thought this snippet from a dialectical behavioral therapy workbook was funny :3

[clown_17]

I have a dbt group coming up and I'm dreading it sooo much. When I'm having an emotional flashback I don't want to learn about how to silence my "extreme emotions." I want to honor how I feel because it's there for a reason and silencing the part of me that's upset is just a shitty thing to do.

 

[Seiba]

I forgot to include this absolute gem:

View attachment 84596

I'm sorry to hear about the "techniques" you had to endure. I forgot about the workbooks and otherwise, being reminded of them makes me wish the people who suggest therapy for everything would just read them. There's this ever present illusion that therapist have this level of knowledge that no one can be bothered to articulate, and it would be oh so dangerous for anyone else to even attempt anything because of how much education is needed. Then you go and read these books, (or experience the treatment ripped from them) and realize that it was just a lie. I honestly don't see how anyone could read that image and suggest it to someone who experienced abuse. I know I can't speak for everyone, but a pretty decent part of abuse can be led into believing or outright told by the abuser that you deserved it for X reason(s). It doesn't really remotely healthy to get the abused person to practice compassion for abusive people.

Even taking it to be someone who is slightly disliked and not outright abusive isn't super healthy? I would say getting a position (if possible) where active boundaries could be upheld against such a person to prevent them from doing the things that make someone dislike them. Overanalyzing other people and trying to make up for their flaws isn't a great approach for abuse victims who have otherwise been forced to make excuses for most of their abusers just to survive.

 

[combatcuteness]

It's incredible how little therapy options are available for treatment resistant ppl. Most of these "therapy's" are the same, just different ways of saying "it's all in your mind, just act normal already". Little thought goes into the fact that treatment resistant doesn't mean you subconsciously don't wanna get better, but it means that your mind is so broken you can't actually be better. This is why new treatments should be researched and developed.

 

[Feeding Pigeons]

This is mindblowing. One of the things my last therapist tried to get me into was a DBT class, and there were none available. I looked into what DBT was and saw a few things and immediately smelled that it was bullshit. These screenshots you guys are posted confirmed it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Its beyond sounding like it was written by someone who hasn't had depression, it sounds like it was written by an alien with a loose understanding of what being a human is.

 

[Rogue Proxy]

This is mindblowing. One of the things my last therapist tried to get me into was a DBT class, and there were none available. I looked into what DBT was and saw a few things and immediately smelled that it was bullshit. These screenshots you guys are posted confirmed it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Its beyond sounding like it was written by someone who hasn't had depression, it sounds like it was written by an alien with a loose understanding of what being a human is.

Unfortunately, this exemplifies how most humans aren't actually advanced when it comes to other forms of higher cognition. In this case, ethics, empathy, and compassion. The true motive of psychology and psychiatry isn't based on relieving suffering, but on maintaining and improving human servitude. I'll bet that if mental health issues didn't affect productivity or social dynamics, and if mental health enforcers didn't gain significant capital or societal power; then psychology and psychiatry would barely, if ever, exist.

 

[Starryeyes]

I am glad there is a thread about this. It truly is ludicrous what can be cobbled together and presented as a viable, therapeutic methodology. There were some techniques in DBT that I personally found helpful. Aspects of DBT were useful for a time, but for me it was like putting a plaster on a gaping wound.

DBT provides coping strategies (including highly questionable ones), but it doesn't adequately address deep trauma, and much of the language is gaslighting and infantilising. This is a crucial consideration, since the target demographic for this modality is primarily individuals with BPD/EUPD. Research has found that cluster B personality disorders - especially BPD - have the strongest link with a history of childhood trauma.

I remember when I facilitated peer-led DBT workshops for a support group I used to run several years ago, and I had to drastically rewrite most of the content in order to present some basic strategies and tools without the sanctimonious, patronising undertone and hogwash.

Aside from the snippets of useful information I gleaned (which are only applicable to some contexts - and a lack of context and nuance is a huge problem with this modality), DBT as a therapeutic intervention caused me a lot of harm. It was essentially glorified brainwashing, especially sections such as check the facts and radical acceptance.

I was never "throwing tantrums" (as written in the official handbook by Linehan - see the screenshot below) about my circumstances in the first place. For therapists to suggest that I could simply "radically accept" my situation and that this would improve my life was - and still is - nonsense. I was manipulated by my therapist at the time for experiencing and expressing valid emotions, deliberately tricked into "using the skills" when it was not appropriate, and placed in positions a patient should not be in as a way of "testing my progress."

View attachment 84562

The underlying message is "You're the problem - you need to think differently, feel differently, behave differently and radically accept your reality." Like with many other modalities (notably its cousin, CBT), I felt that DBT twists everything into a "you" problem, but sprinkles in a little bit of validation (or what Linehan considers to be validation) to soften the tone. Linehan herself said - during her seminars in the 90s - that validation provided the "sugar-coating" to help the "distasteful medicine" of CBT go down. That language in itself is problematic - and very telling.

In keeping with the original post, here are some segments that I found amusingly terrible:
View attachment 84565
View attachment 84566
View attachment 84567 (Listed as a "Pleasant Event", with no other clarifying context)

I'm on week 8 of 12. Struggling big time with it. I have bpd from childhood trauma and I am made to feel like I'm the problem. That I'm choosing to suffer instead of dealing with the way I respond to things. I can't see it changing my mindset tbh

 

[clown_17]

It's incredible how little therapy options are available for treatment resistant ppl. Most of these "therapy's" are the same, just different ways of saying "it's all in your mind, just act normal already". Little thought goes into the fact that treatment resistant doesn't mean you subconsciously don't wanna get better, but it means that your mind is so broken you can't actually be better. This is why new treatments should be researched and developed.

You're so right on the "most of the therapy's are the same" thing. DBT is essentially CBT but with meditation and "validation." ACT is essentially just a non therapy therapy paired with mindfulness (we can't make you feel better so we'll make you feeling like shit the whole point), and EMDR and Exposure therapy have the same core concept of reliving fears.

There's no original therapy. If one doesn't work, the others likely won't. And I hate it. We get seen as quitters for not wanting to try useless therapy version 2.0 or 3.0 (it has to be better than version 1 right?!?!)

 

[waitingforrest]

I am glad there is a thread about this. It truly is ludicrous what can be cobbled together and presented as a viable, therapeutic methodology. There were some techniques in DBT that I personally found helpful. Aspects of DBT were useful for a time, but for me it was like putting a plaster on a gaping wound.

DBT provides coping strategies (including highly questionable ones), but it doesn't adequately address deep trauma, and much of the language is gaslighting and infantilising. This is a crucial consideration, since the target demographic for this modality is primarily individuals with BPD/EUPD. Research has found that cluster B personality disorders - especially BPD - have the strongest link with a history of childhood trauma.

I remember when I facilitated peer-led DBT workshops for a support group I used to run several years ago, and I had to drastically rewrite most of the content in order to present some basic strategies and tools without the sanctimonious, patronising undertone and hogwash.

Aside from the snippets of useful information I gleaned (which are only applicable to some contexts - and a lack of context and nuance is a huge problem with this modality), DBT as a therapeutic intervention caused me a lot of harm. It was essentially glorified brainwashing, especially sections such as check the facts and radical acceptance.

I was never "throwing tantrums" (as written in the official handbook by Linehan - see the screenshot below) about my circumstances in the first place. For therapists to suggest that I could simply "radically accept" my situation and that this would improve my life was - and still is - nonsense. I was manipulated by my therapist at the time for experiencing and expressing valid emotions, deliberately tricked into "using the skills" when it was not appropriate, and placed in positions a patient should not be in as a way of "testing my progress."

View attachment 84562

The underlying message is "You're the problem - you need to think differently, feel differently, behave differently and radically accept your reality." Like with many other modalities (notably its cousin, CBT), I felt that DBT twists everything into a "you" problem, but sprinkles in a little bit of validation (or what Linehan considers to be validation) to soften the tone. Linehan herself said - during her seminars in the 90s - that validation provided the "sugar-coating" to help the "distasteful medicine" of CBT go down. That language in itself is problematic - and very telling.

In keeping with the original post, here are some segments that I found amusingly terrible:
View attachment 84565
View attachment 84566
View attachment 84567 (Listed as a "Pleasant Event", with no other clarifying context)

"Go hug a tree" Oh gee thanks for reminding me that I have no one to hug useless list!

On a more serious note, reminds me of the one hundred reasons to live list that people spam everywhere.

 

[Feeding Pigeons]

"Go hug a tree" Oh gee thanks for reminding me that I have no one to hug useless list!

On a more serious note, reminds me of the one hundred reasons to live list that people spam everywhere.

Thats such a caricature of being around nature too. They don't understand you have to sit amongst the trees and close your eyes and listen to the leafs blowing in the wind, like Pocahontas. You know, while you block out the smell of gasoline and urine and the noise of cars honking.

 

[Rogue Proxy]

"Go hug a tree" Oh gee thanks for reminding me that I have no one to hug useless list!

On a more serious note, reminds me of the one hundred reasons to live list that people spam everywhere.

Trees generally aren't suitable for hugging due to their highly rigid forms, lack of heat generation or insulation, and the abrasive bark of most species.

Granted, cuddling my plushies does feel great. But of course, it will never nullify all the suffering in my life, prevent future miseries, adduce or enhance the supposed value or worth of existence; nor dissuade me from ending my life in the future.

Thats such a caricature of being around nature too. They don't understand you have to sit amongst the trees and close your eyes and listen to the leafs blowing in the wind, like Pocahontas. You know, while you block out the smell of gasoline and urine and the noise of cars honking.

Then there are the hard-hitting facts of deforestation resulting in habitat destruction, wildlife suffering, declining soil and air quality; increasing pollutants, increasing natural disasters like floods and mudslides, and exacerbating global warming. All thanks to the insatiable greed, anthropocentrism, overconsumption, and overpopulation of the human species.

 

[completely-done]

Oh my. I have a DBT workbook too. Sometimes the tips in there feel condescending lol

 

[Rogue Proxy]

Buy a wig or toupee?

Call Faust for an instant baldness cure?

 

[Flippy]

Thought I had chimed in on this a little while ago but I must've been mistaken. @Persephone ❦ It really winds me up that the expression of emotions, particularly a negative one is defined as a "tantrum". I have to be honest, if the bar has been set that low then I have to say the vast majority of people I have ever interacted with have serious emotional disregulation. It seems perfectly acceptable for others to shout and snarl at me despite the fact I have never raised my voice to them.

It is normal to express negative emotions at times and perfectly justified in a multitude of situations. To dismiss a negative emotion as a "tantrum" is invalidating and just another tool in the gaslighter's arsenal. I encounter people every day who are primed to fly off the handle for even the minimal of perceived "impositions". Apparently that's acceptable.

It's ridiculous that others get to express the full gamut of emotions, justified or not. But people in our boat are excluded from this. It seems that it's all a way of conditioning people into silence instead of allowing them to challenge negative behaviour, particularly from people in positions of authority.

It's like "Oh calm down Flippy, I know your psychiatrist was shouting at you and constantly interrupting you. But you've got to understand, he's a very busy and stressed man at the moment and therefore he can't control his emotions. Now I know you're extremely distressed, suicidal and despite that, you haven't raised your voice once, or interrupted him, but it's very wrong to politely suggest that his behaviour is unacceptable. You are expressing a negative emotion and only your psychiatrist is allowed to do that."

 

[Angi]

OMG....
Thanks for sharing this. I have never tried DBT, and I won't.

That said, there are other options than behaviour therapy. Even my therapist hates behaviour therapy , especially when used for trauma and the like.

 

[Rabhen]

this is under a big list of "Pleasurable Activities"
View attachment 81029

First, don't EVER cut my hair! Crisis center? Really? Puzzles with all their infuriating tiny pieces tat get lost? Buy something on the internet? I would rather go shopping in person so okay, one thing works for me.

 

[callme]

To dismiss a negative emotion as a "tantrum" is invalidating and just another tool in the gaslighter's arsenal. I encounter people every day who are primed to fly off the handle for even the minimal of perceived "impositions". Apparently that's acceptable.

Now I don't know who's who there. It just sounds like shouting accusations at one another, but definitely, likening somebody to a baby means being reduced, and if so in their eyes, why would they let it be known what they think? Just the facts, ma'am, and hit the carpet.

Isn't that called BDP? I think I have it, not diagnosed but still. It's apparently not okay, they always tell you to not lash out at them and to contain yourself. Can only do so much when they are stupid and especially have terrible habits that are a problem. I mean, when you've been bottling it up for months and years on end. Anything you explain or bring up in a normal expression gets you told off, talked down to and brushed aside.

allowing them to challenge negative behaviour, particularly from people in positions of authority.

It rather is an expression of their view of us, one of perceived weakness and social ineptitude. I can't wait until they find out one day, that a complete, resolute and balanced person doesn't need to assert themselves to others.

Oh calm down Flippy, I know your psychiatrist was shouting at you and constantly interrupting you

You are expressing a negative emotion and only your psychiatrist is allowed to do that."

But they constantly point out how negative the patient is. Why can't they just admit they are equally disappointed by society as most of us here are?

In any case, hope you get over this cretin soon enough and find a new therapist.

 

[Flippy]

Now I don't know who's who there. It just sounds like shouting accusations at one another, but definitely, likening somebody to a baby means being reduced, and if so in their eyes, why would they let it be known what they think? Just the facts, ma'am, and hit the carpet.

Isn't that called BDP? I think I have it, not diagnosed but still. It's apparently not okay, they always tell you to not lash out at them and to contain yourself. Can only do so much when they are stupid and especially have terrible habits that are a problem. I mean, when you've been bottling it up for months and years on end. Anything you explain or bring up in a normal expression gets you told off, talked down to and brushed aside.



It rather is an expression of their view of us, one of perceived weakness and social ineptitude. I can't wait until they find out one day, that a complete, resolute and balanced person doesn't need to assert themselves to others.







But they constantly point out how negative the patient is. Why can't they just admit they are equally disappointed by society as most of us here are?

In any case, hope you get over this cretin soon enough and find a new therapist.

I suppose to clarify somewhat...A negative emotion is not a bad thing in and of itself. Human beings experience a wide gamut of justifiable, healthy emotions. Many of which can be negative.

What I am saying here essentially is sometimes expressing a negative emotion is the healthiest thing to do.

I for example regularly drop objects due to possible nerve damage and joint issues. About 6 months ago I picked up a clothes iron and it immediately fell from my hand. It landed pointy end first onto my bare foot and it was damned painful. I believe my exact words were a hushed "Owwww...faaaaaaack....faaaauuuuck...fuck fk fk fk fk..."

I didn't shout or scream or throw the iron through the nearest window. It was damned unpleasant and not being particularly steady on my legs at the best of times, with the added benefit of a possibly broken toe, made perambulation a bit more of a chore than usual.
I think that is an example of a rather understated, justified negative emotion.

But say, I step on someone's toe, totally by accident. Often the average response (from far too many people) is to rage, like you just took aim with a blunderbuss and blew off both their feet while they were wearing their favourite Italian loafers. That's a tantrum.

A tantrum is not:

1. Expressing disappointment eg. at loosing your wallet with all your money in it.

2. Expressing shock at unexpected bad news.

3. Being firm or asserting yourself.

4. Voicing an objection, particularly to harsh or unfair treatment.

5. Calmly standing up for your rights.

6. Having a better considered or, more valid and rational argument.

7. Telling the unvarnished truth.

8. Expressing valid concerns.

9. Disagreeing or having a different opinion or point of view.

10. Dropping your phone and saying "shit" in response.

Throwing a tantrum is...well let's use some definitions that Google provided...


1. A display of ill-humor, especially a demonstration of rage or frustration by shouting or violent physical movements, such as the stamping of feet; called also temper tantrum.

2. It is usually associated with children, but is sometimes seen in adults.

3. A display of anger expressed by irrationally striking out at innocent targets or inanimate objects.

4. An often childish display or fit of bad temper.
a display of bad temper.

There's more but, you get the idea.

My psychiatrist displayed all of these traits in quick succession. I did not.

If you can convince someone that a justified behaviour is somehow unacceptable, you can control them. This is why words like "tantrum" are used when vulnerable people assert themselves. It's called "false equivocation" or manipulating concepts. Gaslighting.

"Eat ye not from the tree of knowledge!"

In other words, "You are in an undermined position. Attempt to change that at your peril."

Only god may eat from the tree of knowledge, as only someone in authority (like this psychiatrist) may shout and throw actual honest to goodness tantrums.

I can't remember where I heard it, but recently someone defined the problem with power crazed people and their concept of "respect". I'm paraphrasing..."Treat me like a god and I will treat you like a person." And I think that captures the power dynamic when it comes to certain authority figures and their attitude to vulnerable and ill people.

 

[LastFlowers]

this is under a big list of "Pleasurable Activities"
View attachment 81029

I found some type of behavioral bullet point paper (from who knows when) dictating my patient requirements on a rule-type basis, and at one point it said something along the lines of
"If Lastflowers follows these guidelines, they may be rewarded with their own piece of peppermint candy."
Like I was a dog or something lol.
Fucking bizarre.
(And it was worded so much worse than that but have to find the paper again.)

This post reminded me of that.

 

[Flippy]

I found some type of behavioral bullet point paper (from who knows when) dictating my patient requirements on a rule-type basis, and at one point it said something along the lines of
"If Lastflowers follows these guidelines, they may be rewarded with their own piece of peppermint candy."
Like I was a dog or something lol.
Fucking bizarre.
(And it was worded so much worse than that but have to find the paper again.)

This post reminded me of that.

Wow! Just wow! Stop the planet, I seriously want to get off right this minute.

I keep saying it, but it seems mental health professionals keep confusing mental illness with cognitive deficiency!

 

[callme]

I suppose to clarify somewhat...A negative emotion is not a bad thing in and of itself. Human beings experience a wide gamut of justifiable, healthy emotions. Many of which can be negative.

What I am saying here essentially is sometimes expressing a negative emotion is the healthiest thing to do.

I for example regularly drop objects due to possible nerve damage and joint issues. About 6 months ago I picked up a clothes iron and it immediately fell from my hand. It landed pointy end first onto my bare foot and it was damned painful. I believe my exact words were a hushed "Owwww...faaaaaaack....faaaauuuuck...fuck fk fk fk fk..."

I didn't shout or scream or throw the iron through the nearest window. It was damned unpleasant and not being particularly steady on my legs at the best of times, with the added benefit of a possibly broken toe, made perambulation a bit more of a chore than usual.
I think that is an example of a rather understated, justified negative emotion.

But say, I step on someone's toe, totally by accident. Often the average response (from far too many people) is to rage, like you just took aim with a blunderbuss and blew off both their feet while they were wearing their favourite Italian loafers. That's a tantrum.

A tantrum is not:

1. Expressing disappointment eg. at loosing your wallet with all your money in it.

2. Expressing shock at unexpected bad news.

3. Being firm or asserting yourself.

4. Voicing an objection, particularly to harsh or unfair treatment.

5. Calmly standing up for your rights.

6. Having a better considered or, more valid and rational argument.

7. Telling the unvarnished truth.

8. Expressing valid concerns.

9. Disagreeing or having a different opinion or point of view.

10. Dropping your phone and saying "shit" in response.

Throwing a tantrum is...well let's use some definitions that Google provided...


1. A display of ill-humor, especially a demonstration of rage or frustration by shouting or violent physical movements, such as the stamping of feet; called also temper tantrum.

2. It is usually associated with children, but is sometimes seen in adults.

3. A display of anger expressed by irrationally striking out at innocent targets or inanimate objects.

4. An often childish display or fit of bad temper.
a display of bad temper.

There's more but, you get the idea.

My psychiatrist displayed all of these traits in quick succession. I did not.

If you can convince someone that a justified behaviour is somehow unacceptable, you can control them. This is why words like "tantrum" are used when vulnerable people assert themselves. It's called "false equivocation" or manipulating concepts. Gaslighting.

"Eat ye not from the tree of knowledge!"

In other words, "You are in an undermined position. Attempt to change that at your peril."

Only god may eat from the tree of knowledge, as only someone in authority (like this psychiatrist) may shout and throw actual honest to goodness tantrums.

I can't remember where I heard it, but recently someone defined the problem with power crazed people and their concept of "respect". I'm paraphrasing..."Treat me like a god and I will treat you like a person." And I think that captures the power dynamic when it comes to certain authority figures and their attitude to vulnerable and ill people.

It was obvious from your original point your psychiatrist has long overstepped the border of acceptable behaviour. You as the patient are always in a lower standing so, it's understandable now when you explain their ways.

When I said it could be both people accusing each other, it seems I was wrong. It usually happens when the one really doing it denies it. I did also, because I thought the motive could be wrong and he may have just wanted to prove you wrong and not mind about keeping you as a patient, but I see now this is the first step to controlling you.

Hope you'll have switched by another doc soon enough

 

[Starryeyes]

I quit CBT on session 7.

Could not take ' I choose to suffer' a minute more than I had too

 

[callme]

I quit CBT on session 7.

Could not take ' I choose to suffer' a minute more than I had too

Let me guess, you were probably recommended Viktor Frankl's book? "Everything can be taken away fro a man but his freedom of choice". True, but it will never stop human nature and people turning everything to shit.

Are those people trained to be naive?! Christ they're all incompetents

@Flippy what is there to do as a solution for possible BPD? I am getting impulsive and have been for sometime, but undiagnosed. Would never put up with the med establishment. I feel there isn't any other way to not be legitimately angry at what I am angry. In other cases, I plain and just can't keep level emotions unless alone. Raising my nerves and raging, I always immediately recognise it's too bad and think "dear me, what am I doing?!" And immediately feel terrible for doing so, sometimes work related, although nothing major. Immediately get told off or reprimanded and get re-angry and confrontational.

I simply can't for the life of me understand why hold back emotions when I do it constantly at any other time. It couldn't be any other way. I feel a release of something (well not excrement ti be sure), which is why I think I keep doing it.

Could you offer what you know as help? I will try to be one of the opposing team of angry blockheads who is going to listen to you, without shouting or interrupting.

Fare thee well.