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Lucilius

Student
Feb 15, 2021
130
Is all of this really all that reasonable? Here is some passage from Roman philosopher Seneca.

You need not think that none but great men have had the strength to burst the bonds of human servitude; (...) Nay, men of the meanest lot in life have by a mighty impulse escaped to safety, and when they were not allowed to die at their own convenience, or to suit themselves in their choice of the instruments of death, they have snatched up whatever was lying ready to hand, and by sheer strength have turned objects which were by nature harmless into weapons of their own. For example, there was lately in a training-school for wild-beast gladiators a German, who was making ready for the morning exhibition; he withdrew in order to relieve himself, – the only thing which he was allowed to do in secret and without the presence of a guard. While so engaged, he seized the stick of wood, tipped with a sponge, which was devoted to the vilest uses, and stuffed it, just as it was, down his throat; thus he blocked up his windpipe, and choked the breath from his body. That was truly to insult death! Yes, indeed; it was not a very elegant or becoming way to die; but what is more foolish than to be over-nice about dying? What a brave fellow! He surely deserved to be allowed to choose his fate! How bravely he would have wielded a sword! With what courage he would have hurled himself into the depths of the sea, or down a precipice! Cut off from resources on every hand, he yet found a way to furnish himself with death, and with a weapon for death. Hence you can understand that nothing but the will need postpone death. Let each man judge the deed of this most zealous fellow as he likes, provided we agree on this point, – that the foulest death is preferable to the fairest slavery.

(...)Lately a gladiator, who had been sent forth to the morning exhibition, was being conveyed in a cart along with the other prisoners; nodding as if he were heavy with sleep, he let his head fall over so far that it was caught in the spokes; then he kept his body in position long enough to break his neck by the revolution of the wheel. So he made his escape by means of the very wagon which was carrying him to his punishment.

When a man desires to burst forth and take his departure, nothing stands in his way. It is an open space in which Nature guards us. When our plight is such as to permit it, we may look about us for an easy exit. If you have many opportunities ready to hand, by means of which you may liberate yourself, you may make a selection and think over the best way of gaining freedom; but if a chance is hard to find, instead of the best, snatch the next best, even though it be something unheard of, something new. If you do not lack the courage, you will not lack the cleverness, to die.. See how even the lowest class of slave, when suffering goads him on, is aroused and discovers a way to deceive even the most watchful guards! He is truly great who not only has given himself the order to die, but has also found the means.

I have promised you, however, some more illustrations drawn from the same games. During the second event in a sham sea-fight one of the barbarians sank deep into his own throat a spear which had been given him for use against his foe. "Why, oh why," he said, "have I not long ago escaped from all this torture and all this mockery? Why should I be armed and yet wait for death to come?" This exhibition was all the more striking because of the lesson men learn from it that dying is more honourable than killing.

(...) It is reason which teaches us that fate has various ways of approach, but the same end, and that it makes no difference at what point the inevitable event begins. Reason, too, advises us to die, if we may, according to our taste; if this cannot be, she advises us to die according to our ability, and to seize upon whatever means shall offer itself for doing violence to ourselves. It is criminal to "live by robbery"; but, on the other hand, it is most noble to "die by robbery." Farewell.
 
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D

Dayrain

Arcanist
Feb 3, 2023
444
Is all of this really all that reasonable? Here is some passage from Roman philosopher Seneca.
From which work is this excerpt, please?
 
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socrates

socrates

I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.
Dec 3, 2019
299
I understand the idea here, and I broadly agree with "that the foulest death is preferable to the fairest slavery." but I'm a coward. Plus so many methods like overdosing on OTC drugs or killing yourself with a toilet brush are unreliable and are more likely to make life worse.
 
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Lucilius

Student
Feb 15, 2021
130
I understand the idea here, and I broadly agree with "that the foulest death is preferable to the fairest slavery." but I'm a coward. Plus so many methods like overdosing on OTC drugs or killing yourself with a toilet brush are unreliable and are more likely to make life worse.
After the n-th thread of someone who took the salts and spent an half a night semi-conscious and the remainder unconscious only to wake up the next day I wouldn't say that reliability is really the focus of most of these discussions. Virginia Woolf CTBed using only a long coat weighted with stones and a not particularly impressive course of water. Why can't we be just as resolute? Why do we always have to think the goal is beyond our current means?
 
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loopdaloop

-
Apr 16, 2023
323
It's a really interesting thread ngl, thanks for sharing. I do agree with the core idea, but it does seem to be a bit tainted by the availability heuristic. Just because one person was able to willfully CTB with a certian painful method doesn't mean all people who want to die can push through the physical pain and not chicken out during the process of dying. Wanting to avoid physical pain to me is the same as wanting the method to not activate SI, and successfully catch the bus without risk of failure and permanent damage.
 
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jorheslen428

Member
May 4, 2023
90
Why would I go for a painful death when I have the resources to obtain a peaceful one? It's human nature to avoid pain
 
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Lucilius

Student
Feb 15, 2021
130
Why would I go for a painful death when I have the resources to obtain a peaceful one? It's human nature to avoid pain
Because probably you don't actually have the resources or they could be taken away from you at any moment. Assuming the resources in question are as good as what they made them to be. And because one shouldn't have to rely on others for things such as these.
 
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Praestat_Mori

Mori praestat, quam haec pati!
May 21, 2023
11,533
That's the point, when there is no other resource available and one wants CTB now, then I guess you can overcome SI and the additional pain to escape an even worse situation.

But as long as there is a choice most people would choose the least painful method.
 
SilentSadness

SilentSadness

The rain pours eternally.
Feb 28, 2023
1,126
Unfortunately this is all just a fantasy, in reality the available methods are brutal and unreliable. There's no point attempting one of the methods you've mentioned, because we're not gladiators and it won't work. I think it's insensitive to be forced to use one of the horrific methods, it's torture.
 
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Lucilius

Student
Feb 15, 2021
130
I just want to swim into the sea until I sink. Is that "horrific"? Torture? Frankly I find having to humiliate myself looking for a dealer of whatever chemical is on fashion in this website and then die in some sad room in shame and fear of someone interrupting me or finding me still alive the next day way more horrific and demeaning. Fear, shame and a sense of not being able to endure anything are ultimately the real torture: being a slave even in death.
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
9,862
I think you have to be utterly desperate to go for such violent means. I suspect most of us aren't prisoners of war or gladiators or slaves. Our situations may feel awful but maybe not as imminantly dangerous as any of the above.

I'll put the question to you- Why are you browsing a suicide forum? Presumably for methods I imagine. Presumably peaceful and reliable methods? That seems to be what brings most people here. I imagine you can probably answer your own question- Why are any of us here rather than getting on with CTB by any means possible?

Perhaps we have become more gentrified as a race. We don't readily accept it that we should be in pain- we've been taught that we can avoid pain. In the above examples- those poor people had a very bleak choice. If you knew you might be fed to a lion tomorrow in the gladiators ring- maybe ANY other kind of death would seem more preferable.

There ARE some poor folk here who likely are in chronic pain every day- in which case- that level of desperation is probably there. It's just then- whether they would have the strength for any of these violent methods. Brutal, violent deaths sometimes need strength and agility. Plus- in this safety conscious world- some of the most dangerous places and means to CTB from are cordoned off.
 
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Lucilius

Student
Feb 15, 2021
130
As a matter of fact, I shouldn't be browsing a suicide forum. I should be swimming every time a little further, cutting myself every time a little deeper. Losing the fear of physical pain. Learning to laugh at it all, learning to be free. And then just do it.

In any case violence is not exactly the issue here. Would you consider starving yourself and then getting lost into the woods to die of hypothermia "violent"?
 
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LaVieEnRose

LaVieEnRose

Angelic
Jul 23, 2022
4,250
You're not the first person to suggest that if life is so painful that we want to end it, then physical pain shouldn't be a deterrent. Even if that is true in theory, in practice it ends up being very different.

Also many of us feel that if our leaves were full of pain then we at least deserve painless exits. But in reality if our lives were painful then there is sadly no reason that our deaths wouldn't be either.

You're right that there is a certain unavoidable dignity in the way we have to carry out suicide regardless of the actual painfulness of the method. I try not to think about it because it won't ultimately matter.
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,914
I understand the idea here, and I broadly agree with "that the foulest death is preferable to the fairest slavery." but I'm a coward. Plus so many methods like overdosing on OTC drugs or killing yourself with a toilet brush are unreliable and are more likely to make life worse.
Particularly killing yourself with a toilet brush. I read that Seneca "simply" slit his wrists in a bathtub. That, still, is simple compared with the heroic (?) feat of choking on a toilet brush.
 
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locked*n*loaded

locked*n*loaded

Archangel
Apr 15, 2022
7,258
My thought process on this is that I've had enough emotional pain already in my life, so I deserve, at the very least, a painless exit, or as near to a painless exit, as I can get.
 
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GasMonkey

GasMonkey

Nitrogen Master Race
May 15, 2022
1,881
Because probably you don't actually have the resources or they could be taken away from you at any moment.
I have the resources and they can't be taken away from me.​

in reality the available methods are brutal and unreliable
This is COMPLETELY FALSE. You have posted this bullshit a lot of times already in the forum. I have to recommend you not to make such bold statements when in reality you have no idea what you are talking about, I bet you haven't even read the PPeH. I have called you out on this BS several times and you keep posting this "tHerE aRE nO rELiaBLe meTHoDs" crap again and again, that's exactly what an infiltrated pro-lifer would post here.​
 
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NambaSutra

Student
Mar 25, 2023
190
In ancient Rome they would not have had modern hospitals and doctors. Things were deadly then which are easily fixed by a doctor today.
 
Message In A Bottle

Message In A Bottle

📜 Just me, myself, and I
Apr 1, 2022
363
I'd read it, but the text blends in to much with the sites background color.
 
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Lucilius

Student
Feb 15, 2021
130
I'd read it, but the text blends in to much with the sites background color.
Wait, so there is a dark mode and only black text is color-switched? I'll try to fix it l, but anyways I posted a link to the full text below.
 
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Message In A Bottle

Message In A Bottle

📜 Just me, myself, and I
Apr 1, 2022
363
Wait, so there is a dark mode and only black text is color-switched? I'll try to fix it l, but anyways I posted a link to the full text below.
In settings, there are various modes you can choose from. The one I'm using is dark mode 2022, which turns the text white with a black background.

But that works too; I'll just read it there.
 

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