Venting The Final Nail In God’s Coffin

[GideonVandaleur]

It's no secret that I've spent a ridiculous portion of my life focused on trying to sort this religion and God thing out and I think I've reached the point of saturation a short while ago, perhaps its been a few months. I've just lost interest in the over complicated topic and by engaging in any further discussion just serves to muddy the waters and detract from the simple, succinct statements of the predicament we find ourselves in as living, conscious beings on this planet in this relatively quiet, nebulous neighborhood of the universe. Before we get to that statement let's review the setup. God creates man, god places a forbidden tree of knowledge, Man falls, Jesus sacrifice saves, People still die but some of the supposedly good ones will go back to heaven. Now the official statement Exactly why would you trust god not to kick humanity out again for another stupid reason? How are you going to protect your perfect ascension from the next fall? A real god would never use this gambling setup, A real god would get this universe right on the first try because that is the only way a perfect being could possibly be considered ethical.

 

[km0990]

Now this is the preaching and "Good News" I have been waiting for!

 

[SuicidallyCurious]

It's 2022 and there are still people who believe

Without one shred of evidence for their belief in almost every major civilization across the globe the religious types dominate our lives and institutions

Just another reason to CTB

 

[chocolatebar]

It's 2022 and there are still people who believe

Without one shred of evidence for their belief in almost every major civilization across the globe the religious types dominate our lives and institutions

Just another reason to CTB

Even if religions die, the belief mechanism still live in humans and they will grab anything in their way. Even science becomes a stage for putting beliefs at play. There are a lot of people out there who attribute something special to the fact that we're the result of billions of years of evolution, as if it gives us some special meaning (the cockroach staring at me from the closed window right now is the result of billions of years of evolution as well and it can enjoy its special meaning as long as it doesn't come inside). Some people also say some things like that we're special in the cosmos or something. There's even some famous scientist out there who say things like "we're star dust in the most exalted way". The need to put ourselves in some special place and find some meaning lives in us, even if we abandon religions.

 

[braindead911]

Can't put a nail in the coffin of something that never existed

 

[Pluto]

There are many other religions, creation myths and Gods than that of fundamentalist Christianity. Most historical societies had their own. But some of the big ones tend to erase all competition via war, which apparently is the key to winning theological debates. All involve trying to overlay a story to bring special meaning to life. But the resulting Gods always say more about those who invent them than offering any substantive explanations of the cosmos.

 

[km0990]

Found a loophole for "God":
Genesis 9:11 "Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood;"

Says nothing about fire, poison, or any other way, just not water lol
Also. it says all life. so I guess 99.9% of life could be destroyed by flood.

 

[sfabians]

Have you read the Quran? What about other eastern religions?

 

[GideonVandaleur]

I did comparative religion for awhile so I've over dosed on bullshit stories. I've also grown weary of conversing with religious folks of all flavors because they always reveal their lack of ability to competently think outside of the narrow box they've constructed for themselves to live in like some sort of philosophical hobo.

 

[Someone123]

It's no secret that I've spent a ridiculous portion of my life focused on trying to sort this religion and God thing out and I think I've reached the point of saturation a short while ago, perhaps its been a few months. I've just lost interest in the over complicated topic and by engaging in any further discussion just serves to muddy the waters and detract from the simple, succinct statements of the predicament we find ourselves in as living, conscious beings on this planet in this relatively quiet, nebulous neighborhood of the universe. Before we get to that statement let's review the setup. God creates man, god places a forbidden tree of knowledge, Man falls, Jesus sacrifice saves, People still die but some of the supposedly good ones will go back to heaven. Now the official statement Exactly why would you trust god not to kick humanity out again for another stupid reason? How are you going to protect your perfect ascension from the next fall? A real god would never use this gambling setup, A real god would get this universe right on the first try because that is the only way a perfect being could possibly be considered ethical.

One thing to consider is that there certainly could be a god who is not related to Christianity, which answers some of this. One consideration is that God could possibly be extremely powerful but not all powerful- God might be able to create the universe and govern it to some extent, but it may not be possible for god to control every little thing. Near5 death experiences seem to p[oint to the existence of a caring god, in my opinion, but then the question- if god created everything, where did god come from- this is difficult to answer. If another being created god, then where did that being come from? There are definitely questions with no easy answers.

 

[everhopeless]

It's no secret that I've spent a ridiculous portion of my life focused on trying to sort this religion and God thing out and I think I've reached the point of saturation a short while ago, perhaps its been a few months. I've just lost interest in the over complicated topic and by engaging in any further discussion just serves to muddy the waters and detract from the simple, succinct statements of the predicament we find ourselves in as living, conscious beings on this planet in this relatively quiet, nebulous neighborhood of the universe. Before we get to that statement let's review the setup. God creates man, god places a forbidden tree of knowledge, Man falls, Jesus sacrifice saves, People still die but some of the supposedly good ones will go back to heaven. Now the official statement Exactly why would you trust god not to kick humanity out again for another stupid reason? How are you going to protect your perfect ascension from the next fall? A real god would never use this gambling setup, A real god would get this universe right on the first try because that is the only way a perfect being could possibly be considered ethical.

The scenarios you're describing come from the Bible, a lot of which is allegorical. People tell stories to try to make sense of their reality. A god who punishes bad behavior and rewards good behavior is a lot easier to live with than a capricious god who just likes to mess with people. We create god in our image like a person who has moods and motivations, but I believe Divine Love is a force we can embrace or exist. I believe Jesus died to show us that we don't have to fear death, so we can truly live. I say this as an ordained Christian minister and as someone who wishes they were dead a lot of the time, so take it for what it's worth…
Embrace or RESIST - sorry

 

[GideonVandaleur]

One thing to consider is that there certainly could be a god who is not related to Christianity, which answers some of this. One consideration is that God could possibly be extremely powerful but not all powerful- God might be able to create the universe and govern it to some extent, but it may not be possible for god to control every little thing. Near5 death experiences seem to p[oint to the existence of a caring god, in my opinion, but then the question- if god created everything, where did god come from- this is difficult to answer. If another being created god, then where did that being come from? There are definitely questions with no easy answers.

What you're referring to is called infinite regression fallacy and I have solved that one rather indirectly with an OG argument that I might describe to you if you're that keenly interested. Near death experiences might seem like some sort of evidence to the uninitiated but I must point out that it's all anecdotal heresy which is the lowest form of evidence. Near death experience can be better explained by neuroscience. NDE's and the phenomena of life flashing before one's eyes upon death are a consequence of the amygdala and hypothalamus dumping it's memory content as the brain is malfunctioning while shutting down. It's a bit more complicated than that but I don't have time nor breath to explain the intricacies of the feedback loop circuit mechanism involved with how consciousness emerges. You're gonna have to do that research yourself from credible sources. Also If god can't control everything then by definition that is not god, but lets say that one can exist that can't control everything. Then god at that point is incompetent, unethical, and unworthy of being called a god. It's far scarier to imaging that a god like that exists than it is to simply think that the results we see in the universe are because a god doesn't exist.

 

[sfabians]

I did comparative religion for awhile so I've over dosed on bullshit stories. I've also grown weary of conversing with religious folks of all flavors because they always reveal their lack of ability to competently think outside of the narrow box they've constructed for themselves to live in like some sort of philosophical hobo.

I think you also read about how Hinduism believes that we currently live the Kali Yuga age, and when Kalki arrives we will transition to the age of Satya Yuga.
Kali Yuga is believed to be the present age, which is full of conflict and sin.

 

[GideonVandaleur]

The scenarios you're describing come from the Bible, a lot of which is allegorical. People tell stories to try to make sense of their reality. A god who punishes bad behavior and rewards good behavior is a lot easier to live with than a capricious god who just likes to mess with people. We create god in our image like a person who has moods and motivations, but I believe Divine Love is a force we can embrace or exist. I believe Jesus died to show us that we don't have to fear death, so we can truly live. I say this as an ordained Christian minister and as someone who wishes they were dead a lot of the time, so take it for what it's worth…
Embrace or RESIST - sorry

You're exactly the type that I'm exhausted from after decades of chit chat. I have crushed variations of that same facile argument time and time again. The term Divine is meaningless and needs to be expunged from the dictionary and love is not a force. Love is not even an emotion. Love is a promise that you will never hurt someone under your care. God by definition isn't a force for divine love considering how much pain he's inflicted upon humanity starting with the fall over bullshit petty reasons.

I think you also read about how Hinduism believes that we currently live the Kali Yuga age, and when Kalki arrives we will transition to the age of Satya Yuga.
Kali Yuga is believed to be the present age, which is full of conflict and sin.

Yes I'm aware of that nonsense and it is nonsense because there is no age that isn't rife with conflict. It's coming at things from an angle that denotes they don't really understand the source from which conflict arises out of the framework and context of a given environment.

 

[everhopeless]

You're exactly the type that I'm exhausted from after decades of chit chat. I have crushed variations of that same facile argument time and time again. The term Divine is meaningless and needs to be expunged from the dictionary and love is not a force. Love is not even an emotion. Love is a promise that you will never hurt someone under your care. God by definition isn't a force for divine love considering how much pain he's inflicted upon humanity starting with the fall over bullshit petty reasons.

Yes I'm aware of that nonsense and it is nonsense because there is no age that isn't rife with conflict. It's coming at things from an angle that denotes they don't really understand the source from which conflict arises out of the framework and context of a given environment.

Love is not an emotion - it's an action

 

[Someone123]

Near death experiences might seem like some sort of evidence to the uninitiated but I must point out that it's all anecdotal heresy which is the lowest form of evidence. Near death experience can be better explained by neuroscience

It is common in near death experiences for people to float outside their body and to see things that they couldn't have seen any other way, and neuroscience cannot explain this. Also people sometimes get messages from the other side that match thiings here that really cannot be explained in any other way.

Also If god can't control everything then by definition that is not god, but lets say that one can exist that can't control everything. Then god at that point is incompetent, unethical, and unworthy of being called a god. It's far scarier to imaging that a god like that exists than it is to simply think that the results we see in the universe are because a god doesn't exist.

A god that can't control everything can still be called a god. Let's say a god creates a universe and also creates various lifeforms to populate it- these arer godlike tasks for sure. BUt then when he puts these beings into the universe and they have free will and god cannot control every little thing they do. This is a reasonable possibility. Thjis is till a god becaise he created the universe and everythnig in it, though since part of the universe is free will god cannot control everything in it. This is not incompetent or unethical if beings by their nature have free will. A person can reasonably argue that it would be much more unethical to control a being's actions in every way and to not let them have free will.

 

[GideonVandaleur]

Love is not an emotion - it's an action

First you said it was a divine force now you're changing it to action? Fine I'll play your dumb game. So what if it's an action? By that logic hate is an action and from the way god has treated humanity both by his actions that have caused immense suffering and his inaction at preventing it speaks volumes about how unloving and unworthy your god is of worship.

It is common in near death experiences for people to float outside their body and to see things that they couldn't have seen any other way, and neuroscience cannot explain this. Also people sometimes get messages from the other side that match thiings here that reallyh cannot be explained in any other way.

A god that can't control everything can still be called a god. Let's say a god creates a universe and also creates various lifeforms to populate it- these arer godlike tasks for sure. BUt then when he puts these beings into the universe and they have free will and god cannot control every little thing they do. This is a reasonable possibility. Thjis is till a god becaise he created the universe and everythnig in it, though since part of the universe is free will god cannot control everything in it. This is not incompetent or unethical if beings by their nature have free will. A person can reasonably argue that it would be much more unethical to control a being's actions in every way and to not let them have free will.

When you dream do you not exist inside of the dream outside your body sometimes? People have because the brain can imagine things vividly. When you're dying and that part of the brain malfunctions you're essentially dreaming the out of body experience. The same happens during anesthesia just like sleep, the brain incorporates stimuli from the surrounding environment into the dream. This explains near death experiences scientifically and neurologically. So you're entirely wrong in your view, sorry. Also, I'm sick of the freewill argument cropping up everywhere. None of you seem to know what you're talking about. There is such a thing as a will but it is not free, it is constrained by environmental possibilities. This is supported by neuroscientific research as well. Please go educate yourselves. I don't care if god's intervention violates free will, we are all being violated one way or another because we did not consent to being born. The world as it stands is already unethical and if we are going to be violated anyway; I would prefer to live in a universe with a guarantee that it's impossible for anyone to be harmed whether that violates free will or not and whether that breaks your particular brand of ethics or not. That's still a better deal and it's not outside the realm of possibility since god has promised people such a place as heaven after they die. Are you saying heaven is unethical because there's no free will in heaven? Don't be absurd!

 

[MellowAvenue]

would get this universe right on the first try because that is the only way a perfect being could possibly be considered ethical.

That works on the assumption that a God has to be perfect and ethical but not all Gods worshipped throughout history fit this description, the Greek Gods being a good example. Religion exists to explain things and the Greek pantheon in particular was also designed in such a way to explain the flaws of humanity. Is it not possible for flawed God(s) to exist that are very powerful but still have to learn like we do, make mistakes like we do, occasionally make emotionally charged decisions like we do, and die like we do? Personally I do not believe Gods exists but should they exist, I think this is more likely than Biblical and similar interpretations.

Found a loophole for "God":
Genesis 9:11 "Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood;"

Says nothing about fire, poison, or any other way, just not water lol
Also. it says all life. so I guess 99.9% of life could be destroyed by flood.

The Bible does make a lot of allusions to it being Fire next time God decides to fuck us up again. Obviously hasn't happened yet but could happen anytime, any day, any year, any second…

 

[km0990]

"Is it not possible for flawed God(s) to exist that are very powerful but still have to learn like we do, make mistakes like we do, occasionally make emotionally charged decisions like we do, and die like we do?"

I like this. It's kind of like the high school boy thinking the girl is so perfect, but really does have flaws. People do the same with "God", when the concept of God has flaws as well.

 

[sfabians]

Also, in Christianity there are allusions to our world being a "farm" or a "field".
I guess when we reach a certain population or when the field becomes mature, they will come to harvest us.

 

[Sakura94]

It's weird I never had this issue. I always knew we were biological beings. I spent my life focused on the fact I am an ugly bitch and won't ever be really a woman.
Metaphysical quandaries have never bothered me like at all. I guess the consciousness thing made me think for a while but in the end it's just another "Universe go brr" answer. I suppose I was never indoctrinated young though that might cause it.

 

[Superdeterminist]

It comes down to the impossibility of free will. If god created all things, then he has to be responsible for all decisions made in all brains. There is no avoiding this (but theists still try anyway...) Adam's decision to eat from the tree is actually god's doing, so god just punishes Adam for a decision that god ordained...this makes no sense, the logic of the story fails at this early point.

 

[Someone123]

It comes down to the impossibility of free will. If god created all things, then he has to be responsible for all decisions made in all brains. There is no avoiding this (but theists still try anyway...) Adam's decision to eat from the tree is actually god's doing, so god just punishes Adam for a decision that god ordained...this makes no sense, the logic of the story fails at this early point.

I do think that GOd can create creatures that have free will so that a person's choices are their own- god doesn 't deserve the bloame for everything that goes wrong if living beings have free will.

 

[Superdeterminist]

I do think that GOd can create creatures that have free will so that a person's choices are their own- god doesn 't deserve the bloame for everything that goes wrong if living beings have free will.

It doesn't make sense. Brains are systems that operate according to certain laws, like any other system in the universe. These laws were decided by god, presumably, otherwise they are laws not decided by god, but then we have phenomena which transcend god. You can make the claim that god didn't decree all the laws of how the universe unfolds, but then you're demoting god from a supposed creator of all known things, to a lower position.

 

[GideonVandaleur]

Also, in Christianity there are allusions to our world being a "farm" or a "field".
I guess when we reach a certain population or when the field becomes mature, they will come to harvest us.

They stole that from the Egyptian field of reeds.

 

[Someone123]

It doesn't make sense. Brains are systems that operate according to certain laws, like any other system in the universe. These laws were decided by god, presumably, otherwise they are laws not decided by god, but then we have phenomena which transcend god. You can make the claim that god didn't decree all the laws of how the universe unfolds, but then you're demoting god from a supposed creator of all known things, to a lower position.

If God can create anything God can create living beings that have free will- beings who are responsible for their own choices.

 

[GideonVandaleur]

If God can create anything God can create living beings that have free will- beings who are responsible for their own choices.

Except it has already been scientifically demonstrated that will is not free if it is constrained by a set of stimuli given by a limited environment which reduce the choices that one has by default.

That works on the assumption that a God has to be perfect and ethical but not all Gods worshipped throughout history fit this description, the Greek Gods being a good example. Religion exists to explain things and the Greek pantheon in particular was also designed in such a way to explain the flaws of humanity. Is it not possible for flawed God(s) to exist that are very powerful but still have to learn like we do, make mistakes like we do, occasionally make emotionally charged decisions like we do, and die like we do? Personally I do not believe Gods exists but should they exist, I think this is more likely than Biblical and similar interpretations.



The Bible does make a lot of allusions to it being Fire next time God decides to fuck us up again. Obviously hasn't happened yet but could happen anytime, any day, any year, any second…

I get that because gods are made up in the image of flawed humans but monotheism insists that gods characteristics are all powerful, all knowing, perfect being so that's where I take issue.

 

[Superdeterminist]

If God can create anything God can create living beings that have free will- beings who are responsible for their own choices.

You can call them "responsible", but that's like saying a malfunctioning watch is responsible for its malfunction, rather than the human who built it. It's actually worse than that, because god, unlike humans, decided the laws of when and how systems can fail, while humans didn't. You're pointing the accusatory finger at something other than the true cause.

 

[everhopeless]

First you said it was a divine force now you're changing it to action? Fine I'll play your dumb game. So what if it's an action? By that logic hate is an action and from the way god has treated humanity both by his actions that have caused immense suffering and his inaction at preventing it speaks volumes about how unloving and unworthy your god is of worship.

When you dream do you not exist inside of the dream outside your body sometimes? People have because the brain can imagine things vividly. When you're dying and that part of the brain malfunctions you're essentially dreaming the out of body experience. The same happens during anesthesia just like sleep, the brain incorporates stimuli from the surrounding environment into the dream. This explains near death experiences scientifically and neurologically. So you're entirely wrong in your view, sorry. Also, I'm sick of the freewill argument cropping up everywhere. None of you seem to know what you're talking about. There is such a thing as a will but it is not free, it is constrained by environmental possibilities. This is supported by neuroscientific research as well. Please go educate yourselves. I don't care if god's intervention violates free will, we are all being violated one way or another because we did not consent to being born. The world as it stands is already unethical and if we are going to be violated anyway; I would prefer to live in a universe with a guarantee that it's impossible for anyone to be harmed whether that violates free will or not and whether that breaks your particular brand of ethics or not. That's still a better deal and it's not outside the realm of possibility since god has promised people such a place as heaven after they die. Are you saying heaven is unethical because there's no free will in heaven? Don't be absurd!

1. I believe that love is a force in the universe. In humans, love is action or it has no purpose.
2. The absence of divine love is nothing, not hatred (read your Tillich).
3. God isn't male - that's just more anthropomorphizing.
4. Neither you nor anyone else knows if "God" has done any of the things you ascribe to Divine agency.
5. When someone disagrees with you, that doesn't mean you're right and they're wrong.
6. Calling someone's sincere reflection on the nature of the Holy a "dumb game" is not acting in good faith. I mistakenly assumed that you were seeking respectful dialogue.
7. There is a human hunger for the Sacred that has existed since the dawn of consciousness and will never go away. To imagine that what humans can understand/invent/create is the sun total of what's going on in our infinite universe is hubris. There will always be Mystery, thanks be to God, and it is in the Mystery that the Sacred is found.
8. Heaven is a story people tell others to manipulate them and tell themselves to cope with the existential dread of ceasing to exist.

 

[GideonVandaleur]

1. I believe that love is a force in the universe. In humans, love is action or it has no purpose.
2. The absence of divine love is nothing, not hatred (read your Tillich).
3. God isn't male - that's just more anthropomorphizing.
4. Neither you nor anyone else knows if "God" has done any of the things you ascribe to Divine agency.
5. When someone disagrees with you, that doesn't mean you're right and they're wrong.
6. Calling someone's sincere reflection on the nature of the Holy a "dumb game" is not acting in good faith. I mistakenly assumed that you were seeking respectful dialogue.
7. There is a human hunger for the Sacred that has existed since the dawn of consciousness and will never go away. To imagine that what humans can understand/invent/create is the sun total of what's going on in our infinite universe is hubris. There will always be Mystery, thanks be to God, and it is in the Mystery that the Sacred is found.
8. Heaven is a story people tell others to manipulate them and tell themselves to cope with the existential dread of ceasing to exist.

1. Your belief doesn't mean that it's true or applies to reality. Last time I checked according to physics love is not a force. So your point is rejected and objectively speaking wrong.
2. Nature abhors a vacuum in the absence of love hate or something else will fill the void left behind.
3. I know that, god can't be male, female. or they if god doesn't actually exist.
4. Yes I can because I have eyes and have observed the world around me. God isn't preventing the starvation of children in africa and did not prevent Covid therefore a god who has the ability to intervene but chooses not to is the definition of evil. God is not an innocent bystander.
5. It does mean I'm right because my arguments can be verified by observing and testing it reality, none of your claims can ever be observed nor tested so you're objectively wrong.
6. I call it a dumb game because I've played this very same game with many times with many people like you and I'm beyond tired of it. You're not original and not interesting.
7. No you and people like you hunger for the sacred, don't assume that I or anyone else hunger for it. The word sacred isn't even in an atheists dictionary. And the mystery of consciousness has a much better chance of being accurately described and understood by neuroscience but you refuse to read scientific literature because you're obsessed with your religious narrative lens.
8. Not everyone dreads ceasing to exist many crave oblivion.