The universe is the root of all suffering.

[Darkover]

I feel that too many antinatalists place too much focus on the domain of life without putting much thought into the physical universe itself. Ultimately, the main problem is the universe itself, or existence - life is just an effect.

Obviously, it's impossible to destroy the roots of life (existence/universe) and so we're already fucked from the start. We're forced to deal a symptom of existence instead, life.

But, antinatalism is essentially a temporary band-aid fix to a deeper problem. i don't see the life machine stopping unless some extinction event occurs despite our efforts.

Honestly, if we are truthful about all of this, the plague of suffering will continue forever as long as this universe exists. Stopping the flow of life permanently is a mere pipe-dream that we all like to circlejerk on.

It's all futile.

I wish I was God to undo the universe because that's the only way to end this wretched, cursed world.

Humanity has existed for a very, very short time on the scale of the Universe. It's possible that we will go extinct eventually, but then evolution will create new self-aware sentient beings, thus continuing the cycle. It's all a joke, the universe is cold and it doesn't care in the slightest. I guess we can minimize the suffering by not spitting out children, but in the grand scheme of things, it really is futile.

 

[SevenDayWeekend]

If you believe in god in that sense (which I do not) then they created the universe and how it functions intentionally - this isn't an entity that anyone should be praising. A cruel, selfish pedant who feeds of death and dis-ease. This isn't a god, it's a spiteful, pitiful creature that is just higher up than us on the food chain. If you tear the wings off a butterfly, you are a "god" to that butterfly in the same way the judeo-christian-islamic "god" is to us.

 

[The Burning Fool]

If you believe in god in that sense (which I do not) then they created the universe and how it functions intentionally - this isn't an entity that anyone should be praising. A cruel, selfish pedant who feeds of death and dis-ease. This isn't a god, it's a spiteful, pitiful creature that is just higher up than us on the food chain. If you tear the wings off a butterfly, you are a "god" to that butterfly in the same way the judeo-christian-islamic "god" is to us.

Granted that God / Allah exists, "He" is evil and we are evil. We might as well worship "Him" or rebel against Him, doesn't really matter in the end. Heaven / Jannah can become a source of suffering, Hell / Jahannam can become a source of pleasure. I'm on the highway to hell, or oblivion. Can't do anything about it, because God / Allah has already written what I'll believe and do.

But it's all fake and wrong understanding coming out of apes' brains.

 

[Circles]

Are you acquainted with something called 'infinite regress'? The definition is: A causal relationship transmitted through an indefinite number of terms in a series, with no term that begins the causal chain. It basically means turtles all the way down and that trying to find the root cause or baseline for why things are the way they are is pointless nevertheless impossible cause us humans will never find to actually true root of all suffering. It's basically like Russian Matryoshka dolls that's infinite. The term Universe is such a broad term especially since it means everything in existence. Whether it's the actual Universe per se or something else entirely is something that we can never truly know cause for every layer we unveil another layer comes to being. The only certainty in this universe is where there is life there is suffering.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I understand where you're coming from but, you're also making that judgement for every living thing. Living thing's that possibly don't experience pain the way we do and even if they do- they may not be quite so troubled by it. I do get it by the way. Nature looks horrendously cruel to us but I suppose I see that attitude a bit like missionary work. Of course they were apalled when the came across cultures like the Aztecs, sacrificing people to their Gods. Did that give them the right to impose their views on them instead?

Honestly- I always find the argument a little odd because it surely finds things like murder and genocide positive things to be celebrated.

Do plants do as much damage as other creatures? They mostly create their food from photosynthesis. Where's the harm in sun bathing and drinking water? But- they deserve to go too presumably?

Regardless though, I suppose most people don't think about annihilating all life because they know they can't. I think a fair few antinatilists would be ok with humans going extinct leaving everything else to thrive. I think many see our level of self awareness as the problem. That maybe other creatures are spared at least the mental anguish we have because (supposedly,) they can't reason like we can. I think it's probably true. Otherwise- I imagine we'd see a lot more obvious suicides in the animal kingdom. (Not counting zoos and lemmings, which don't actually kill themselves.)

But yeah- I suppose people either don't think it because it's magical thinking. They do think it but realise it's magical thinking- like- everything will be ok when I win the lottery. Or, they don't think it's right to make those decisions for all other living creatures- mass genocide doesn't appeal to everyone.

 

[Darkover]

Are you acquainted with something called 'infinite regress'?

no first time I've heard of this infinite regress

the actual Universe per se or something else entirely is something that we can never truly know cause for every layer we unveil another layer comes to being.

i don't believe in infinite nor do i believe atoms can be broken down into smaller and smaller pieces for infinity nor do i believe in higher dimensions

Where's the harm in sun bathing and drinking water? But- they deserve to go too presumably?

this universe needs to go to ensure there is no life anywhere

mass genocide doesn't appeal to everyone.

destroying the universe is the only way to ensure i am never born again
i hate the universe and want to destroy it
this shit as to go

 

[Circles]

no first time I've heard of this infinite regress

i don't believe in infinite nor do i believe atoms can be broken down into smaller and smaller pieces for infinity nor do i believe in higher dimensions

Part of the reason I somewhat believe we live in a simulated universe is when I mentioned *for every layer of reality we unveil another comes to being. Just as scientists discovered the quantum realm and how there's a whole other dimension to this universe much smaller than atoms and its parts. Basically the question is would everything we look deeper into exists on its own accord or would it just happen to appear wherever there's an observer? Yes there's most likely a limit to what us humans are capable of seeing, but does that mean it keeps going ad infinitum? I believe it does, but believing isn't science or truth.

 

[Darkover]

Part of the reason I somewhat believe we live in a simulated universe is when I mentioned *for every layer of reality we unveil another comes to being. Basically the question is would everything we look deeper into exists on its own accord or would it just happen to appear wherever there's an observer? Yes there's most likely a limit to what us humans are capable of seeing, but does that mean it keeps going ad infinitum? I believe it does, but believing isn't science or truth.

i used to think we live in a simulation because you can do so much with mathematics and the rules of the universe behave mathematically but i draw the line with maths being able to create emotions heat cold sad happiness chemicals

 

[Chronosphere]

But should you even care about it? You are your own universe. Your death is the same thing as the death of the universe for you.

 

[Darkover]

But should you even care about it? You are your own universe. Your death is the same thing as the death of the universe for you.

i hope you're right i wouldn't ever want to exist again

 

[Chronosphere]

i hope you're right i wouldn't ever want to exist again

Even if something like reincarnation existed - you are your brain. New body = new brain. New body may like life a lot, who knows. Anyways, it won't be you.

 

[Darkover]

Even if something like reincarnation existed - you are your brain. New body = new brain. New body may like life a lot, who knows. Anyways, it won't be you.

i know but i wouldnt come alive to this evil universe and if does bring me alive again I'll have to find a way to destroy it

 

[Darkover]

does anyone know if it's possible to destroy the universe and how to do it?

none of us consented to these lives before being born since that is impossible without first being brought alive to get your consent, antinatalist insisted that consent is the foundation of being alive so you can't just destroy the universe because normies consent to these lives of suffering and death, so how do you go about ending this place without getting the consent of the population or do you just do it by brute force alone

 

[cosmic_traveler]

I feel that too many antinatalists place too much focus on the domain of life without putting much thought into the physical universe itself. Ultimately, the main problem is the universe itself, or existence - life is just an effect.

Obviously, it's impossible to destroy the roots of life (existence/universe) and so we're already fucked from the start. We're forced to deal a symptom of existence instead, life.

But, antinatalism is essentially a temporary band-aid fix to a deeper problem. i don't see the life machine stopping unless some extinction event occurs despite our efforts.

Honestly, if we are truthful about all of this, the plague of suffering will continue forever as long as this universe exists. Stopping the flow of life permanently is a mere pipe-dream that we all like to circlejerk on.

It's all futile.

I wish I was God to undo the universe because that's the only way to end this wretched, cursed world.

Humanity has existed for a very, very short time on the scale of the Universe. It's possible that we will go extinct eventually, but then evolution will create new self-aware sentient beings, thus continuing the cycle. It's all a joke, the universe is cold and it doesn't care in the slightest. I guess we can minimize the suffering by not spitting out children, but in the grand scheme of things, it really is futile.

This is tough. We admit to never have seen the term antinatalism before today but don't believe it's relevant.

You are not wrong, the universe is a fucked up place and for the most part, doesn't appear to be fair.

So what?

If the universe is a simulation and none of this is even real.

So what?

You've identified the game, it's your choice how you want to play.

We wish you well on your journey.

 

[sserafim]

Yeah that's true, but if you procreate, you're choosing to perpetuate the suffering. That's why procreation is the most selfish thing that you can do

does anyone know if it's possible to destroy the universe and how to do it?

none of us consented to these lives before being born since that is impossible without first being brought alive to get your consent, antinatalist insisted that consent is the foundation of being alive so you can't just destroy the universe because normies consent to these lives of suffering and death, so how do you go about ending this place without getting the consent of the population or do you just do it by brute force alone

To destroy the earth, the A-bomb and MAD (mutually assured destruction) would do it. Unfortunately, I don't know about the universe though

 

[Iamtired]

This is tough. We admit to never have seen the term antinatalism before today but don't believe it's relevant.

You are not wrong, the universe is a fucked up place and for the most part, doesn't appear to be fair.

So what?

If the universe is a simulation and none of this is even real.

So what?

You've identified the game, it's your choice how you want to play.

We wish you well on your journey.

UGH. your "choice". Not really.

 

[cosmic_traveler]

UGH. your "choice". Not really.

Backing out and not participating is also a choice.

 

[sserafim]

Backing out and not participating is also a choice.

Do you think that we consented to being born? Can we choose to not reincarnate?

 

[cosmic_traveler]

Do you think that we consented to being born? Can we choose to not reincarnate?

This opinion is probably not very well liked, but we believe that we chose this trip we're on right now. For whatever reason.

When it comes to reincarnation, we think people have a huge misunderstanding. Take a glass of water from the ocean, then dump it out into the water. Collect another glass. That's reincarnation. You will never be the same glass of water again.

Another way to look at it is with soap bubbles. Instead of a human body we are both soap bubbles. We are similar, one might be bigger or one might have more soap but we're just holding air. When those bubbles pop the air inside becomes the air outside. Now blow another bubble. That's reincarnation. You're never exactly the same bubble again.

 

[Darkover]

This opinion is probably not very well liked, but we believe that we chose this trip we're on right now. For whatever reason.

When it comes to reincarnation, we think people have a huge misunderstanding. Take a glass of water from the ocean, then dump it out into the water. Collect another glass. That's reincarnation. You will never be the same glass of water again.

Another way to look at it is with soap bubbles. Instead of a human body we are both soap bubbles. We are similar, one might be bigger or one might have more soap but we're just holding air. When those bubbles pop the air inside becomes the air outside. Now blow another bubble. That's reincarnation. You're never exactly the same bubble again.

I hope rebirth is just bullshit I wouldn't want to exist ever again

 

[frustratedcivilian]

This is tough. We admit to never have seen the term antinatalism before today but don't believe it's relevant.

You are not wrong, the universe is a fucked up place and for the most part, doesn't appear to be fair.

So what?

If the universe is a simulation and none of this is even real.

So what?

You've identified the game, it's your choice how you want to play.

We wish you well on your journey.

I always think of one thing, If any of us really knew what is it the universe or who we really are, they wouldn't be on a forum or at least will have something to prove - unless the truth of the universe is really just about that :: Nonsense, which i think it's in my opinion. We can talk about whatever we want and whatever we only think about at the moment, just like those who don't care about others, they just see life the way we see it, but in their opinion, everything is cool and existence is not a curse or anything.. When we think about suffering, we want it to stop somehow.. but when you think about happiness, we want every creature somehow to have that experience. What I think is, Nothing ever interacts with being in either state, but randomness and nonsense. Thinking about animals for example, is what I see the perfect example for that, The universe does not seem to care about anything, an animal will just die because another animal had attacked it, an insect will die because a giant human walked on it, another human in their bed thinking too much about their suffering but forgets how probably trillions or unlimited number of suffering and death that ever existed, and maybe how many accidental deaths they caused to other objects (That's An Example for Nonsense). The thing is, nothing ever cared.

I'm not attacking you personally, I respect everyone who has an opinion and does not justify others' suffering. I know a lot of history, at least in the place where I came from, I also know what you are talking about, however, this sounds like another thing that encourages fake positivity and that everything continues that way it's, which is obviously not something we want. During history, religions played same role, even until today, to justify different kinds of slavery, I'd love to discuss further with you about that if you want.

All what can be done, and was ever done is all by ourselves, universe never cared is all I know. Unless humans decide to reduce suffering, i do not think universe will help logical and intelligent humans, and ignore all kinds of suffering of other less intelligent objects. It's like a shame for humans to be at this point, for me, I don't believe this will ever happen, I just see the evidence everywhere.

 

[Iamtired]

Backing out and not participating is also a choice.

Didn't do that. Worked my whole life to end up with nerve damage and a body that doesn't work as well. Not really my choice.

i hope you're right i wouldn't ever want to exist again

So "you" just never want to have to exist in any form of consciousness again correct? Just wanted to get this straight because reincarnation and general existence being two different things. And going by physical laws of the world: Energy cannot be created or destroyed."
I genuinely hope reincarnation is not a thing at all. I never bought into it. I think it's more likely we go back to a star or something. But who tf knows

 

[cosmic_traveler]

I genuinely hope reincarnation is not a thing at all. I never bought into it. I think it's more likely we go back to a star or something. But who tf knows

We believe universe = God.

Breaking down the equation, the universe created particles that condensed into gases which collected to create stars. Stars fused heavier elements together to seed planet formation. Every living thing on this planet is born from the molecules in it's soil and atmosphere.

In the end, we are all made of star dust, and star dust we shall return.

 

[frustratedcivilian]

We believe universe = God.

Breaking down the equation, the universe created particles that condensed into gases which collected to create stars. Stars fused heavier elements together to seed planet formation. Every living thing on this planet is born from the molecules in it's soil and atmosphere.

In the end, we are all made of star dust, and star dust we shall return.

I do not usually care much for definitions, but I think that bringing god just makes it confusing, God has too many different imaginations from a religion to religion, and inside that religion, still different views of what god is. But what is common in all, is that god is either metaphysical or physical (like in some religion, gravity applies to god), and that it has intentions, justice, wisdom and maybe feelings so on, which is the opposite to what everyone sees, and what we know about history and what I mentioned earlier. Because I know what you meant by that, I think equalizing the god to universe is like trying to keep the ancient imagination that people created for themselves in the past. Universe is "god" if god here means randomness, injustice and probably not conscious as well. In my opinion, any real explanation to this existence, has to be something illogical to us, that can't be explained by our brains - because the existence itself is the same, it's illogical to go outside that scope, and any attempt to explain "god" will likely be another human imagination and contradicting object.

 

[xinino]

The universe is undoing itself, have you ever heard about heat death?

If you believe in god in that sense (which I do not) then they created the universe and how it functions intentionally - this isn't an entity that anyone should be praising. A cruel, selfish pedant who feeds of death and dis-ease. This isn't a god, it's a spiteful, pitiful creature that is just higher up than us on the food chain. If you tear the wings off a butterfly, you are a "god" to that butterfly in the same way the judeo-christian-islamic "god" is to us.

This creature is called entropy, and you as a low-entropy organism is his target to destroy. This is the law of the universe, which applies to everything, including electrons.

 

[cosmic_traveler]

I do not usually care much for definitions, but I think that bringing god just makes it confusing, God has too many different imaginations from a religion to religion, and inside that religion, still different views of what god is. But what is common in all, is that god is either metaphysical or physical (like in some religion, gravity applies to god), and that it has intentions, justice, wisdom and maybe feelings so on, which is the opposite to what everyone sees, and what we know about history and what I mentioned earlier. Because I know what you meant by that, I think equalizing the god to universe is like trying to keep the ancient imagination that people created for themselves in the past. Universe is "god" if god here means randomness, injustice and probably not conscious as well. In my opinion, any real explanation to this existence, has to be something illogical to us, that can't be explained by our brains - because the existence itself is the same, it's illogical to go outside that scope, and any attempt to explain "god" will likely be another human imagination and contradicting object.

True. We don't discount the idea that there may be a "divine architect".

Our "faith" is scientific. Big bang created particles. Particles created gas elements. Gas created stars. Stars created planets. This planet created all the life on it. We're certain other planets contain life as well considering the complexity of life of this planet. There are acid pits in India that contain bacteria which is not carbon based. (If I remember correctly, it's arsenic based life) That bacteria couldn't survive in another environment, but that environment isn't so unique that only planet Earth could produce it. Same goes for any planet with liquid on its surface.

So when we conclude that universe = God, it's the limit of our scientific human understanding. If something/someone kicked off the start of the universe, it's just a guess. Religion is a human invention to help people make sense of the world around them. It gives people a community, some people it gives them a purpose. We don't want to discourage how anyone chooses to proceed with their faith. If it makes them happy, why would we shit in their cereal?

 

[xinino]

no first time I've heard of this infinite regress

i don't believe in infinite nor do i believe atoms can be broken down into smaller and smaller pieces for infinity nor do i believe in higher dimensions

this universe needs to go to ensure there is no life anywhere

destroying the universe is the only way to ensure i am never born again
i hate the universe and want to destroy it
this shit as to go

Ironically, if you want to destroy the universe, this dispicable world can fulfill your wish, you can join heat death accelerationism. or you can also join effective accelerationism, where they are working to transcend the human race, therefore leaving the current human experience "extinction of current species."
you will never be born again.

 

[frustratedcivilian]

True. We don't discount the idea that there may be a "divine architect".

Our "faith" is scientific. Big bang created particles. Particles created gas elements. Gas created stars. Stars created planets. This planet created all the life on it. We're certain other planets contain life as well considering the complexity of life of this planet. There are acid pits in India that contain bacteria which is not carbon based. (If I remember correctly, it's arsenic based life) That bacteria couldn't survive in another environment, but that environment isn't so unique that only planet Earth could produce it. Same goes for any planet with liquid on its surface.

So when we conclude that universe = God, it's the limit of our scientific human understanding. If something/someone kicked off the start of the universe, it's just a guess. Religion is a human invention to help people make sense of the world around them. It gives people a community, some people it gives them a purpose. We don't want to discourage how anyone chooses to proceed with their faith. If it makes them happy, why would we shit in their cereal?

That makes sense, I just keep saying this information, but to make people not make a meaning or purpose out of that is hard lol. Like, Whatever it's what someone believes in, just don't mention anything about meaning or reason or justice or that everything is alright.

I don't agree with saying that we should make people happy by not correcting definitions and truths, I am sure at least 50% of SS forum traffic was from people who were victims to the systems that the ignorant people created. In your country, I don't know much but what I know is that a lot of people are suffering and I can predict why from what I've seen in the horrible place I'm from. It wasn't all about religion, but religion was like the remote control for the two regimes that were fighting each other in Egypt, One are Islamists and other is like the Nazi party. Nazis got rid of Islamists like 10 years ago, today the Nazis themselves turned into Islamists once they found people are a little more mad, and guess what? It never fails to work. Everyone likes diving in ignorance and participates in making these criminals rule the system that literally controls every second of their day and is the main reason for most suffering cases. Correct me if I'm wrong, that most people don't like how their regime functions, because it's made of stupid, old and greedy people... In a country like mine or yours, it might be more violent than others, so Individuals born in these places are likely to suffer not due to universe or big bang but stupid beliefs that stops people from motivating to make a change.

 

[cosmic_traveler]

That makes sense, I just keep saying this information, but to make people not make a meaning or purpose out of that is hard lol. Like, Whatever it's what someone believes in, just don't mention anything about meaning or reason or justice or that everything is alright.

I don't agree with saying that we should make people happy by not correcting definitions and truths, I am sure at least 50% of SS forum traffic was from people who were victims to the systems that the ignorant people created. In your country, I don't know much but what I know is that a lot of people are suffering and I can predict why from what I've seen in the horrible place I'm from. It wasn't all about religion, but religion was like the remote control for the two regimes that were fighting each other in Egypt, One are Islamists and other is like the Nazi party. Nazis got rid of Islamists like 10 years ago, today the Nazis themselves turned into Islamists once they found people are a little more mad, and guess what? It never fails to work. Everyone likes diving in ignorance and participates in making these criminals rule the system that literally controls every second of their day and is the main reason for most suffering cases. Correct me if I'm wrong, that most people don't like how their regime functions, because it's made of stupid, old and greedy people... In a country like mine or yours, it might be more violent than others, so Individuals born in these places are likely to suffer not due to universe or big bang but stupid beliefs that stops people from motivating to make a change.

Radical factions are going to radical. In the US, Christianity is "the norm". There's a tradition that after Sunday service large groups of church-goers will go to lunch together. These groups are often the most un-Christian members (incredibly rude and toxic with restaurant staff).

Religious groups will always lobby for authority and extremists will turn it into a form of government. The US has been struggling to keep the church and state separate since it's inception. We don't have the same problems Islamic states face, but if we're not careful we could become a fascist theocracy in no time.

You are probably correct, most people don't appreciate the regime their country has in place. Personally, we feel that humanity is in such a stupid place in history. There has never been more abundance and yet people starve and struggle. It. Doesn't. Make. Sense.

If the entire world would have a collective DMT experience, we could do away with borders, religion, and government. We would work collectively as a species to reach out to the stars and colonize the galaxy.