indoctrinated in the wrong religion if you're going to punish them for it? Everything just boils down (for me) to a God that enjoys punishing things. So, a sadist basically.

Plus, I've always hated the whole 'Choose God and everything will be forgiven. Live a very honest, honorable life as an atheist and get cast into hell'. I've known some truly wonderful people who were atheists. Overall, the most 'Christian' (in terms of practicalities), people I've known, were ironically non believers! Whereas, we've all heard of the most heinous acts being committed by priests. If they get into heaven, whilst my friends go to hell, there's something very wrong! I'm sorry for the big, long rant. I just get incensed really. Not at religious people. Just the whole big mess of things.

 

[Permanoir]

Also sorry for derailing the thread OP. Plus, it's not my intention to upset religious members. It's up to us what we believe in. I realise this isn't the best thread to have a religion bashing vent.

Maybe you're right and, I'll regret all this from hell! It's just my opinion ultimately. I would recommend anyone offended by blasphemy to skip the next part...

What about all the other creatures though? Maybe God exhibits a favouritism towards humans but, why make them suffer too? Can a fly even choose to worship God? It can still be eaten alive if it gets caught by something.

What did God hate so much about the dinosaurs? They were here for 165 million years, compared to our measly 6. Why is there no evidence of the dinosaurs worshiping a God? Didn't God think it worth their time visiting them? They still created them though- presumably? Then, threw a great big rock at them when they got bored maybe- to make room for us!

Are we a vanity project for God then? Why would an omnipotent being even need a fan club? Why do they need adulation and thanks? Why do they demand it?

Something I'm curious about... Why do you suppose God appreciates blind faith so much? Would you think it reasonable to 'love' and devote yourself to another thing that no one can be positive exists? Would you expect that of another human? Ok, we're not God. We have no right to expect things but, let's say you did become all powerful.

Would you look at this world. Holy wars where people tear each other to bits in your name and think- I'll keep on hiding. Let's see how this turns out...

Regarding the most heinous crimes too- take paedophilia. Why give a being the desire to hurt children like that? To test to see whether can resist? What if they don't though? That's an innocent child God just sacrificed to run a test! Wasn't there a better way? Ok God values choice- above everything though?

I just find there are too many contradictions. God wants you to choose. But- doesn't God already know what I will choose? Hasn't God already manipulated things in our lives to make it more likely we'll choose certain things? So, the game's rigged for a start. So- that's unfair.

Plus, either God is omnipotent or, they aren't. They either know everything or, they don't. So- surely God already knows what's in store for us. What kind of parents we have, where we were born. What religion we were taught- why allow a person to be indoctrinated in the wrong religion if you're going to punish them for it? Everything just boils down (for me) to a God that enjoys punishing things. So, a sadist basically.

Plus, I've always hated the whole 'Choose God and everything will be forgiven. Live a very honest, honorable life as an atheist and get cast into hell'. I've known some truly wonderful people who were atheists. Overall, the most 'Christian' (in terms of practicalities), people I've known, were ironically non believers! Whereas, we've all heard of the most heinous acts being committed by priests. If they get into heaven, whilst my friends go to hell, there's something very wrong! I'm sorry for the big, long rant. I just get incensed really. Not at religious people. Just the whole big mess of things.

I'm not a Christian, so the answers I'll give here are just what a Christian might say or better, what the Bible actually teaches. I'm 18 and might not have explored these sensitive questions deeply enough, so take what I say with a grain of salt. It will sound a bit strange because I'll come across like someone who believes in all this.

Yes, animal suffering isn't something the biblical framework fully explains. For example, why would dinosaurs suffer and die before humans even came into existence? That's a strong argument. But I won't go into its counterarguments or explore it further because I don't want to derail the thread any further, and this will be my last post here but must not our last encounter if you like ;)

Secondly, as humans, we can never truly know why God created us or why He created the world the way He did. But there are some things I felt were worth pointing out. It seems like everything was made for God Himself — He is whole and doesn't need anything from us. The reason I mentioned love as the reason for creation is because we are His creatures, and being separate from Him harms us. That's why He wants to reunite us with Himself — to share the beauty and joy of existence. That's also why someone ends up in hell. It's not because they're an atheist or born into another religion, but because they've chosen to separate their love from God. God doesn't force love — He values our free will, but He is also with us through the Holy Spirit, trying to guide us every day. Christians often say the reason a nonbeliever doesn't find God is like the reason a thief doesn't find a cop — because they're running from Him. They believe God has provided enough evidence to believe in Him. Blind faith isn't really what He wants — He encourages us to be critical and to seek the truth (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

And the issue about God being omniscient — knowing tomorrow today and therefore being responsible for letting things happen — is explained by the fact that He is outside of time and lets events play out freely.

Lastly, God doesn't want to punish us. If He did, He wouldn't have come into His own creation and died for our sins so we wouldn't perish (John 3:17). We just need to restore our relationship with Him, because outside of Him there is no life, only misery (John 10:10). We are special — He chose us to be stewards of this world, to have a relationship with Him, and to rule beside Him (Genesis 2:15). Even though injustice and cruelty exist now, it will all pass — He has promised to defeat evil (Revelation 21:4).

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'm not a Christian, so the answers I'll give here are just what a Christian might say. I'm 18 and might not have explored these sensitive questions deeply enough, so take what I say with a grain of salt. It will sound a bit strange because I'll come across like someone who believes in all this.

Yes, animal suffering isn't something the biblical framework fully explains. For example, why would dinosaurs suffer and die before humans even came into existence? That's a strong argument. But I won't go into its counterarguments or explore it further because I don't want to derail the thread any further, and this will be my last post here but must not our last encounter if you like ;)

Secondly, as humans, we can never truly know why God created us or why He created the world the way He did. But there are some things I felt were worth pointing out. It seems like everything was made for God Himself — He is whole and doesn't need anything from us. The reason I mentioned love as the reason for creation is because we are His creatures, and being separate from Him harms us. That's why He wants to reunite us with Himself — to share the beauty and joy of existence. That's also why someone ends up in hell. It's not because they're an atheist or born into another religion, but because they've chosen to separate their love from God. God doesn't force love — He values our free will, but He is also with us through the Holy Spirit, trying to guide us every day. Christians often say the reason a nonbeliever doesn't find God is like the reason a thief doesn't find a cop — because they're running from Him. They believe God has provided enough evidence to believe in Him. Blind faith isn't really what He wants — He encourages us to be critical and to seek the truth (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

And the issue about God being omniscient — knowing tomorrow today and therefore being responsible for letting things happen — is explained by the fact that He is outside of time and lets events play out freely.

Lastly, God doesn't want to punish us. If He did, He wouldn't have come into His own creation and died for our sins so we wouldn't perish (John 3:17). We just need to restore our relationship with Him, because outside of Him there is no life, only misery (John 10:10). We are special — He chose us to be stewards of this world, to have a relationship with Him, and to rule beside Him (Genesis 2:15). Even though injustice and cruelty exist now, it will all pass — He has promised to defeat evil (Revelation 21:4).

I'm going to hide this text again because, I am conscious of derailing again here. I agree, this should be our last post here on this though.

If that's what people want to believe then, fine. I'm happy for them to feel God's love. I do mean that truthfully, even though it probably sounds cynical.

It's still not something that sits well with me. However it's worded, I still think God knowingly made a set of decisions that resulted in lots of suffering, (as well as some nice things too.)

Even if God broke themselves apart, why would they need to do that in the first place? That's still a decision that ended in billions of living, sentient creatures enduring all kinds of agony. To what end? What do they need to learn? They're God!

I understand the need to be creative. I am that way inclined too. If I knew my creations were sentient and in agony though- if just one of them was, I'd be seriously reassessing my choices- so- back to the anti-natalism argument I guess.

Besides, even people who feel God's love suffer. My parents are reasonably religious. There are people suffering terribly at their church. God's love doesn't do much to stop the illnesses he's made us prone to!

But I agree- we've derailed the thread enough I think. I'm sure we'll clash religious sords again. It's a reasonably common theme here.