Discussion The church vs suicide

[your pathologist]

But if are basically on an endless loop of reincarnation then who where the first humans or life forms to be created? Who created them?

They were god
Also god
God created himself
Children of god -brain explodes-

 

[GeorgeJL]

That's what I've read.

The Bible teaches that heaven is wonderful and life on earth is pretty pointless. Plus some of the Christians might have been afraid of an even more torturous death at the hands of the Romans.

Augustine is supposed to have been one of the first Christians to take a stance against suicide.

If I lived back then I would have created a death cult and everyone would commit suicide on christmas. LOL Just kidding. I'd probably commit suicide like Socrates with hemlock. I hear it's suppose to be relatively painless.

 

[Centerism]

Ooh that burns even more.
An entity you're asking for help and it just stares down like... "this is your destiny, it is my will for you". No encouragement or false hope. No promises or judgement. Just observation and disconnection.
At that point, God is only a creator.
I think people have it twisted in religion.
Or maybe they have it right and thats why hes such a meanie

It stings doesn't it? Lol
That it's how most protestant faiths look at it. The belief that our destiny is set in stone. We were given free will by God. Or so it's said. But, how can we have the will to choose when God asks us to do his will. Our better yet, how do we have free will when God has already mapped our lives out for us. Are we just on a path of suffering because our creator has decided "this one suffers, and this one joins a cult, and these people over here will end up in hell." Then wipes his hands clean of all of it. How big of a person to say what we can or will become, even for a god.

They were god
Also god
God created himself
Children of god -brain explodes-

Hell ya! *pop*

 

[Jean Améry]

As far as I'm concerned any religion that claims to have knowledge of the supernatural amounts to intellectual conmanship. Those who are naïve enough to believe in such nonsense needlessly torture themselves with pointless, meaningless questions such as 'what does god think of suicide?'. Asking what the church thinks of it is even sillier: why would a bunch of decriped old men that either molested children themselves or protected those who molested them have any moral authority at all?

That being said I'm inclined to look at this with a legal mindset. What is the highest authority concerning doctrine and morals in christianity? The bible. Does the bible condemn suicide? No it does not. Case closed. Whatever Augustine (a man well trained in rhetoric who defended his own viewpoints much like a lawyer would defend a client in court) conjured up is irrelevant aslong as it's not backed up by biblical authority.

Christianity was pretty much ok with suicide in the form of martyrdom and quite a few sects joyously threw themselves off cliffs in order to get to heaven sooner yet at a certain point the so called 'church fathers' realized losing too many believers would not serve them well in seizing power. Hence the suicide prohibition made up by Augustine.

Even assuming god exists and the bible is his divine word it still does not follow that suicide is forbidden.

In law everything that isn't expressly forbidden is allowed (principle of legality). You'd think that an all-knowing being would be able to communicate whatever displeased him in no uncertain, crystal clear terms. Nowhere does it say something to the extent of 'thou shalt not kill thyself', 'do not slay thyself' or something to that nature. Not one suicide mentioned in either the old or new testament is spoken of in dissaproving terms, not one. Not even the self-inflicted death of Judas Ischariot, the arch-traitor in christian mythology.

"Judas threw the silver pieces into the temple and left. Then he went and hanged himself." (Matthew 27:5)

 

[Centerism]

But if we are basically on an endless loop of reincarnation then who where the first humans or life forms to be created? Who created them?

We weren't created. Essentially, in my eyes and in sciences eyes, we have been reincarnated time and time again since time began. Or did it ever begin? The universe is said to be older than any measuring instrument can measure. So we came from the universe, were planted here on earth, evolved over billions of years, now were here. And the existence of life will live on again and again long after the earth ceases to be.

Maybe that'll plant a seed in your head lol

 

[ish]

[QUOTE = "GeorgeJL, post: 405361, członek: 6252"]
"Nie zabijaj" to tłumaczenie brakujące. Oryginał jest tak naprawdę nie zabójstwem. Biblia nigdy tak naprawdę nie potępia samobójstwa, o którym wiem. Judasz się nie liczy, ponieważ zdradził Jezusa. Więc tak.
[/ZACYTOWAĆ]


Judasz był także ofiarą, nie wiemy, czy działał tak dobrowolnie, czy był zapraszany (zachęcany) czy zmanipulowany?
Może to być także rodzaj (ofiarnego) paktu.

 

[Darkhaven]

The whole punishment scene after Adam and Eve ate that godsforsaken apple always seemed kind of an overreact from God to me.
I mean he creates a new species and puts the tree in the middle of the garden where they lived and warns them not to eat from it.
Satan, taking advantage of their naivety, tempts them to eat the apple. And they fell for it.
But what kind of understanding did they have of disobeying and of its consequences in order to receive such a scolding from God?
I, mean they were basically children next to God. They were a still young species in this world.
If a kid breaks something or hurts someone it can't be held accountable of its crimes, because it still can't have a proper understanding of good and bad.
Same thing applies to that couple. Did they really know what they were doing? And did they deserve to be kicked out of Eden and become mortal and a subject to disease, death and wickedness? I think not. God was too harsh. What is amazing is that we are still paying the tool today. We still die, suffer, get sick, have hunger, war....

#Edit: they actually only got the ability of distinguishing good from bad after they ate the apple so they were more like children then we know. If we were able to time travell and talk with them before they ate from the tree and told them that it's okay for us to slap each other when someone fucks up something, they would probably believe it.
Doesn't that make God an insensible and horrible creature, for being so harsh with his children, that were just recently created?

 

[your pathologist]

It stings doesn't it? Lol
That it's how most protestant faiths look at it. The belief that our destiny is set in stone. We were given free will by God. Or so it's said. But, how can we have the will to choose when God asks us to do his will. Our better yet, how do we have free will when God has already mapped our lives out for us. Are we just on a path of suffering because our creator has decided "this one suffers, and this one joins a cult, and these people over here will end up in hell." Then wipes his hands clean of all of it. How big of a person to say what we can or will become, even for a god.

Hell ya! *pop*

This reminds me of my Philosophy classes
God it omniscient, meaning he knows all, he sees every path. All of it. Meaning that he already knows what you will do with your free will. Which all seems counter productive doesnt it? If the end goal is to send you to heaven or hell, and he already knows whats gunna happen to you, isnt that just redundant?
Also. He's omnipotent. Meaning he can just do whatever he wants whenever he wants. This also brings up the moral implications of what god chooses not to do. What he is "seemingly alright with".
This thought process makes you question the morality of god himself, whether he is just or unjust. But who have we based our morals off of for thousands of years? The 'gods'.
How much sense does it make that an unjust or benevolent yet uninvolved god may decide where we end up, or subject us to his Atonement anyhow

The whole punishment scene after Adam and Eve ate that godsforsaken apple always seemed kind of an overreact from God to me.
I mean he creates a new species and puts the tree in the middle of thw garden where they lived and warns them not to eat from it.
Satan taking advantage of their naivety tempts them to eat the apple. And they fell for it.
But what kind of understanding did they have of disobeying and of its consequences in order to receive such an scolding from God?
I, mean they were basically children next to God. They were a still young species in this world.
If a kid breaks someone or hurts someone it can't be held accountable of its crimes, because it still can't have a proper understanding of good and bad.
Same thing applies to that couple. Did they really know what they were doing? And did they deserve to be kicked out of Eden and become mortal and a subject to disease, death and wickedness? I think not. God was too harsh. What is amazing is that we are still paying the tool today. We still die, suffer, get sick, have hunger, war....

The more its explained and rationalized the more god sounds like a drunk dad come home pissed from work or a shotty boogeyman story designed to curb excessive stupidity and stress for the governing masses...
Oh wait

 

[Centerism]

The whole punishment scene after Adam and Eve ate that godsforsaken apple always seemed kind of an overreact from God to me.
I mean he creates a new species and puts the tree in the middle of the garden where they lived and warns them not to eat from it.
Satan, taking advantage of their naivety, tempts them to eat the apple. And they fell for it.
But what kind of understanding did they have of disobeying and of its consequences in order to receive such a scolding from God?
I, mean they were basically children next to God. They were a still young species in this world.
If a kid breaks something or hurts someone it can't be held accountable of its crimes, because it still can't have a proper understanding of good and bad.
Same thing applies to that couple. Did they really know what they were doing? And did they deserve to be kicked out of Eden and become mortal and a subject to disease, death and wickedness? I think not. God was too harsh. What is amazing is that we are still paying the tool today. We still die, suffer, get sick, have hunger, war....

#Edit: they actually only got the ability of distinguishing good from bad after they ate the apple so they were more like children then we know. If we were able to time travell and talk with them before they ate from the tree and told them that it's okay for us to slap each other when someone fucks up something, they would probably believe it.
Doesn't that make God an insensible and horrible creature, for being so harsh with his children, that were just recently created?

I tend to agree with you. God might have played that whole situation out a little bit too harshly. You bring up a good point. Were Adam and eve honestly aware of the consequences they were to receive if they disobeyed God? I mean were any of gods first children really aware of hell or Satan? We Are aware that God sent Lucifer, then an angel, down to earth. Where he made his domain in hell. Was that explained, or witnessed by Adam or eve? I mean were they made aware of the consequences but it just doesn't tell us in the bible? There's many what ifs.

The idea of Satan being in the actual garden of Eden isn't a new idea. In fact in early interpretations of the bible we're made aware of a third person being in Eden. Lilith. She was said to be many things cause it never stated who she was. But the best interpretation and most popular theory is she was Satan incarnate. So we know, for a fact, that if Eden did exist, Satan was most certainly there. We know why he tricked them, we know why they ate the fruit, we know the consequences, but do we know the whole story? Genesis is a vaguely written book. Especially when it comes to how earth came to be. So should we believe it? I mean honestly the bible was written by man. In order for it to be any sort of reliable, man would have had to witness it. Correct? How did somebody witness the creation of earth? How did somebody witness the garden of Eden? I mean of course there's theories. Like God spoke to man and relayed the events. So if God talks to us today what do we call it? Schizophrenia.

The bible is chock full of mistakes. All of which can be interpreted many ways. The honest part about the bible is that there is no part which can't be skewed to fit ones beliefs. I mean there's a verse that says "upon my hands have I engraved your names." That was said by Jesus. People today say that means Jesus had tattoos. And many say that tattoos are a form of defiling ones temple, or body and therefore a sin. So does that verse mean Jesus had tattoos? And that it's now ok to have tattoos? It's up to you.

You're right though. Adam and eve were very much like children. They knew not of what the consequences were. To think that today most protestant faiths will tell you a child is born innocent and cannot be condemned to hell. They also say that we're all born sinners. Think of that, born innocent but are sinners from birth? Yaaaa, but anyhow. If Adam and eve knew no better, just as a child is innocent, so shouldn't they have been as well? It's a great argument.

Thanks for your insight. I love the points you made.

This reminds me of my Philosophy classes
God it omniscient, meaning he knows all, he sees every path. All of it. Meaning that he already knows what you will do with your free will. Which all seems counter productive doesnt it? If the end goal is to send you to heaven or hell, and he already knows whats gunna happen to you, isnt that just redundant?
Also. He's omnipotent. Meaning he can just do whatever he wants whenever he wants. This also brings up the moral implications of what god chooses not to do. What he is "seemingly alright with".
This thought process makes you question the morality of god himself, whether he is just or unjust. But who have we based our morals off of for thousands of years? The 'gods'.
How much sense does it make that an unjust or benevolent yet uninvolved god may decide where we end up, or subject us to his Atonement anyhow

It's completely counterproductive to say "I am creating a species who will be my children. But I'm telling you now, being my children or not, I'm gonna send some of them to hell." What? I would never condemn my own children, even if they did grow to be killers. Wtf? How is it productive to create something, knowing it will fail, but just go ahead and create it anyway. If we were like that we wouldn't be where we are today. I mean look at us for example. We are all, or mostly all, suicidal. We take time to study, perfect and complete our methods. If we set out to fail sometimes, we would simply just go ahead and act knowing there's a 95% fail rate.

In the essence that God is morally corrupt we discover his high authority. Isn't it just easy to abuse authority? I mean if God is omnipotent, then he is just plain lax in his responsibilities. We don't dare question God because we fear his powerful hand. Honestly though, when we do dare to judge him, it feels good doesn't it. Is this how he feels when he plays cat and mouse with our eternity? One might venture to say yes. So what is he alright with? Is he airtight with making us suffer so bad that we end up taking our own lives? And then sending us to hell because of it? Really? Does that make any sense Christianity?

Shit man. God help us all. ;)

 

[Wayfaerer]

The Church became anti-suicide because so many Christians were committing suicide that there were doubts the church would survive.

That's hysterical!