Discussion There are supposed to be more FTM- than MTF-people but FTM are practically invisible because...

[ChildrensITV]

This is my theory. I am not a stubborn bonehead. If I am wrong, I invite evidence to prove me wrong.

I have heard how, apparently, there are more FTM-people than MTF in the world. If they had said that there are more (AFAB) females who identify as men or nonbinary, that would make more sense as nonbinary can be a phase in many girls' lives nowadays, but to suggest explicitly that the number of FTM-people is higher than MTF is crazy to me. Every site I go on, there are more MTF-transgenders. Where are all the FTM-trans hiding???

If you look at politics, let's be frank, nobody cares about FTM-people that much. Men don't need to worry about FTM-transgenders in our bathrooms, they don't affect male sports, men don't feel a "protection" over our "lived experience" and spaces. All the focus is on MTF transgenders.

It's funny how the suggestion is to call the "male" category of sports, the "open" category. I think that's a good metaphor for what men are. Just an open, default, vague category that nobody needs to care about or protect - sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for not-so-good reasons. FTM-trans go from being lusted over from an early age unwantedly, all eyes on them, sexual market through the clouds, included in the "women and children get to escape first cuz they're the most valuable" - they go from that to being a 5'2 man with their very lifegiving and "valuegiving" (reproductivewise) essence (womb, ovaries, functioning breasts) taken away (if they choose to have surgery). They go from having all this value to just being just another open, default being. The things that make females of all species the most valuable - their ability to give life - is stripped away so now they become irrelevant.

The focus is on MTFs. Some of it is because we see womanhood as something more worthy of protection. Becoming a man (for FTMs) is like relegating yourself to being more likely to be seen as a predator, it puts you in the role of needing to be a provider and protector, it prescribes that you must be tall, successful, dominant. You're more likely to fail as a male. How many homeless men vs women do you walk past on the street each week? Whereas becoming a woman (for MTFs) is seen as "cutting in line for benefits", trying to insert yourself into the privileged class, it puts you in the role of oppressed person, even though women are valued for what they are, whereas men struggle to be valued for what we do. Because how our biology works, men don't care about a woman's level of success in order for her to have value. She can have value just for being average-looking, relatively slim, and with some feminine features. And as a species, we think that a man who "inserts himself" into that role (MTFs) are "cheating" some kind of natural order.

FTMs tend to be infantilized. When FTMs get shouted down or harassed and thus, act meek and let's say, more shy, it reminds society that they are still of the female sex, and so empathy is offered. When MTFs get harassed and thus, act aggressive, it reminds society they are still of the male sex, so hostility is offered.

That is just my opinion. @BornTheWrongSex

 

[WorthlessTrash]

FTM are invisible because they generally pass after HRT and transitioning, due to how potent of a hormone Testosterone is. It is a lot easier for for FTM to pass than MTF (especially if the MTF started HRT a lot later in life). Testosterone is a blessing to FTM and a curse to MTF. You can probably go out into the world and mistake someone FTM as being cis male (unless you see them without their shirt and notice they had their breasts removed for GRS due to the scarring), while you can often tell someone who's MTF as being that because they cannot pass well due to testosterone destroying their body, unless they were fortunate enough to transition very early in their life.

Also, I don't mean to start a gender debate as this is just my personal bias, but being a female seems a bit more desirable than being a male (for a lot of reasons, not just my bias) so imo there are more MTF than FTM. However, I am unsure how we can quantify this to really know which is more dominant.

As far as suicide rates go, I would think there are a lot more MTF suicides than FTM because it all comes back to being able to pass flawlessly as your desired sex, which MTF have a lot harder of a time doing. Passing isn't just important from a social standpoint, but from also a self standpoint.

 

[ChildrensITV]

FTM are invisible because they generally pass after HRT and transitioning, due to how potent of a hormone Testosterone is. It is a lot easier for for FTM to pass than MTF (especially if the MTF started HRT a lot later in life). Testosterone is a blessing to FTM and a curse to MTF. You can probably go out into the world and mistake someone FTM as being cis male (unless you see them without their shirt and notice they had their breasts removed for GRS due to the scarring), while you can often tell someone who's MTF as being that because they cannot pass well due to testosterone destroying their body, unless they were fortunate enough to transition very early in their life.

Also, I don't mean to start a gender debate as this is just my personal bias, but being a female seems a bit more desirable than being a male (for a lot of reasons, not just my bias) so imo there are more MTF than FTM. However, I am unsure how we can quantify this to really know which is more dominant.

As far as suicide rates go, I would think there are a lot more MTF suicides than FTM because it all comes back to being able to pass flawlessly as your desired sex, which MTF have a lot harder of a time doing. Passing isn't just important from a social standpoint, but from also a self standpoint.

I was going to mention this in the op, but I didn't want it to get too wordy. This is definitely a factor. I wouldn't say testosterone DESTROYS the body though. It masculinizes it, but it doesn't cause limbs to die off, organs to fail or skin to turn into boils! You could argue that a fetus' body is DESTROYED in the womb if it develops male however.

 

[WorthlessTrash]

I was going to mention this in the op, but I didn't want it to get too wordy. This is definitely a factor. I wouldn't say testosterone DESTROYS the body though. It masculinizes it, but it doesn't cause limbs to die off, organs to fail or skin to turn into boils! You could argue that a fetus' body is DESTROYED in the womb if it develops male however.

In the context of desiring to be female, masculanitizing it IS destroying the body (but I also call it destroying the body because I find masculinity and being male overall pretty fucking cringe).

 

[Pluto]

I think that's a good metaphor for what men are. Just an open, default, vague category that nobody needs to care about or protect

I can't comment on the trans issues beyond sharing my respect of what a difficult situation is for all affected.

But I have to take exception to the MRA narrative about women being a 'privileged class'; this overlooks the fact that low-status people of all backgrounds can be brutalised by society. Low-status men, left to rot because they have no intrinsic value, are somewhat lucky compared to the way low-status women can be used, abused and preyed upon in ways too horrific to mention.

Only in a non-predatory society where there are minimum standards of respect for all people (and God forbid other life forms on the planet) will these issues start to be overcome. And the starting point is respecting the legitimate grievances of all people, including those different to ourselves.

 

[WorthlessTrash]

I can't comment on the trans issues beyond sharing my respect of what a difficult situation is for all affected.

But I have to take exception to the MRA narrative about women being a 'privileged class'; this overlooks the fact that low-status people of all backgrounds can be brutalised by society. Low-status men, left to rot because they have no intrinsic value, are somewhat lucky compared to the way low-status women can be used, abused and preyed upon in ways too horrific to mention.

I would have to disagree here. If you're a woman, it seems that society is more likely to take pity and assist and care about you than if you're a man. Men are expected to be providers and efficient, so if you're a male and homeless/poor, society will probably think it is your fault and not be sympathetic.

 

[ChildrensITV]

I can't comment on the trans issues beyond sharing my respect of what a difficult situation is for all affected.

But I have to take exception to the MRA narrative about women being a 'privileged class'; this overlooks the fact that low-status people of all backgrounds can be brutalised by society. Low-status men, left to rot because they have no intrinsic value, are somewhat lucky compared to the way low-status women can be used, abused and preyed upon in ways too horrific to mention.

Only in a non-predatory society where there are minimum standards of respect for all people (and God forbid other life forms on the planet) will these issues start to be overcome. And the starting point is respecting the legitimate grievances of all people, including those different to ourselves.

In my country, women get favoured for housing more than men. In fact, many landlords will let a woman rack up arrears in unpaid rent whereas a man's shit would be put outside the house. The local authority here has schemes for getting women into housing whereas a lot of men can be thrown out of their house, even if they own it, and their wife has a restraining order on them or something. It happened to a family member of mine. She took his house, he slept in a rented room. A lot of women here will use pregnancy to bump them up the list to get accommodation. You get govt assistance if you have kids too. In the US, when we started to see more women having to pay alimony, that's when certain people decided the laws were too draconian. They were fine before for some reason. Hmmm.

I think we can agree that FTM-trans have a more peaceful life in general than MTF-trans. (EDIT, I mean in comparison. I wasn't trying to say they have life peaceful!. Think of it like this: Someone who hates a trans-man will usually believe they are a woman, so the harassment will be the type that they think a woman should receive, usually verbal. Someone who hates trans-women will usually believe they are a man so the harassment will be the type that they think a man should receive: harsher, maybe physical)

 

[cgrtt.brns]

i do agree that at least online i do see more mtf's, but in irl trans spaces there are definitely more ftm's. i think this is unfortunately due to internalised misogyny and transphobia, even from ftm's. many mtf's feel that a lot of trans spaces are not safe places for them to be, which is really concerning and something i really wish was different as irl trans spaces can be really helpful especially for mental wellbeing. i think there just needs to be more widespread public education around trans topics to help challenge these very archaic ideas around the "value" of each sex and start to see people as individuals rather than groups of different minorities. hope this made sense.

 

[spøgelse]

Historically there have always been more MtF. I've personally never met another trans person in real life, however in niche online spaces that I participate in there is still about a 70/30 ratio (70 for MtF, 30 for FtM).

Most of us also have an easier time passing/going stealth. Of course there are exceptions but those are rare compared to MtF. You can be a man who is short and has wide hips and no one will bat an eye as long as you don't act off. You may be mocked a little for looking girly, but unless you live in a hyper woke area no one will assume you're trans or were born female. MtF have it much harder because if you're female and have shoulders that are just a little too big you'll immediately be called a man. Women generally have to hold up to higher standards, which means so do transsex women.

I've seen suicide rates be equal or vary a few percent between each other. No one group is more suicidal than the other, despite transsex men generally facing less issues socially than transsex women. Maybe it's due to feeling like a failure of a man, at least that is what it is for me. I can't speak for everyone.

Last study I read showed 46% for trans men and 44% for trans women. Again, varies between studies though.

 

[ChildrensITV]

i do agree that at least online i do see more mtf's, but in irl trans spaces there are definitely more ftm's. i think this is unfortunately due to internalised misogyny and transphobia, even from ftm's. many mtf's feel that a lot of trans spaces are not safe places for them to be, which is really concerning and something i really wish was different as irl trans spaces can be really helpful especially for mental wellbeing. i think there just needs to be more widespread public education around trans topics to help challenge these very archaic ideas around the "value" of each sex and start to see people as individuals rather than groups of different minorities. hope this made sense.

It makes sense but to undo thousands of years of biological programming is not going to happen in our lifetimes, outside of a few Leftist circles. You look at any species and it is the male who has to do the mating dance, who has to be colourful enough to woo, who has to do the convincing and in some cases, forcefully. Nature is pretty fucked-up IMO.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I have also noticed that it is mainly MTF that seem most prominant. I just assumed it was because there were more. It surprises me you say there are in fact more FTM.

I sometimes wonder if it's because in society- it is more 'acceptable' for women to act and dress like men than the reverse. While I'm not trans- I'm far more masculine than feminine. I can to some extent live like this without many people even noticing. It's 'acceptable' for women to wear trousers and do jobs that were considered male dominated.

It reminds me of that Madonna song: 'What it feels like for a girl':

'Girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots 'cause it's okay to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
'Cause you think that being a girl is degrading'

I'd say we probably speak from our own biases. You clearly view women as the privelaged sex and men as the non entity. My experience as a woman has included chauvinism. I would say only a tiny fraction of women enjoy the kind of privelages you mention and they do so at great cost- chances are, they're permanently restriting food to keep their figures. Anyhow- sorry- off topic sexist rant there...

From personal experience- I knew someone who transitioned MTF at my former workplace. It was mainly the men that felt threatened and even repulsed by her. I got the distinct impression that it was homophobia in their case. Not that I think this person was actually gay but I got the impression that the straight guys there were worried they'd somehow be tricked into sleeping with a man.

 

[ferret-in-a-sock]

Dunno, FTM is really just invisible. I mean, people forget that's even an option. I'm one. I don't get my panties in a twist about what people think of issues, but living in the Southern US of A, no one seems to know they exist.

I personally prefer being a guy over a gal or at least being seen as one. People leave you alone a lot more. And I'm not mad at the muscles you get for free. Hey, ya don't hulk out, but suddenly lifting becomes a lot easier--back muscles aren't as developed naturally in gals. Then there's less pressure to be cute and nice. I can be bitchy without getting a lady yelling for a manager.

I can spot other FTM/MTF that don't pass/pass less so easily. Ive seen like 3-4 MTF and 3-4 FTM in my town. Most of the FTM I can spot haven't started testosterone or started it recently. My old coworker I'd never have figured out he was FTM if he hadn't said it. There's MTF I met I feel sorry for. 4+ years on HRT and well...they don't really pass. It's gonna become criminal in my state to use the wrong bathroom, but honestly, I'm not going back.

People say the men's bathroom is grosser? Blatantly untrue. And the graffiti is funnier. And there's not a long ass line for the bathroom. Honestly, before I was trans I've done the "women's bathroom line too long. We risk the men's!"

 

[ChildrensITV]

I have also noticed that it is mainly MTF that seem most prominant. I just assumed it was because there were more. It surprises me you say there are in fact more FTM.

I wonder how the statistics were arrived at cuz you almost have to SEARCH to find news about FTM. It's the MTF who are more prominent and making demands when it comes to bathrooms, sports, etc. I don't think I've seen a single FTM campaign to use a men's bathroom.

I sometimes wonder if it's because in society- it is more 'acceptable' for women to act and dress like men than the reverse. While I'm not trans- I'm far more masculine than feminine. I can to some extent live like this without many people even noticing. It's 'acceptable' for women to wear trousers and do jobs that were considered male dominated.

I agree. This might be part of it.

I'd say we probably speak from our own biases. ...My experience as a woman has included chauvinism.

I agree that some men are chauvinist, but in younger generations, women are the gatekeepers of relationships - thanks to dating apps and social media - and so can't really complain about a chauvinistic boyfriend if they picked him from among their 9000 matches. Men barely get 10 or 20. It's disingenuous to think that only the top 20% of women are lusted after and then to say, "all women have to fear unawanted attention from men".

I would say only a tiny fraction of women enjoy the kind of privelages you mention and they do so at great cost- chances are, they're permanently restriting food to keep their figures. Anyhow- sorry- off topic sexist rant there...

Plenty of men like BBW women. Plenty of men are "feeders".

I am not saying women don't have any struggles at all by the way.

From personal experience- I knew someone who transitioned MTF at my former workplace. It was mainly the men that felt threatened and even repulsed by her. I got the distinct impression that it was homophobia in their case. Not that I think this person was actually gay but I got the impression that the straight guys there were worried they'd somehow be tricked into sleeping with a man.

I forgot about that aspect! The FEAR aspect! Good point. So let's do a comparison:
FTM:
- Women don't care about them; feel sorry for them.
- Men don't care about them; feel sorry for them.
MTF:
- Women fear them physically; feel they are appropriating womanhood.
- Men fear being intimate with one inadvertently; feel they are appropriating womanhood.

I wonder if that is played on this forum? Do the MTF people here experience a different type of aversion/dislike than FTM people do?

Dunno, FTM is really just invisible. I mean, people forget that's even an option. I'm one. I don't get my panties in a twist about what people think of issues, but living in the Southern US of A, no one seems to know they exist.

I personally prefer being a guy over a gal or at least being seen as one. People leave you alone a lot more. And I'm not mad at the muscles you get for free. Hey, ya don't hulk out, but suddenly lifting becomes a lot easier--back muscles aren't as developed naturally in gals. Then there's less pressure to be cute and nice. I can be bitchy without getting a lady yelling for a manager.

I can spot other FTM/MTF that don't pass/pass less so easily. Ive seen like 3-4 MTF and 3-4 FTM in my town. Most of the FTM I can spot haven't started testosterone or started it recently. My old coworker I'd never have figured out he was FTM if he hadn't said it. There's MTF I met I feel sorry for. 4+ years on HRT and well...they don't really pass. It's gonna become criminal in my state to use the wrong bathroom, but honestly, I'm not going back.

People say the men's bathroom is grosser? Blatantly untrue. And the graffiti is funnier. And there's not a long ass line for the bathroom. Honestly, before I was trans I've done the "women's bathroom line too long. We risk the men's!"

You seem comfortable in your transition. Can I ask why you want to CTB? For something else?