There is actually an explanation why it had to happen to us

[Cryptonite]

Hi everybody,

some of us might find this comforting. Recently I've been getting into a hard determinism, which is a notion that free will is just an illusion and therefore everything is predetermined and nothing could have been done otherwise. It is supported by many philosophers, neuroscientists, physicists and biologists, as well as some empirical experiments. There is an atomic and molecular chain of causality that cannot be broken.

Human minds are no exception, they are constructed from atoms and molecules. In other words, they are constructed only from external factors, such as genes, personality, life experiences, cultural norms, cognitive abilities etc. There is no part of brain that allows for independent, unbounded thinking. Our decisionmaking is like an equation with potentially predictable result. The only thing that prevents us from making accurate predictions is the sheer amount of inputs that influence every decision.

To put it simply: the fact that you ended up in this situation could not have been prevented. It had to happen. There was no other alternative. The people that harmed you couldn't have acted otherwise. Your physical diseases and injuries could not have not happened.

If you're interested in the topic, I'd recommend authors such as Sam Harris, Derk Pereboom, Gregg Caruso, Bruce N. Waller, Jerry Coyne, Julian Baggini. Sam Hariss's book Free Will is probably the n. 1 book on the topic.

 

[FuneralCry]

This is very true and it's a reason as to why I believe that having the ability to exist in this world is a curse, people really shouldn't force life here and burden that person with existence where they could potentially suffer so extremely.

 

[Cryptonite]

This is very true and it's a reason as to why I believe that having the ability to exist in this world is a curse, people really shouldn't force life here and burden that person with existence where they could potentially suffer so extremely.

Exactly. But also the fact that someone had children was predetermined.

 

[SilentSadness]

The idea that it had to happen isn't an explanation for why. It's just senseless torture whether it's guaranteed or not.

 

[epic]

The idea that it had to happen isn't an explanation for why.

It is, if you are not looking for an epistemological or metaphysical answer.

 

[Mortalist]

I don't believe in destiny, and neither in predetermination.
I would distinct, however, between the rules of survival and the fact that I could not follow them. Or otherwise...
Like, we have to follow the rules of society. Get education, get a job. If you don't, you wont have money to take care of your needs. Food, shelter, stuff we want for living, Then, fulfillment and compliance to societal standards. If you fail, your out. No love, no care. And just so much more...
You know, it's either "you don't question and do as we demand, or you wont have what is needed for living". Its either do or die.
It is fair to argue, that in this situation you have no choice, no free will. If you want to survive and have a happy life, where is the choice there?
Then a suicidal person comes along, and does something outrageous: killing himself. Like, how could he, how dare he?!?! This is not how we do things!
And what this means, essentially, is a big F*** YOU! To the rules. To our role-fulfillment demanded by this world, our place in it and all the expectations that come along with it. Just everything.
So, the way I see this, in regards to this, is that suicide is the greatest act and declaration of free will there could ever be. There is nothing more powerful, then when wanting to leave this earth, someone will actually do it.

I would like to clarify something, though:
I respect the choice of every person who wants to CTB. But, I do NOT glory suicide in any way. I think it's more then tragic that we live in a world where this is even possible. Everyone should be able to be happy, have a great life, caring friends and family, and love. Free from judgement, bullying, oppression, and worthlessness due to dumb societal norms.

It is a sad world we live in.

 

[brokeandbroken]

I think it is more society decides who to favor and who not to. As far as I'm concerned unless you are in the in crowd you never will be. Doesn't matter who you are or what you do. It's an unfortunate reality. Especially if you lack society's help which many of us don't have. Why high school is sort of a microcosm of life.

 

[LittleJem]

I don't believe in free will. We are all creatures of our genetics and programming.

 

[loopdaloop]

True, free will is only an illusion

 

[unnormal9]

To put it simply: the fact that you ended up in this situation could not have been prevented. It had to happen.

This is an assumption that is false.
I would have not ended in this debilitating situation if I was cared for and wanted—especially by my family; that, which is does not exist.
I would have never gone from home to home, I would have never met my trauma and the plethora of pain that arose as a result of the rest.
I am not a biological experiment to be researched for someone else's philosophy.
I am able to take back my volition—now in my ability to suicide.

I don't believe in destiny, and neither in predetermination.

Neither I. As Ryan once told me before,
"Fate's not something set in stone. If you really want to change it all you have to do is believe. Even if it comes off a bit cliche."

 

[Callie Arcale]

I know why bad things happen to me. It's no mistery at all. It's because I make bad decisions.

 

[stermc]

What about the people who go through the exact same thing we do but are not even considering suicide?
Maybe what we have been through is predetermined, but not the fact that we are suicidal (at least not for this reason, I guess).
I used to believe suicide was my destiny and I am still pretty sure that's how I am dying, but that's my decision, it's not my destiny (even though it feels like it sometimes). I mean, things could change.
In my opinion, we decide what we do with our misery.

 

[Zegers]

When you appreciate that squid game make more sense than this

 

[leavingsoon99]

The idea that it had to happen isn't an explanation for why. It's just senseless torture whether it's guaranteed or not.

Agreed. Not that I seek any comfort, but like you said... it gives no reason. In other words, humans can't behave any other way. So, to expect that they can is just to torment oneself.

 

[WorthlessTrash]

Our lives are this way because there has to be winners and losers in this world. Now that all there is to determine is if each of us wants to be on display for people to look at and be grateful they aren't us, or do we want to end our own suffering. Not everyone can win in life. RNG just decided that we cannot.

 

[kipa]

Side note to anime watchers here, The debate of determinism and free will is also the premise of Attack on Titan. The fandom doesn't really discuss it though which saddens me.

 

[11April]

Does anyone else think the same as me. Everyone to whom I spoke about this either could not understand me or did not agree. I'm still not completely sure that this is exactly the case, but every day I'm more and more inclined towards this version. This made me understand that there is no guilt, as such. People really acted in the only way possible for them. They could be in the same situation, but someone initially has more strength and patience, and someone less. This theory also taught me that there are no unimportant problems. If a person is bad, then this is a problem. It's all about perception. Everything can really be calculated and freedom of choice is an illusion. Everywhere and always.
I can't express how surprised I was when I read your post. It's like I wrote it myself. Marvelous.
In addition, I will add that the fact that we reached these thoughts was also predetermined.
Sorry, Google Translate.

 

[Cryptonite]

This is an assumption that is false.
I would have not ended in this debilitating situation if I was cared for and wanted—especially by my family; that, which is does not exist.
I would have never gone from home to home, I would have never met my trauma and the plethora of pain that arose as a result of the rest.
I am not a biological experiment to be researched for someone else's philosophy.
I am able to take back my volition—now in my ability to suicide.

Neither I. As Ryan once told me before,
"Fate's not something set in stone. If you really want to change it all you have to do is believe. Even if it comes off a bit cliche."

I see what you mean, but as horrible as it sounds, and as much I hate them for you, did these people have a choice? Hard determinism says they did not. My father abused me, but at the same time, the inputs (neurons) in his brain (be it nature or nurture) made it impossible for him to behave differently.

One of the characteristics of determinism is that it has no regards for people's feelings. If we step out of the area of brain and go to the external world (which is essentially the same, because both environments are based on physical laws)... scaffolding will fall on your head based on the laws of gravity, your suffering plays no role in this process. (although probably a bad example, because we want scaffolding to fall on our heads, but I hope you get what I mean)

I know why bad things happen to me. It's no mistery at all. It's because I make bad decisions.

Are you genuinely in charge of these decisions? Or is it just an illusion? Are you responsible for the inputs that go into your decisions? Personality, genes, experience, immediate circumstances, hell even physical environment.

What about the people who go through the exact same thing we do but are not even considering suicide?
Maybe what we have been through is predetermined, but not the fact that we are suicidal (at least not for this reason, I guess).
I used to believe suicide was my destiny and I am still pretty sure that's how I am dying, but that's my decision, it's not my destiny (even though it feels like it sometimes). I mean, things could change.
In my opinion, we decide what we do with our misery.

Suicide is also a part of the determinism. What you're suggesting is, people have no choice in one thing, but they do have choice in some other thing. It is really a tempting conclusion that I also tend to make. My favourite one is: "Doctors made a medical mistake which ruined my life, but my mom could have saved me." In reality, nobody has a choice over anything. Even the fact that you formulated this text just as you formulated it wasn't your choice. It was based on your language, your personality, your verbal abilities, your emotions etc., everything out of your control.

Our lives are this way because there has to be winners and losers in this world. Now that all there is to determine is if each of us wants to be on display for people to look at and be grateful they aren't us, or do we want to end our own suffering. Not everyone can win in life. RNG just decided that we cannot.

This is very interesting because you seem to have touched upon the idea of statistics. I think this article will be very interesting for you:

Does anyone else think the same as me. Everyone to whom I spoke about this either could not understand me or did not agree. I'm still not completely sure that this is exactly the case, but every day I'm more and more inclined towards this version. This made me understand that there is no guilt, as such. People really acted in the only way possible for them. They could be in the same situation, but someone initially has more strength and patience, and someone less. This theory also taught me that there are no unimportant problems. If a person is bad, then this is a problem. It's all about perception. Everything can really be calculated and freedom of choice is an illusion. Everywhere and always.
I can't express how surprised I was when I read your post. It's like I wrote it myself. Marvelous.
In addition, I will add that the fact that we reached these thoughts was also predetermined.
Sorry, Google Translate.

Yes, it is a normal reaction of people to disagree with this concept. But it is always normal to disagree with something that people do not understand. Funnily enough, the logic behind the lack of free will is quite clear. For some, it is is also an uncomfortable truth (for us it's usually more comforting).

Exactly as you say, there is no guilt. There are authors who specifically write about lack of free will as it relates to guilt and moral responsibility, for example Bruce N. Waller, but many others as well. Because people's behavior is based fully on external factors, the concept of guilt is really an illusion.

I also agree with your conclusion that there are no unimportant problems. And you're right, the fact we have reached these thoughts is also predetermined. You seem to be a very bright and empathetic person.

 

[SexyIncél]

Thanks for the recommendation, I was reading through Sam Harris's book last night!

I think there's a practical problem: we don't think that way. It might work for a while, but some may find it wears off like self-help. Because above the physical level of atoms/molecules, we discover entities with agency: decisionmaking power

Still, we can get the benefits you mention. As Sam points out, most decisionmaking is unconscious. We're running around on autopilot all day. Human window of consciousness may be around 10 seconds long. It can be extended to hours in conversation, which means our main experience of consciousness is in conversation

So ok, maybe we have free will. But STILL we're mostly on autopilot. Unconscious

---

Noam Chomsky talks about this. Also, Christian List mentions levels above the physical; here's an intro to such philosophies

 

[Cryptonite]

Thanks for the recommendation, I was reading through Sam Harris's book last night!

I think there's a practical problem: we don't think that way. It might work for a while, but some may find it wears off like self-help. Because above the physical level of atoms/molecules, we discover entities with agency: decisionmaking power

Still, we can get the benefits you mention. As Sam points out, most decisionmaking is unconscious. We're running around on autopilot all day. Human window of consciousness may be around 10 seconds long. It can be extended to hours in conversation, which means our main experience of consciousness is in conversation

So ok, maybe we have free will. But STILL we're mostly on autopilot. Unconscious

---

Noam Chomsky talks about this. Also, Christian List mentions levels above the physical; here's an intro to such philosophies

I have to agree, we don't think that way.

I still hate the doctors who misdiagnosed even if they couldn't have acted otherwise.

 

[Methuselah Fallen]

Your post has certainly challenged my thinking, and in some ways I think I can agree. The more I think about it, the more I realize that you're probably right - our entire code was made to generate a brain at the start and continue developing it in an exact way. Everything that comes out of it is somewhere, somehow, in that genetic code. We can sit and say that trauma changed our brains away from how it was created, but the person who inflicted that trauma's brain was created the same as yours - it grew from the start. You might say that their actions were begotten from trauma, and all the way up the chain... but if our brain was always supposed to be this way, then I see what you are saying. 'Biological flesh puppet' kinda stuff. I like it.