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Superdeterminist

Superdeterminist

Enlightened
Apr 5, 2020
1,875
YES, I'm terrified of possibly returning here to suffer all over again. Specifically, I worry about returning as a farm animal that lives a miserable, brutal, and tortured existence. But really, all things conscious inevitably suffer, so no matter how lucky I would be, there's a promise of some minimum of suffering.
 
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muffin222

muffin222

Enlightened
Mar 31, 2020
1,187
Yes. That's the only thing that's kept me here this long
 
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M

MariV

Arcanist
Sep 13, 2020
487
Yes. That's the only thing that's kept me here this long
but you and we all are going to die anyway or? or do you think these kind of horrors are related to the way of dying namely self inflicted?
 
S

Spitfire

Enlightened
Apr 26, 2020
1,273
I'm going to sign a living will to make sure if I'm on life support or locked in my body like these people in the video they just pull the plug. That is the definition of cruelty.

You have to make sure to get a power of attorney, a person to back you up on this when you no longer have any say in the matter, just in case.

If a person is a non-rescusitate and they are in a position where any of the close family members may be making decisions for them against their own will, it could happen... I have seen it because to treat is a different animal than to provide life saving measures.

Other people could override what it is that you would be wishing for yourself when in certain circumstances.

For example, feeding tubes could be considered treatments. A doctor will not want to be sued, and in some situations they may end up listening to other people who are still wanting you to be alive, even with a living will stating your wishes. If they let you die, you will not be able to sue them, but the living people who may still want you to be alive can sue a doctor who does not provide 'treatment', and they may listen to them.

I wanted to share a story about something that happened once;

A man was brought in and we began the process of rapid sequence intubation straight away. Nobody knew he had a do not resuscitate order. It was not available information at the time when he initially arrived. His wife showed up during all of this, and let everyone know he had a do not resuscitate order, and that he would not want what we were doing.

We did not get too far because she got there quick, but 'treatments' had begun. The intubation tube was already down, and he was being placed on a ventilator.

What do you do in that situation? What would happen if she had not shown up, or things had progressed further in the treatment stage for his condition after already having been intubated? The possibilities existed for his treatment to continue depending on what it was the closest family member, or power of attorney would say...

We disconnected him from the ventilator machine. The tube stayed in his throat. The wife got back to the bedside. I sat in a chair at the head of his bed with an ambu bag. I pumped the bag to breath for him for an hour (probably more like a half hour.. it was a long time ago), as he died while we withdrew other life saving 'treatment's. We could not let him suffocate while on the paralytics.

I know it was extenuating circumstances. This type of thing happens a lot more often than one would think though.
 
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E

esse_est_percipi

Enlightened
Jul 14, 2020
1,747
Since you believe there is nothing after death you also believe there was nothing before birth, right? If yes then since nothing has became something why can't also something (this life) become another something (reincarnation, heaven-hell, customize reality, etc)?
this is a good point.

And if nothing (before birth) became something, then when you die and presumably return to nothingness, what's stopping this 'nothing' becoming something again? Reincarnation follows exactly the same logic as the idea that there was nothing before birth yet this still gave rise to a conscious being.
Imagine having to live this:



Isnt it extremely hardcore?

I dont know of this kind of topic belongs here. if not, sorry.ill delete it. but i think the fear of death we often discuss can be due to these ideas.

hi OP. I'm not sure why you've put a video of people who are trapped in their own bodies?
The title of the post was about reincarnation, so I'm not sure about the connection here?
It seems to be a bit of a bait and switch.
 
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Secrets1

Secrets1

Specialist
Nov 18, 2019
375
YES, I'm terrified of possibly returning here to suffer all over again. Specifically, I worry about returning as a farm animal that lives a miserable, brutal, and tortured existence. But really, all things conscious inevitably suffer, so no matter how lucky I would be, there's a promise of some minimum of suffering.

For real! Here's to staying out of the farm animal pool...
 
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M

MariV

Arcanist
Sep 13, 2020
487
The title of the post was about reincarnation, so I'm not sure about the connection here?
It seems to be a bit of a bait and switch.
well just an example of how different human lives can be. how easy and how hard.thats it. i feel enormous respect for these people
 
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R

rt1989526

Paragon
Aug 2, 2020
935
You have to make sure to get a power of attorney, a person to back you up on this when you no longer have any say in the matter, just in case.

If a person is a non-rescusitate and they are in a position where any of the close family members may be making decisions for them against their own will, it could happen... I have seen it because to treat is a different animal than to provide life saving measures.

Other people could override what it is that you would be wishing for yourself when in certain circumstances.

For example, feeding tubes could be considered treatments. A doctor will not want to be sued, and in some situations they may end up listening to other people who are still wanting you to be alive, even with a living will stating your wishes. If they let you die, you will not be able to sue them, but the living people who may still want you to be alive can sue a doctor who does not provide 'treatment', and they may listen to them.

I wanted to share a story about something that happened once;

A man was brought in and we began the process of rapid sequence intubation straight away. Nobody knew he had a do not resuscitate order. It was not available information at the time when he initially arrived. His wife showed up during all of this, and let everyone know he had a do not resuscitate order, and that he would not want what we were doing.

We did not get too far because she got there quick, but 'treatments' had begun. The intubation tube was already down, and he was being placed on a ventilator.

What do you do in that situation? What would happen if she had not shown up, or things had progressed further in the treatment stage for his condition after already having been intubated? The possibilities existed for his treatment to continue depending on what it was the closest family member, or power of attorney would say...

We disconnected him from the ventilator machine. The tube stayed in his throat. The wife got back to the bedside. I sat in a chair at the head of his bed with an ambu bag. I pumped the bag to breath for him for an hour (probably more like a half hour.. it was a long time ago), as he died while we withdrew other life saving 'treatment's. We could not let him suffocate while on the paralytics.

I know it was extenuating circumstances. This type of thing happens a lot more often than one would think though.

Thanks for your input. I find that confusing. If there's a legal document establishing my wishes, how could someone alive override them? Fuck this stupid world. :eh:
 
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S

Spitfire

Enlightened
Apr 26, 2020
1,273
My mother was dying of ovarian cancer in hospice and they wanted to put a feeding tube in her because she wouldn't eat. A feeding tube into a dying woman.... who could not eat, because her body was shutting down. I stopped them.

They tortured her night and day for a month before finally letting her go into hospice and even then wanted to continue.

It is ridiculous!

I have crushed an old frail dying persons ribcage with my own hands way too many times, because of some other family member who loves them too much!

Or, maybe it was because more checks and money would stop coming in after the person dies, and so they needed to still be alive?

I dont know what it is?
 
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MariV

Arcanist
Sep 13, 2020
487
My mother was dying of ovarian cancer in hospice and they wanted to put a feeding tube in her because she wouldn't eat. A feeding tube into a dying woman.... who could not eat, because her body was shutting down. I stopped them.

They tortured her night and day for a month before finally letting her go into hospice and even then wanted to continue.
inhuman. cant believe this happens.sorry for you both. at least ot was one month and not years. thx goodness
 
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E

esse_est_percipi

Enlightened
Jul 14, 2020
1,747
we are just chemical brain connections and nothing else, there is nothing after death luckily
I'm not sure consciousness can be reduced to simply chemical brain connections.
It could be much more fundamental and go much deeper than that.
The pribram-bohm hypothesis is something to be considered.

Consciousness could in fact tunnel back into a transcendent flux (frequency) domain found below the planck length (1.6 x 10-35 metres, that's 0.000000000000000000000000000000000016 meters, and an atom is 0.0000000001 meters, just for comparison), that's the smallest distance about which current experimentally corroborated models of physics can make meaningful statements. But Bohm reasoned that the planck length is still an arbitrary stopping point in terms of limiting reality, a result of technical limitations to go even deeper, not a result of reality stopping altogether.
The planck limit of 10-33cm he took to be a kind of event horizon, beyond which space and time have no meaning, but which may still constitute a threshold for a wholly other reality which is not discrete or made of particles, but characterized by frequencies and waves outside spacetime (or rather, 'inside' spacetime, yet beyond its lowest limits.)

Imagine shrinking an area of space between two points, a and b. Keep dividing the distance until you get to the smallest distance possible (which quantum theory tells us there is, contrary to the cartesian order which says that space is indefinitely continuous and infinitely divisible), which results in a 'point' in spacetime (the planck length). That point is the entrance to a metaphysical rabbit hole which bohm called the holosphere. There are potentially infinitely many such points which reflect yet also project the totality of the universe.

The lower-dimensional boundary which is thought to encode the information of the known universe on the holographic model theory in physics could be equivalent to these numerous sub-quantum bohmian event horizons. The universe is a holograph, but it's being projected by consciousness points from the inside out. The key to unraveling the mystery of consciousness is to be found at the same level at which the universe itself is ontologically grounded on the holographic model. This is also consistent with certain observer or consciousness-centered theories of quantum measurement.

If the universe is a hologram projected from the mathematical information found on a lower-dimensional boundary, and the boundary is made up of informational units on planck-length space-points, then what is found beyond that boundary would be non-physical, since whatever produced the discrete information would have to transcend (i.e. be smaller than) planck length. It would also have to be itself non-discrete, analog and continuous. This could be a realm where consciousness is just a fundamental reality.

In

So consciousness might be primary, or at least ontologically co-equal with spacetime and matter which become a holographic projection, an unfolding of the implicate nonlocal order, mediated by a fourier transform in a two-way process bohm called a 'holomovement'. The brain and all its neurons and chemicals and connections may in fact be a mapping out of a below-planck-length consciousness-reality, which in turn is causally related to the spacetime electrochemical energy of a brain in a kind of metaphysical feedback loop.
So the death of the brain wouldn't be the death of consciousness, but it would be a termination of that particular spacetime focal-point of consciousness.

Consciousness would continue undifferentiated in the implicate order until another possibility for its manifestation in the spacetime of some universe arises according to some unknown metaphysical law or principles.

Okay, it may not be a proven theory, and may never be proven experimentally, but the pribram–bohm composite holoflux theory is consistent with established principles of physics, maths, and electrical engineering.
Could also be a load of nonsense though.

But just to say that consciousness is really still a mystery, and saying consciousness is simply material brain processes doesn't explain much considering that we still don't really know what 'matter' is or what it can really do, fundamentally.
 
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K

KiraLittleOwl

Lost in transition
Jan 25, 2019
1,083
This is my fear number one. I don't want to come back to this fucked up place. I don't like human nature.
 
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Meditation guide

Meditation guide

Always was, is, and always shall be.
Jun 22, 2020
6,082
inhuman. cant believe this happens.sorry for you both. at least ot was one month and not years. thx goodness
It is the only time I ever saw her cry. She lost her mind begging them to stop.
 
muffin222

muffin222

Enlightened
Mar 31, 2020
1,187
but you and we all are going to die anyway or? or do you think these kind of horrors are related to the way of dying namely self inflicted?

I have a fear that if I commit suicide before my "time" that I'll be reincarnated into another lifetime to finish off whatever lessons I didn't learn in this lifetime. The idea of being born again and restarting life is unbearable to me
 
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Meditation guide

Meditation guide

Always was, is, and always shall be.
Jun 22, 2020
6,082
The idea of being born again and restarting life is unbearable to me
Yes it's horrible and an entire huge religion called Buddhism is devoted to that one idea of leading your life in such a way that you FINALLY, after thousands of lifetimes, no longer have to reincarnate.

How many times you have died, have cried, have lost loved ones, have suffered terrible things, thousands of times, endlessly. How many more must you endure. Is it worth whatever it takes to have it all stop. These are the questions I try to think of every day.
 
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esse_est_percipi

Enlightened
Jul 14, 2020
1,747
an entire huge religion called Buddhism is devoted to that one idea of leading your life in such a way that you FINALLY, after thousands of lifetimes, no longer have to reincarnate.
Buddhism is a totalitarian and tyrannical cult fueled by hypocrisy and insensitivity.
How many times you have died, have cried, have lost loved ones, have suffered terrible things, thousands of times, endlessly. How many more must you endure. Is it worth whatever it takes to have it all stop
Yeah, just so, finally, at the end, you can find a bit of peace by fading into eternal oblivion.
It's a nightmare vision of existence (apart from the end, after thousands of lifetimes) and thankfully we have no evidence at all that it's true.
 
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G

Ghost2211

Archangel
Jan 20, 2020
6,015
Yes, even the slight possibility of that is terrifying. It would be nice if something kills me naturally before I get to ctb.
 
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TimeToBiteTheDust

Visionary
Nov 7, 2019
2,321
Honestly, I'll kill myself again if I reincarnate. Once is enough.
 
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Shiv15

Shiv15

Student
Sep 3, 2020
196
Well, there is a world after death. Afterlife does exist. But you aren't forced to reincarnate by anyone. It your own choice to reincarnate into the world. So don't worry about it.
 
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Tasdevil

Tasdevil

Student
Jan 20, 2020
115
I don't believe in reincarnation. Once our brain dies we would not have memories from Life it's a answer I guess no one can answer because we don't know what happens after death.
 
J

Journeytoletgo

Broken and hated 7-14 years long overdue
May 14, 2018
1,608
Even if this were true. "You" wouldn't be the one actually coming back. Terrifying to think about.
 
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noname223

Archangel
Aug 18, 2020
6,038
I really doubt that reincarnation exists. Does not seem logical for me because living beings increase in numbers on this planet. How should this function? It does not fit in my worldview.
 
FuneralCry

FuneralCry

Just wanting some peace
Sep 24, 2020
43,339
Not really. I do hope there is nothing after death and strongly believe in this. If there was reincarnation, I wouldn't be me at least. I could always ctb in another life if it was bad.
 
B

Beachedwhale

Mage
Mar 3, 2021
526
I really doubt that reincarnation exists. Does not seem logical for me because living beings increase in numbers on this planet. How should this function? It does not fit in my worldview.
It could be a reincarnation in the sense of coming to life on another planet in another galaxy, or this universe ending and another one beginning where life emerges again, or coming to life in a different universe etc
 
D

Darth Ruin

Member
Jul 23, 2021
9
I'm not sure consciousness can be reduced to simply chemical brain connections.
It could be much more fundamental and go much deeper than that.
The pribram-bohm hypothesis is something to be considered. [...]


This technical explanation is very interesting because it would fit into the observations made by Carl Jung when he tried to dig as deep into his subconscious as possible.

I feel like I have to explain first that philosophical, religious and psychological texts need to be read with a truly open mind very often, a dozen times or even more, for core meanings to become apparent to people not used to the deepest levels of thinking or discussion. An analytical, truly objective viewpoint is also necessary for true understanding without feeling attacked by statements that go against personal beliefs. Our mind sadly is used to always think itself as perfect in its perception regardless of how smart or aware one is. In theory human minds are perfect but in practicality it needs much training which people might or might not receive within their lifetimes because of upbringing or drawing false conclusions too early.

The extremely shorted version of Jung is:
After death we join the collective consciousness of humanity. All human souls come and go from there and gain guidance through instinct.
This is the core statement, any more or less falsifies its meaning.

So, this statement can be interpreted in a multitude of ways.
One negative interpretation would be that this makes individual lives meaningless as this over-soul is more important or the only thing of importance. We as individuals would be mere bacteria compared to it, insignificant to the highest degree. Bad people and evil acts, which there are always too many of, only serve to sabotage all our wellbeing for an excrutiatingly long time if not forever. Paranoia and anxiety on an infinite scale.

But a positive interpretation would be that every new life leads this over-soul to improvement and either we are improving infinitely or there is an end point that could give us eternal bliss. But it necessitates the annihilation of our egos to be able to feel this fullest of joys.

All religions (including spiritual movements) are based on this same concept of a collective and/or bliss at the end, but all have differences between each other just as most humans are different. The biggest religions can't or don't want to understand the core truth that would connect all of them as they put emphasis on a single key aspect of the whole that eventually consumes people negatively when driven to its logical conclusion. This doesn't mean that religions are evil, they are good for keeping those who want to spend less time thinking on a relatively right track and most humans never had the luxury to think deeply so it was and still is necessary. This is also why religions always condemn suicide because it just wastes time from a worldly perspective, but in actuality these mental blockades are plain necessary to overcome if one wants understanding and will eventually be overcome. Popular religions can't answer everything because one element has to override the reality of some details in order to make the narrative of the religion plausible yet easy to the people in need of guidance.

Many christians appear fake or fearful to outsiders from the belief because they have no dark side in them or suppress it, forcing themselves to be good for their god and the rewards of his kingdom. The fear of damnation in hell or their strong allegiance to god ruins their ability to connect with most people and gain love from one another, they are too dependent on God for their safety to be anything else but a reflection and might be broken because of the pressure.

I agree with esse_estpercip, Buddhism is tyrannical and insensitive. They deny themselves all pleasures of life out of the belief that this is a necessity, and put too much emphasis on the suffering. But this makes them inhuman and out of balance. Self-denial is a way of life for those who don't feel pain as strongly and are without a self (I doubt there are many, if any that really fit this mindset and don't take it on out of false beliefs). Buddhism is weird in that it recognizes in part that it can't end suffering and is mostly merely useful for coping in the real world. With this acknowledgement they transform suffering into their reason for existing and biggest enemy at the same time. At this point you either need rejection of that reality by substituting an after-existence or one needs the fullest annihilation of the self possible, but such extreme measures are obviously unnatural and beside the point when one considers that if suffering were the only point to life, why is there still some fleeting goodness around?

Hinduist karma concepts in India similarly place too much emphasis on eventual justice to guilt everyone into feeling content with their now in spite of the unjust reality they experience in the chaste system.

Some of the newest and closest yet weirdest religions must be Nosso Lar & Flipside. They are basically all the above collective consciousness stuff but in completely material and real world terms. The collective consciousness is made out to be an infinite city and everyone walks around and is nice to each other. You can learn about what you want and do what you want as our lives on Earth are voluntary life-lessons necessary to ascend into yet another, higher realm at best (Nosso Lar edition) or our beautiful and horrific lives are mere multiplayer videogames and fun theater plays to treat these godly peoples boredom at worst (Flipside edition). The latter especially is perfect for the age of materialism and instant-gratification, people that want to put as few thought into the values of their character as possible but still able to feign absolute superiority as they will get what they want regardless of their actions. But this is probably necessary to get the importance of good behavior across to most of the living today because people dislike thinking about theoretical concepts of immaterial space and timeless existence since it is so contradictory to what we experience in the now unless we force ourselves to think about deeper than surface level.

@noname223:
Overpopulation is something between a scattered mind and a trauma for the collective consciousnesses in this context. The last century was dictated by war and conflict so the consciousnesses rejects itself and fractures. People want to be further away from each other yet crave togetherness with identity politics that only comes slowly and is rejected when forced onto people. Eventually the problem will sort itself out and the population recedes when it fractured too much, or rather nothing is ever a problem when time is seen on a large enough scale.

On the concept of dog heaven: each species is its own collective according to Jung.
Then these collective consciousnesses of non-human lifeforms might be interconnected in some way which can only be guessed at based on real world evolution and similar instinctual behaviors between species. For example all mammals might depend on each others collective consciousness. In Flipside ideology non-human life appears unified and content with its lot in life of being at the mercy of humans and aware of reincarnation during their lifetimes. There might be some truth to that as they lack our intellectual capacity which complicates our understanding of the world, but are closer to nature and always find happiness in it.


To finish off:
It isn't necessary to be anything aside from what you want.
But to get what you want and stay happy with it, it must eventually lead into a higher ideal that carries you through the work and teaches resilience as Will alone can't bring you anything containing everlasting joy.
If you want material existence you get that in a reincarnation,
if you want to fix a past mistake you can do that in a reincarnation,
if you want a completely new life you get that in a reincarnation,
if you want to not exist at all you can do that and don't get reincarnated
Whatever you truly want with your heart will happen, if not now then later when your heart and reason know how to work together to achieve their goal. To understand this means you have all the time and choice in the world, which should give you the strength to make a first step out of misery.

If anyone has something to add like questions or logical flaws, I would like to read them. It's an interesting concept and I think we could all learn something from it.
 

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