Discussion (Theory) suicide is an evolved trait

[Ta555]

Biological drive may be the wrong term tbf. I was replying directly to Ta555's comments saying that the reason for people's suicide is down to social norms and societal pressures because for me it's not those things. However the term I used doesn't quite fit what I mean so I should have rephrased. Basically I was healthy and very happy, living a good life, full of potential and had no reason to be suicidal until my health, memory and cognition were severely impacted by something and it took away any quality of life to the point where I'm just existing. In fact the only thing stopping me from ctb at the moment is my loved ones and the concern I have for the impact it would have on them. Therefore my reason and urge to ctb is a result of biological problems. I didn't mean for it to sound like I considered it a biologically programmed thing and there was no other reason. Back on that theory point though, I don't think it's possible to rule out biological programming in some form as it would still theoretically and logically require a certain sef of cercumstances to be met before it was to be triggered. Similar to fight or flight, fear, anger, happiness and any other emotional trigger for a complex series of chemical reactions to occur in your body and start a chain of events that may appear mental in origin but really are not. For me, there is no point in me living in constant suffering from my health issues as there isn't any escape or potential improvements so the logical conclusion really is death and if it won't happen naturally my instinct is to pull the switch myself. That instinct comes from somewhere and it isn't social pressure or any other outside influence. I guess it may be psychological in its logic but triggered by my biological state.

I didn't mean people reasons for ctb were social I meant different societies at different periods have made it a lot easier to ctb by making it acceptable. I'm actually in the same boat as you with regards to health and neurological issues and having a good life before this. The only thing stopping me is fear of failure and not wanting to leave my friends/family behind. But all the time I feel a little bit closer to ctb.

 

[Smart No More]

I didn't mean people reasons for ctb were social I meant different societies at different periods have made it a lot easier to ctb by making it acceptable. I'm actually in the same boat as you with regards to health and neurological issues and having a good life before this. The only thing stopping me is fear of failure and not wanting to leave my friends/family behind. But all the time I feel a little bit closer to ctb.

Ah my bad. I must have misunderstood you. I think I was thrown by your opening sentence

"Personally I don't think it's an evolved biological trait but a cultural one"

And then it was solidified in my initial view by your closing sentence.

"I don't think there's a biological drive to suicide in anyone for no reason (there's always a reason behind it) but cultural pressure or norms make it really easy when you decide you've had enough."

.... But I can see how I misinterpreted it. My apologies.


Previously I was very literate and calculated person. I found pleasure in detail but now my cognition is so badly impacted I struggle to do even the simplest of things. Writing a cohesive post being one of them. I honestly have mourned the person I was for over a year now and almost don't remember the feeling of inhabiting my body back then. Things were so different. It's truly tragic!

I'm sorry to read/hear that you're suffering with something similar. You appear to have a bit more of your faculties lwft than myself but I may be assuming incorrectly. I won't derail the thread by asking you to expand on your health issues but I'm interested if you ever want to chat about it with someone that might actually get it. You may be lucky enough to already have that in family friends but the intetest/offer stands. No pressure of course. I have only so much capacity in any one day so I get it either way. Peace.

 

[gottago222]

i thought this thread would be interesting but now im traumatized, thanks yall

 

[Smart No More]

i thought this thread would be interesting but now im traumatized, thanks yall

What's traumatised you?

 

[gottago222]

What's traumatised you?

this incest talk kill me now fam

 

[Smart No More]

Ah, right. Got you.

 

[Snake of Eden]

this incest talk kill me now fam

I know I feel the same way

 

[idiotstillwantstodie]

I know I feel the same way

Go to the middle east where most people marry their cousins, in some cases multiple cousins, you pussies!

 

[eternalpeace]

I don't think I have the requisite knowledge to weigh in on your theory, but it sounds interesting.

The one thing running through my mind is a line from one of Marya Hornbacher's books, either "Wasted" or "Madness", I can't remember which. She is talking about being anorexic, and she says something about how it feels both interesting and unique, "because so many people are not", yet also banal and common, "because so many people are". I think suicidality is like that, especially if it recurs over time as opposed to during one period of hardship.

 

[Insomniac]

i don't see anything wrong with consensual incest per se, as long as birth control is taken care of.

I see everything wrong with consented incest dude wtf?

For me it's the profoundly tribalistic aspect of it that I find extremely disgusting. Relationships aren't only for pleasure, it's supposed to be a way to form alliance with other human beings, to explore differents ways, it's a political thing also. Families can't just be islands into themselves.

It's just so unethical in every aspects. It's lazy as fuck and can lead to severe complications (like children and parents not knowing were the boundaries lie anymore. If this becomes a legal thing in society and people actually start doing it, it'll definitely severely disturb everyone else's foundations).

Nothing good can come out of consented incest. It's the pinnacle of a deprived hedonistic mindset.

the dangers of "open mindedness" is the complete inability to impose boundaries or see their value. This is the symptom of a profoundly capitalistic society. Nothing admirable in a mind that has no will of fair discernment whatsoever.

 

[little helpers]

Yeah, the idea that old and less physically-able people are useless is, I suspect, something early humans would generally have looked on with bemusement. These people can still carry out many essential and time-consuming tasks like making tools, clothing, etc and can also look after the young, freeing up more time for the other adults in the group to gather food. Also they will have knowledge, skills and experience which might prove invaluable to the long-term survival of the group. We often see evidence of horrific injuries in the remains of prehistoric humans which were sustained, and healed, years before the individual's actual death, indicating that badly injured people were cared for and not just allowed to die. Also, from what I've read, suicide is extremely rare in contemporary hunter-gatherer societies, leading me to believe that it is largely a phenomenon of agricultural, "settled" societies.

^ absolutely this. we're on this thread so let's educate each other on anthropology.

the grandmother effect is a well-known one. having old people in the tribe increases progeny's survival. the only reason granddads are excluded is becuz humans didn't understand sex/reproduction all that well back then. it's easy to know child came out your womb. now who's the dad? uh, dunno. lol.

I worked regularly on community farms in the past. some people got mobility restrictions but they did just as much on their own tasks. there is a place for everybody. whereas hunter-gatherer tribes are not as individualist as the capitalist society is anyways. output is counted as a whole. and like, quieter jobs also mean you consume less energy. gatherers bring food to the tribe no matter what. brings stability with their less physically-demanding efforts. hunters run on chance. sweat themselves out and still didn't catch game.

the disabled and/or old people thing should work pretty much like the gatherers part, I think.

 

[idiotstillwantstodie]

I see everything wrong with consented incest dude wtf?

I don't

It's just so unethical in every aspects. It's lazy as fuck and can lead to severe complications (like children and parents not knowing were the boundaries lie anymore. If this becomes a legal thing in society and people actually start doing it, it'll definitely severely disturb everyone else's foundations).

Explain to me how/why it would ever become a thing?

As i said, it's very unrealistic that sex ever happens between closely related people who are not mentally ill in some way, because the reality is completely opposite to the "theory of suppressed sexual attraction between relatives" you referred to earlier. Biological relatives don't lust for each other, on the contrary.

I get that where your coming from inbreeding is an actual problem and the culture is very different. But you are not giving any convincing arguments about why i should be so abhorred about the concept of consensual incest. The concept doesn't bother me one bit, because it's completely unrealistic people would ever start practicing it widespread.

 

[Insomniac]

because it's completely unrealistic people would ever start practicing it widespread.

do you realise that people felt that way about homosexuality a few centuries ago? And do you realise that humans used to practice incest for example prince's and princesses to keep their blood pure? Cleopatra and her young brother is a famous example. If people did this in the past what makes you so sure they can't do it today?

All the favorable conditions are coming together. People are losing their social skills and everything is becoming digitised, automated etc. People can even have children without having sex (just send your sperm by email). With the advance of technology and industrialisation, it's clear that relationships have morphed. Traditional family structure is less and less important to people. People are starting to only care about quick pleasures. people are litteraly okay with the idea of human-robot relationship (in pop culture, novies, animes, human-robot love is such a frequent theme now).

All that to say that it's totally possible that we end up in this situation since we're currently being trained to be desensitised to traditional family structure and to be completely indifferent to the very concept of family.

Also, your reply was a reframing of the original statement I was replying to. I was replying to you saying that there is nothing wrong with consensual incest. I wasn't arguing about wether or not it'd happen.

Edit: also another point: statistics say that Islam is the fastest growing religion. It's perfectly reasonable to expect people accross the world to become progressively desensitised to incestuous cousin marriage. Not to mention that Muslims aren't the only ones doing this shit.

 

[idiotstillwantstodie]

do you realise that people felt that way about homosexuality a few centuries ago? And do you realise that humans used to practice incest for example prince's and princesses to keep their blood pure? Cleopatra and her young brother is a famous example. If people did this in the past what makes you so sure they can't do it today?

I'm very much aware of this and i don't decadent practices of upper classes of ancient civilizations are a very timely example.

All that to say that it's totally possible that we end up in this situation.

Sure and it's totally possible that furry porn becomes the number one mainstream thing.

Also, your reply was a reframing of the original statement I was replying to. I was replying to you saying that there is nothing wrong with consensual incest. I wasn't arguing about wether or not it's happen.

One of your arguments against it seemed to be the presumption that it could become a widespread practice unless opposed. I personally don't see this possibility.

 

[Insomniac]

One of your arguments against it seemed to be the presumption that it could become a widespread practice unless opposed

this part?:

If this becomes a legal thing in society and people actually start doing it, it'll definitely severely disturb everyone else's foundations).

If you read again, I was saying that if some people start to do it without legal sanction or social stigmatisation, everyone else (parents-children relationships) will be severely impacted in a negative way. People, especially children, will be deeply disturbing and scared. If you don't understand what I'm saying, then I guess you're just really far gone. Your sister really fucked you up and you don't even realise it judging by how lightly you were talking about what she did to you. I'd have murdered my sibling if they did something like that to me

 

[idiotstillwantstodie]

Your sister really fucked you up and you don't even realise it judging by how lightly you were talking about what she did to you. I'd have murdered my sibling if they did something like that to me

She didn't do anything to me lol, when i said she "tried to boink me", i meant she tried to persuade me to have sex with her.

Which i wasn't even remotely interested of because: 1) she is sick 2) she is a b*tch 3) she is my sister. In that order.

 

[Insomniac]

She didn't do anything to me lol, when i said she "tried to boink me", i meant she tried to persuade me to have sex with her.

ah, sorry. I used a translation app and in my native language it's a slang to say "jump someone". Now that I think about it, it'd have been strange for your sister to try to "jump" you..

In that order.

I don't go out of my room much. I'm scared of meeting people like you.

 

[idiotstillwantstodie]

I don't go out of my room much. I'm scared of meeting people like you.

Honestly, the feeling is mutual

 

[Insomniac]

Honestly, the feeling is mutual

good.

 

[idiotstillwantstodie]

good.

good.

 

[Gsvko]

When I used to google intelligence and suicide, articles almost always linked it with lower iq. But I guess it takes a certain level of intellingence to realise you're not intelligent ?

(I consider myself emotionally handicaped.)

Edit: Also, what someone else mentioned.
...I think I'd be the first one to die if it was still for natural selection, premodern society.

 

[Istanbulite]

I guess no sentient beings other than humans have ever committed suicide?

I heard about the few dog stories indeed but they were still related to a human effect. any suicide happens in the wild among animals?