Venting The folly of natalism

[Alchemist]

I was reading this news that made my anger boil. (It's in Spanish, but maybe google translate can help).

This 17yo guy hung himself after being unable to find a stable job. Obviously he didn't even had his basic education completed and whatever job he could find would not be enough to cover expenses. Quite an usual situation for usual situation for many of us here.

What really angers me is the sorry state of his family. The family has 16 members and 9 of them live in the same house, including their 18yo daughter, her husband and their 3 children.

This is why I say that breeding is the most twisted and evil thing a person can do. To doom someone to suffering and death, specially knowing their lives will be hard, is something only a sadistic being can think, because even animals stop reproducing when resources are scarse.

I'm sickened by humans and specially those who bring the curse of life to others. Someone once told me that breeding is like a russian roulette where 5 chambers are filled with bullets of suffering and the chance to be happy is very slim, but those holding the gun don't care because is not aimed at them, but to someone who will be forced to suffer this existance because of someone else's lack of foresight.

“¡Mamá, mi hermano está colgado!”

Suicidio de joven afectó la situación de la familia Rojas; Tere y Mary buscan acabar estudios para “vivir mejor”

www.eluniversal.com.mx

 

[Wayfaerer]

I wouldn't blame natalism for that atrocity but rather Catholicism.

 

[Alchemist]

I wouldn't blame natalism for that atrocity but rather Catholicism.

Catholicism is one of the many forms of natalism. Many religions are natalist because that's gow they get more sheep.

 

[Baskol1]

Catholicism is one of the many forms of natalism. Many religions are natalist because that's gow they get more sheep.

Catholicism and islam are probably the most natalist religions. And of course someone without basic education has it extremely hard to find any job, these parents are idiots.

 

[Jean Améry]

Bringing a child into this world is in effect condemning him or her to a variable amount of pain and the certainty of death. That by itself is immoral given that the choice was made without consent of the human being born or having been born. Especially in a society that seems hell-bent on making suicide as hard, painful and ugly as possible.

In short you were brought into this world without your permission and you can only leave when your body breaks down on its own (old age) or through some form of illness, accident or violence.

It's strange that hurting another human-being let alone killing him or allowing him to die is generally considered the epitome of evil yet procreation is seen as a completely laudable thing which actually should be a cause for celebration. Go figure.

You're quite right: procreation in general is immoral but doing it while you know perfectly well you won't be able to give that child everything it needs to do reasonably well in life is pure evil. This goes for both material and immaterial things: if you're so fucked up mentally you can't properly raise the child and love it unconditionally obviously you should never subject another human-being who'll completely depend on you to your moral defects.

I deplore poverty and I'm not blaming people for being poor but why on earth do people reproduce when they can't even take care of themselves properly?

 

[Baskol1]

Bringing a child into this world is in effect condemning him or her to a variable amount of pain and the certainty of death. That by itself is immoral given that the choice was made without consent of the human being born or having been born. Especially in a society that seems hell-bent on making suicide as hard, painful and ugly as possible.

In short you were brought into this world without your permission and you can only leave when your body breaks down on its own (old age) or through some form of illness, accident or violence.

It's strange that hurting another human-being let alone killing him or allowing him to die is generally considered the epitome of evil yet procreation is seen as a completely laudable thing which actually should be a cause for celebration. Go figure.

You're quite right: procreation in general is immoral but doing it while you know perfectly well you won't be able to give that child everything it needs to do reasonably well in life is pure evil. This goes for both material and immaterial things: if you're so fucked up mentally you can't properly raise the child and love it unconditionally obviously you should never subject another human-being who'll completely depend on you to your moral defects.

I deplore poverty and I'm not blaming people for being poor but why on earth do people reproduce when they can't even take care of themselves properly?

And then they wonder why their kids are dying so young.

 

[Mr2005]

I would say stop blaming the world for your problems. 18 year old with a husband and three kids? Jesus you lot grow up fast. If that's what you're used to then it's going to taint your view. People who shouldn't have them and can't look after them seem to have the most and that's a problem but the alternative is no one has them and we all just die out? What good is that? Why would you care about resources then?

 

[Baskol1]

I would say stop blaming the world for your problems. 18 year old with a husband and three kids? Jesus you lot grow up fast. If that's what you're used to then it's going to taint your view. People who shouldn't have them and can't look after them seem to have the most and that's a problem but the alternative is no one has them and we all just die out? What good is that? Why would you care about resources then?

Exactly, no existence, no problems.

 

[Mr2005]

Meh that sucks. It's a miracle it exists in the first place

 

[Baskol1]

Meh that sucks. It's a miracle it exists in the first place

No life is not a miracle, its explainable why life exists, no god, no magic.

 

[Mr2005]

I disagree. Maybe you really think that but for a lot of people it's just easier to deal with than the knowledge they had one shot and screwed it up. That's the case with me but because I ruined my life all life should end for all those who haven't? That's the most selfish and pathetic thing I've ever heard

 

[Baskol1]

I disagree. Maybe you really think that but for a lot of people it's just easier to deal with than the knowledge they had one shot and screwed it up. That's the case with me but because I ruined my life all life should end for all those who haven't? That's the most selfish and pathetic thing I've ever heard

You dont understand, we dont say humanity should be exterminated, but that having children leads to suffering.

 

[Mr2005]

Well it's one or the other. No life, no suffering. No joy either, no nothing. It's a glass half full situation. For plenty the good outweighs the bad.

 

[Baskol1]

Well it's one or the other. No life, no suffering. No joy either, no nothing. It's a glass half full situation. For plenty the good outweighs the bad.

Does it tough? I dont think so, its a sort of delusional optimism which is a survival mechanism.

 

[Alchemist]

Well it's one or the other. No life, no suffering. No joy either, no nothing. It's a glass half full situation. For plenty the good outweighs the bad.

Not at all. I'll quote Meretlein since she said it better.

"The presence of pain is always bad and the absence of pain is always good but the absence of pleasure is only bad if there is someone able to feel deprived of it."

 

[Mr2005]

Ok I get your point. In the end people will believe what they want to.

 

[Jean Améry]

People who shouldn't have them and can't look after them seem to have the most and that's a problem but the alternative is no one has them and we all just die out? What good is that?

The only alternative to preventing those who can't support children having them is not the end of the human race as others would still be free to procreate. Any activity that can produce harm to others is regulated except procreation. Why would having to prove you can actually support and care for children be any different than say taking a test to obtain a driver's license?

What good is human extinction? That seems rather obvious: no more human suffering nor death. Plus the end of our species is pretty much inevitable anyway so what does it matter whether that's sooner or later? More than 99% of species on this planet have already died out so chances are very high sooner or later we'll go the same way. Nothing lasts forever. Plus the universe is an extremely inhospitable place so it stands to reason that sooner or later something external is going to wipe us out. Or we'll simply do it ourselves and not through antinatalism. During the Cold War we already came close to our own destruction as a species.

 

[Mr2005]

With that mindset you'd think nothing mattered yet people are still so easily triggered. When I said people believe what they want I didn't just mean the ones who say life is good. That quote was good but what mood was she in when she wrote it? Just after a bad break up? Point is if we were getting on with our lives we wouldn't be discussing the scientific realities of the universe

 

[Robbyna]

I don't think life has to be awful. I think that many people are dissatisfied with the institutions of power. I would be curious to know the general satisfaction of communities that still live primitive and tribally. While they don't have the amenities they do have community, tradition and a close bond with the natural world. Maybe simplicity is the key to happiness? I used to think that there must have been a lot of fear being at the constant mercy of the elements, but maybe it's liberating and inspiring? Maybe science has driven us all mad? It has certainly destroyed our home. Perhaps we need a good apocalypse and restart. I can only do my part and end my own life. I keep hoping that when we die there's something afterwards that makes it all make sense.

 

[woxihuanni]

I don't think life has to be awful. I think that many people are dissatisfied with the institutions of power. I would be curious to know the general satisfaction of communities that still live primitive and tribally. While they don't have the amenities they do have community, tradition and a close bond with the natural world. Maybe simplicity is the key to happiness? I used to think that there must have been a lot of fear being at the constant mercy of the elements, but maybe it's liberating and inspiring? Maybe science has driven us all mad? It has certainly destroyed our home. Perhaps we need a good apocalypse and restart. I can only do my part and end my own life. I keep hoping that when we die there's something afterwards that makes it all make sense.

Ask a ten year Himba girl being dragged by the arm by her parents to get raped and knocked up by some freak as everybody cheers them on. It's called a wedding. There is only a tiny part of the world where a child can possibly enjoy having been born, if they have good parents with good resources.

As if institutions of power came out of nowhere. Humans are basically faulty machinery at one another's mercy.

 

[Robbyna]

Ask a ten year Himba girl being dragged by the arm by her parents to get raped and knocked up by some freak as everybody cheers them on. It's called a wedding. There is only a tiny part of the world where a child can possibly enjoy having been born, if they have good parents with good resources.

As if institutions of power came out of nowhere. Humans are basically faulty machinery at one another's mercy.

Not every primitive culture practices child rape. I don't know if that was implied, but I just wanted to point that out. There are undoubtedly a higher number of children raped in more populated modern cultures though maybe/maybe not a higher percentage. We don't have a moral high ground there. We don't have a moral high ground anywhere really. I don't think it takes as much resources as are currently used to to enjoy life. I don't have the answer to everything, but it's a certainty that if we consumed less we would have a healthier planet.

 

[woxihuanni]

Not every primitive culture practices child rape. I don't know if that was implied, but I just wanted to point that out. There are undoubtedly a higher number of children raped in more populated modern cultures though maybe/maybe not a higher percentage. We don't have a moral high ground there. We don't have a moral high ground anywhere really. I don't think it takes as much resources as are currently used to to enjoy life. I don't have the answer to everything, but it's a certainty that if we consumed less we would have a healthier planet.

You are replying to non-existent claims, though. The example I gave simply shows that power play and abuse can exist in tribal societies just as well as industrialised ones.

 

[Painted Bird]

Smart people don't breed at all or have 1, 2, maybe 3 kids after getting proper education, jobs, etc. to fully support them. It's uneducated morons who mindlessly breed like crazy. 18 years-old mother of 3 is a very good example. And she probably won't stop at 3 kids, it's quite unlikely. She will keep bringing more miserable humans to this world and they'll also become poor for life because their parents can't provide for them, secure their education, etc. It's a vicious circle.

 

[Jean Améry]

Smart people don't breed at all or have 1, 2, maybe 3 kids after getting proper education, jobs, etc. to fully support them. It's uneducated morons who mindlessly breed like crazy. 18 years-old mother of 3 is a very good example. And she probably won't stop at 3 kids, it's quite unlikely. She will keep bringing more miserable humans to this world and they'll also become poor for life because their parents can't provide for them, secure their education, etc. It's a vicious circle.

Quite right. I'm afraid those who are least capable of properly raising children have the most of them. Anyone with half a brain knows it's fairly impossible to divide one's time over more than 3 children while working full-time and taking care of business.

 

[Robbyna]

You are replying to non-existent claims, though. The example I gave simply shows that power play and abuse can exist in tribal societies just as well as industrialised ones.

Certainly I never said that there couldn't be abused power in those cultures I only asked if the simplicity of their lives might lead to greater feelings of contentment. In the modern world the institutions that make decisions that effect our daily lives are not inclined to simplicity and I wonder if that may be a component to the unhappiness that plagues us despite the comparative abundance of resources we enjoy. I don't know if they are any happier, but I do know they have less of a negative impact on the environment and experience less social isolation, which are two sources of great unhappiness for many in the modern world. I guess if you perceive the way they live to not be a choice and only a consequence of failing to progress then it's not possible to see any merit to their social structure and in that case your example bares more weight in dismissing my question. But I don't automatically dismiss the possibility that there are some cultures that do not consider the simplicity they live in to be a form of poverty and make a conscious effort to consume less. This might be naive, but it can't be denied that these cultures have less of a negative impact and are at the very least free from any feelings of guilt or anxiety about how their daily behaviors effect the environment.

 

[woxihuanni]

Certainly I never said that there couldn't be abused power in those cultures I only asked if the simplicity of their lives might lead to greater feelings of contentment. In the modern world the institutions that make decisions that effect our daily lives are not inclined to simplicity and I wonder if that may be a component to the unhappiness that plagues us despite the comparative abundance of resources we enjoy. I don't know if they are any happier, but I do know they have less of a negative impact on the environment and experience less social isolation, which are two sources of great unhappiness for many in the modern world. I guess if you perceive the way they live to not be a choice and only a consequence of failing to progress then it's not possible to see any merit to their social structure and in that case your example bares more weight in dismissing my question. But I don't automatically dismiss the possibility that there are some cultures that do not consider the simplicity they live in to be a form of poverty and make a conscious effort to consume less. This might be naive, but it can't be denied that these cultures have less of a negative impact and are at the very least free from any feelings of guilt or anxiety about how their daily behaviors effect the environment.

I don't know. I suppose for a lot of people, our impact on the environment is not what immediately drives them to risk brain damage, etc. by offing themselves. For my part, I have a tiny footprint as these things go and do not feel very guilty. However, the thought of not having access to the global inheritence of literature, music, science feels exactly like being buried alive. If, with my current psyche, I found myself in an isolated tribe, I suppose I would go insane immediely.

Even though I do not have religion, the very vague possibility, not even possibility but the idea, of reincarnation terrifies me. If I were to be born in even worse circumstances as far as my needs go, dying would have been the worst choice.

 

[Wayfaerer]

I'm not an antinatalist but people who shit out kids only to neglect them ought to be sterilized.

 

[Robbyna]

I don't know. I suppose for a lot of people, our impact on the environment is not what immediately drives them to risk brain damage, etc. by offing themselves. For my part, I have a tiny footprint as these things go and do not feel very guilty. However, the thought of not having access to the global inheritence of literature, music, science feels exactly like being buried alive. If, with my current psyche, I found myself in an isolated tribe, I suppose I would go insane immediely.

Even though I do not have religion, the very vague possibility, not even possibility but the idea, of reincarnation terrifies me. If I were to be born in even worse circumstances as far as my needs go, dying would have been the worst choice.

There's no reason that consuming less requires no access to the global inheritance of knowledge. At least some of the argument of anti-natalists is that happy lives require a great amount of resources, and resources being finite there should be less or no new births. I'm only suggesting that what is adequate for happiness may not be as much as we believe it to be, and adjusting that might be the key to more fulfilling lives. It's definitely the key to humanities longevity on the planet. If you believe that the human condition is irredeemably cruel then none of that matters. But I don't believe that.

 

[Alchemist]

I'm not an antinatalist but people who shit out kids only to neglect them ought to be sterilized.

I just saw another perfect example of that while having lunch. A couple discussing how they couldn't afford 75 cent quesadillas while having 3 kids in tow.

 

[woxihuanni]

There's no reason that consuming less requires no access to the global inheritance of knowledge. At least some of the argument of anti-natalists is that happy lives require a great amount of resources, and resources being finite there should be less or no new births. I'm only suggesting that what is adequate for happiness may not be as much as we believe it to be, and adjusting that might be the key to more fulfilling lives. It's definitely the key to humanities longevity on the planet. If you believe that the human condition is irredeemably cruel then none of that matters. But I don't believe that.

I thought we were talking about a naked-in-the-forest sort of society vs Italy or something. Sure, you can have technology and access to knowledge, but not consume resources recklessly. Personally, I am a minimalist and guilt-free about how much I consume. As for kids, it is cruel to have them without inadequate resources, financial, emotional, etc.