TAW122

TAW122

Emissary of the right to die.
Aug 30, 2018
6,871
Most of us have probably seen a similar argument that some pro-lifers like to use to deter others from choosing to go out on one's own terms. The argument that they use is "Why CTB [or take matters into one's own hands], when death will come eventually", "there is no rush to death because it will come, just 'enjoy' life", "You only live once!" or any similar weak arguments against CTB.

The reason that these arguments are weak arguments against CTB'ing is that from a pro-choicer's perspective, we (pro-choicers) are simply trying to take matters into our own hands and trying to go out ON OUR OWN TERMS. We don't wish to suffer unnecessarily, especially for sentience that was imposed against our will without our consent. Yes, while it may be true that all living things will eventually expire and die just from natural causes (or other causes of death), many who do end up dying do not get to go peacefully, let alone on their own terms, but for things outside of their control. The main focus point of pro-choicers is to have the inalienable right to determine one's own fate, which includes the ability to go out on one's own terms rather than to be slaves to the system or let nature (or other uncontrollable, unplanned circumstances) take it's course, often in ways that we did not wish to exit.

There is nothing more important than the right to no longer exist and exiting on one's own terms because besides what one attains in life, be it property, titles, intangibles, and other stuff, the only one thing that is most core to oneself, is one's ultimate bodily autonomy. Thus, not being able to even dictate how one goes just ensures that one is a slave to the system and/or the collective others'. Furthermore, there is no greater tyranny than the omnipotent moral busybodies dictating what is best for another. (taken and summarized from C.S. Lewis's quote)

Anyways, I thought I'd take this pro-lifer argument, dissect it, and then expose it for what it is. By being able to control one's own death by going out on one's own terms would guarantee that one does not have to be subjected to unnecessary suffering and unwanted experiences, even if at the cost of prospective fleeting pleasures down the road. The lack of sentience and ability to feel regret once one is dead is a small price to pay for the multitude of years of mundanity and suffering that awaits one, let alone even finding oneself in a situation where one loses all autonomy due to circumstances outside of one's control (ill health, unexpected accidents, and more).
 
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FuneralCry

FuneralCry

Just wanting some peace
Sep 24, 2020
38,857
In my case I'd actually prefer to die at an earlier date to avoid suffering, for me I believe the less time spent trapped in this existence the better. I see nothing appealing about having to suffer for decades in this cruel and futile existence just to be tormented by old age and die anyway but of course only never existing is true perfection to me. I only see non-existence as desirable as it's the permanent absence of all harm and torment, it comforts me to think of not-existing for all eternity.
 
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february in alaska

february in alaska

wandering aimlessly
Sep 13, 2023
465
Exactly. And this argument is so ironic because the exact same sentiment is literally one of the strongest pro-choice talking points out there.

If death is inevitable, why the fuck should people be forced to prolong their suffering? We're all going to end up in the same place no matter how healthy or broken or happy or miserable or wealthy or poor or sick we are.

I don't know if this is the best metaphor, but in my mind it's like going to the world's most overwhelming rave party and forcing people who are drunk, lonely, and exhausted to stay and keep going. Like, for the love of god, let them leave. Let them rest. Just because the party is fun for *you* doesn't mean it's the right scene for everyone
 
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Kamchatki

Kamchatki

I ain't got no home in this world anymore
Sep 11, 2023
9
Exactly. Why should we prolong our suffering if it gets us to the exact same place?
To quote George Eastman's suicide note:
"My Work is done. Why wait?"
 
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Judah

Judah

Nobody remembers me
Oct 1, 2020
1,578
'enjoy' life", "You only live once!"
How canyou enjoy something that ends up tiring and tormenting you in the first place? I definitely hate this argument.
 
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Linda

Linda

Member
Jul 30, 2020
1,685
I agree with that, but it's always useful to have a snappy response to an argument you don't like. Here is one. Their argument is like telling a hungry person that "Food will come eventually, so there is no need to eat right now". Everyone can see the absurdity in that argument. Perhaps someone can come up with an even better fast response.
 
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pthnrdnojvsc

pthnrdnojvsc

Extreme Pain is much worse than people know
Aug 12, 2019
2,735
People forget or don't know how bad extreme suffering extreme pain or extreme torture can be. It's just logical to me why remain alive if any day you can fall into a trap of unending extreme pain or unending extreme suffering? There is no reason to risk such suffering.
 
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ijustwishtodie

ijustwishtodie

death will be my ultimate bliss
Oct 29, 2023
5,168
I think that this argument of theirs can logically be taken the opposite way too. After all, if death is inevitable and it doesn't matter whether we were to live for 5 years or 50 years, then it'd be equally valid to choose to end life early as it would be to prolong it. However, if you use that argument against you, they'll say it's logical despite it using the exact same premises and logic as they did for their argument. Their cognitive dissonance is insane
 
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MyChoiceAlone

MyChoiceAlone

sleep deprived and/or drunk
Jul 23, 2023
1,212
I agree with that, but it's always useful to have a snappy response to an argument you don't like. Here is one. Their argument is like telling a hungry person that "Food will come eventually, so there is no need to eat right now". Everyone can see the absurdity in that argument. Perhaps someone can come up with an even better fast response.
sorry to interrupt. linda, is it ok if i pm you? or you may pm me/
 
SilentSadness

SilentSadness

The rain pours eternally.
Feb 28, 2023
1,123
I agree that's kind of a ridiculous argument to be honest, considering it's pro lifers who forcefully prevent suicide. They don't believe their own words if they're saying that.
 
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D

Deleted member 65988

Guest
Always love your posts especially as in depth as this @TAW122
 
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D

DreamEnd

Enlightened
Aug 4, 2022
1,892
Most of us have probably seen a similar argument that some pro-lifers like to use to deter others from choosing to go out on one's own terms. The argument that they use is "Why CTB [or take matters into one's own hands], when death will come eventually", "there is no rush to death because it will come, just 'enjoy' life", "You only live once!" or any similar weak arguments against CTB.

The reason that these arguments are weak arguments against CTB'ing is that from a pro-choicer's perspective, we (pro-choicers) are simply trying to take matters into our own hands and trying to go out ON OUR OWN TERMS. We don't wish to suffer unnecessarily, especially for sentience that was imposed against our will without our consent. Yes, while it may be true that all living things will eventually expire and die just from natural causes (or other causes of death), many who do end up dying do not get to go peacefully, let alone on their own terms, but for things outside of their control. The main focus point of pro-choicers is to have the inalienable right to determine one's own fate, which includes the ability to go out on one's own terms rather than to be slaves to the system or let nature (or other uncontrollable, unplanned circumstances) take it's course, often in ways that we did not wish to exit.

There is nothing more important than the right to no longer exist and exiting on one's own terms because besides what one attains in life, be it property, titles, intangibles, and other stuff, the only one thing that is most core to oneself, is one's ultimate bodily autonomy. Thus, not being able to even dictate how one goes just ensures that one is a slave to the system and/or the collective others'. Furthermore, there is no greater tyranny than the omnipotent moral busybodies dictating what is best for another. (taken and summarized from C.S. Lewis's quote)

Anyways, I thought I'd take this pro-lifer argument, dissect it, and then expose it for what it is. By being able to control one's own death by going out on one's own terms would guarantee that one does not have to be subjected to unnecessary suffering and unwanted experiences, even if at the cost of prospective fleeting pleasures down the road. The lack of sentience and ability to feel regret once one is dead is a small price to pay for the multitude of years of mundanity and suffering that awaits one, let alone even finding oneself in a situation where one loses all autonomy due to circumstances outside of one's control (ill health, unexpected accidents, and more).
Well if you are perfectly healthy and happy and financially stable and everything in your life is good. I don't see a reason why you would want to ctb because somewhere down the road there is potential for extreme suffering. There is always a risk for it. You can get hit by a car and become a cripple, you can get struck by lightning. But what if none of these things actually happen to you and you will live a good life? I think it's better to wait and see. You can always have the option to ctb down the road if you can't handle, but cutting your life short because there is potential to be hurt later on? I just don't get it and maybe some people would want that and I respect it but I personally don't get it
 
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F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
9,807
I agree with that, but it's always useful to have a snappy response to an argument you don't like. Here is one. Their argument is like telling a hungry person that "Food will come eventually, so there is no need to eat right now". Everyone can see the absurdity in that argument. Perhaps someone can come up with an even better fast response.

To carry on with the food analogy, someone once put this: (I didn't invent this but, I like it)

'If half a slice of bread was covered in green mold and maggots, would you eat the rest of it?'
 
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onbekend

onbekend

Experienced
Jan 14, 2024
266
I don't understand this argument from people. What is the average pro-lifers goal here? There is nothing to enjoy in life, and some of us are terminally ill people who will die painfully and slowly. So why would they keep them alive? Is it because they wanna make a profit off of the sick and suffering? What about those of us who are poor and homeless? Those who have no friends or family or don't want contact? Almost every pro-life argument is so damn inconsiderate.

If you wanna keep living, fine. Go ahead, I don't care. But don't keep me alive because of your selfish desires to continue profiting off of me or using me as a way to benefit your ego. I didn't choose to be born, If I did I would've said fuck no to this shit, so it's only fair that I should be given the right to take myself out of this world on my own terms.
 
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Final_Choice

Final_Choice

Mage
Aug 3, 2023
544
It's a very stupid argument. "Your life is miserable and living is painful so you want to at least find peace and be free from pain? Nah, life is good. You'll die eventually." And we're just supposed to be cured as if empty words suddenly solved all our problems. The whole reason a lot of people want to CTB is to STOP feeling the pain and suffering they have to put up with so it just shows they don't even care/listen to you if they use that argument.
 
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U

uzuf86

Too many mistakes and regrets
Jan 1, 2024
232
By the same logic, why continue life if death is inevitable?
 
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sserafim

sserafim

brighter than the sun, that’s just me
Sep 13, 2023
9,013
How canyou enjoy something that ends up tiring and tormenting you in the first place? I definitely hate this argument.
What if reincarnation is real and the pro-lifers get proven wrong…you only live twice
 
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Judah

Judah

Nobody remembers me
Oct 1, 2020
1,578
What if reincarnation is real and the pro-lifers get proven wrong…you only live twice
2 times? How do you know if this is your first or last time?
 
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sserafim

sserafim

brighter than the sun, that’s just me
Sep 13, 2023
9,013
2 times? How do you know if this is your first or last time?
Lol I just said that as a spin on the saying "you only live once". I heard that people actually live hundreds or thousands of lives
 
H

Hollowman

Empty
Dec 14, 2021
1,355
Well if you are perfectly healthy and happy and financially stable and everything in your life is good. I don't see a reason why you would want to ctb because somewhere down the road there is potential for extreme suffering. There is always a risk for it. You can get hit by a car and become a cripple, you can get struck by lightning. But what if none of these things actually happen to you and you will live a good life? I think it's better to wait and see. You can always have the option to ctb down the road if you can't handle, but cutting your life short because there is potential to be hurt later on? I just don't get it and maybe some people would want that and I respect it but I personally don't get it
You can't always have the option if you end up a quadriplegic.
 
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DreamEnd

Enlightened
Aug 4, 2022
1,892
You can't always have the option if you end up a quadriplegic.
I mean yes you are technically right but if you have an understanding family you will. Also isn't it like 290000 people in the United States have some form of chord injury? Again I agree, the risk is always there. Whether or not life is worth the risk I guess is up to the individual
 
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TAW122

TAW122

Emissary of the right to die.
Aug 30, 2018
6,871
In my case I'd actually prefer to die at an earlier date to avoid suffering, for me I believe the less time spent trapped in this existence the better. I see nothing appealing about having to suffer for decades in this cruel and futile existence just to be tormented by old age and die anyway but of course only never existing is true perfection to me. I only see non-existence as desirable as it's the permanent absence of all harm and torment, it comforts me to think of not-existing for all eternity.
I share the same premise too. Even with a perfect life (which mine isn't at all, or the vast majority of people for the matter), it is still preferred and ideally better to go on one's own terms than to live and gamble for potentially worse suffering or even end up in a predicament far worse than one's current situation.

Exactly. And this argument is so ironic because the exact same sentiment is literally one of the strongest pro-choice talking points out there.

If death is inevitable, why the fuck should people be forced to prolong their suffering? We're all going to end up in the same place no matter how healthy or broken or happy or miserable or wealthy or poor or sick we are.

I don't know if this is the best metaphor, but in my mind it's like going to the world's most overwhelming rave party and forcing people who are drunk, lonely, and exhausted to stay and keep going. Like, for the love of god, let them leave. Let them rest. Just because the party is fun for *you* doesn't mean it's the right scene for everyone
Excellent analogy. Yeah, it's like the pro-lifers (also known as pro-sufferers) like to force people to remain alive just to fulfill their selfish atavistic morals and get off to the off chance to someone might enjoy the party. Much to the detriment of the unwilling partygoers.

How canyou enjoy something that ends up tiring and tormenting you in the first place? I definitely hate this argument.
Same here. I suppose pro-lifers assign (an arbitrary) value to life and that defaults to being positive despite there being no intrinsic, objective value to life itself as far as the universe and nature is concerned... In fact, leaving this tormenting state permanently can be one of the most rational decisions one can make, especially when one decides that the torment is too much for one to bear.

I agree with that, but it's always useful to have a snappy response to an argument you don't like. Here is one. Their argument is like telling a hungry person that "Food will come eventually, so there is no need to eat right now". Everyone can see the absurdity in that argument. Perhaps someone can come up with an even better fast response.
I like your analogy and yes, that makes sense. It's ironic how pro-lifers and most people can see the absurdity in the hungry people argument, but fail (or refuse) to see the absurdity in prolonging and sustaining a life that one deems intolerable.

I think that this argument of theirs can logically be taken the opposite way too. After all, if death is inevitable and it doesn't matter whether we were to live for 5 years or 50 years, then it'd be equally valid to choose to end life early as it would be to prolong it. However, if you use that argument against you, they'll say it's logical despite it using the exact same premises and logic as they did for their argument. Their cognitive dissonance is insane
Excellent observation, and yes, the cognitive dissonance is just crazy and I do believe that most pro-lifers don't really care about the truth (or worse yet, refuse to even acknowledge to accept it) and then instead insists on them being right and refusing to accept or even acknowledge any other perspective. Furthermore, it seems like they even do anything to avoid having to have their beliefs shattered or contradicted by reality, but that is for another thread/topic altogether.

Well if you are perfectly healthy and happy and financially stable and everything in your life is good. I don't see a reason why you would want to ctb because somewhere down the road there is potential for extreme suffering. There is always a risk for it. You can get hit by a car and become a cripple, you can get struck by lightning. But what if none of these things actually happen to you and you will live a good life? I think it's better to wait and see. You can always have the option to ctb down the road if you can't handle, but cutting your life short because there is potential to be hurt later on? I just don't get it and maybe some people would want that and I respect it but I personally don't get it
I don't really agree with your claim here. It seems to be based on subjective criteria, partly overlaps on some generalization of what a good life is from a pro-lifers' point of view. Also, I'm not speaking for nor talking about myself, but more like a general mindset and philosophy that pro-choicers have. Furthermore, I presented this thread mostly to pick apart a pro-life argument that I've seen in the past and wish to dissect and debunk it, hoping that others can see how flawed it is. I do appreciate that you respect my decision if/when I choose to CTB in the future.

I don't understand this argument from people. What is the average pro-lifers goal here? There is nothing to enjoy in life, and some of us are terminally ill people who will die painfully and slowly. So why would they keep them alive? Is it because they wanna make a profit off of the sick and suffering? What about those of us who are poor and homeless? Those who have no friends or family or don't want contact? Almost every pro-life argument is so damn inconsiderate.

If you wanna keep living, fine. Go ahead, I don't care. But don't keep me alive because of your selfish desires to continue profiting off of me or using me as a way to benefit your ego. I didn't choose to be born, If I did I would've said fuck no to this shit, so it's only fair that I should be given the right to take myself out of this world on my own terms.
Absolutely, I agree with you. I think the pro-lifers' goal is to validate their atavistic morals, by force and violence (CTB prevention, especially involuntarily and/or involving the authorities) if they deem necessary. Also, yes, it seems like a lot of institutions and systems (including healthcare, judicial/legal system, financial system, and more) all seek to benefit from one being alive, hence they would do just about everything to keep someone alive for their gains. In the end, yes almost all pro-life arguments are just selfish, inconsiderate, and even nefarious for themselves because it doesn't benefit the pro-choicer and only serves the interests of others and the collective group (society).

It's a very stupid argument. "Your life is miserable and living is painful so you want to at least find peace and be free from pain? Nah, life is good. You'll die eventually." And we're just supposed to be cured as if empty words suddenly solved all our problems. The whole reason a lot of people want to CTB is to STOP feeling the pain and suffering they have to put up with so it just shows they don't even care/listen to you if they use that argument.
Yeah, most pro-lifers are just echo-boxes of empty platitudes and most of them don't even think or care enough to want change. They just want their views validated and ego satiated, even at the expense of others who don't share their views. It's all about control and imposition of the collective will against dissidents.

I mean yes you are technically right but if you have an understanding family you will. Also isn't it like 290000 people in the United States have some form of chord injury? Again I agree, the risk is always there. Whether or not life is worth the risk I guess is up to the individual
Yeah that would be true, and I believe if I found myself in that situation, I would yearn for death, but failing to get death, I'd try to make my captors and sentience holders lives shitty (not necessarily out of spite, but out of desperation and with nothing to lose), but I digress.
 
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divinemistress36

divinemistress36

Illuminated
Jan 1, 2024
3,266
Lol I just said that as a spin on the saying "you only live once". I heard that people actually live hundreds or thousands of lives
I've heard that to and some lives are good and some are bad
 
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xmissellax

xmissellax

Need My Peace
Feb 25, 2024
113
@TAW122 This is such a well written post thank you thank you for this. This resonates with me so much and ultimately I feel my wanting to CTB is trying to hold on to a last piece of control / choice for myself in a world that has me feeling completely out of control of everything, and that scares the shit out of me. You put into words how I feel so eloquently. Thanks!
 
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Meteora

Ignorance is bliss
Jun 27, 2023
2,007
It is people who don't know what it means to suffer and fight from morning til evening, people who don't understand how long a year can be or even just a day.
And eventually people who are not very empathetic.
 
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