Discussion Suicide prevention is basically ego stroking

[TAW122]

As an extension to the old thread I had, linking to a video that exposes what suicide prevention's intention really is, I have a few more additional remarks about what 'suicide prevention' is. Basically suicide prevention mainly serves as an ego-stroke and ego protection for the non-suicidal people. Non-suicidal people want to feel good about themselves while getting praised by the society at large and sticking it to the suicidal people. They know that suicidal people are vulnerable and have fewer than usual resources for recourse and means to fend for themselves so they feel powerful doing so and kicking the vulnerable while they are down. It's so disgusting. Anyhow, back to the whole topic about ego-stroking. It's all about the people's feelings and about how they would be sad if said person died. Naturally, sure any death is sad, but to deny someone their choice of deciding to CTB or continue living and then bully, gaslight, shame, guilt-trip, etc. those people into believing that life is good, is just abhorrent. If anything, it is the majority of people and the non-suicidal who are selfish and refuse to acknowledge, let alone (try to) solve the problems and root causes for those who are wanting to CTB. Apparently, it is easier for those people to virtue signal, attack the symptoms, and then deliberately ignore the truth than owning up to how shitty the society is and make an collective effort to change that.

Oh and this isn't even getting into the debate about that suicidal thoughts are mental illnesses and diseases, which is a claim I wholeheartly, strongly disagree with. Not only is that dismissive of a suicidal person's struggle, it also invalidates (as well as trivializes) the person's struggles.

I find it ironic that people and society at large have no problem with the less fortunate (homeless, destitute, and otherwise people really suffering from life circumstances (most often than not, not their fault, and out of their control) dying, but god forbid if those people (even the homeless and hopeless) decide to take their fate into their own hands, "oh no, we must prevent suicide!" says the majority of people. Talk about hypocrisy here. It's not about helping others or wanting the best for others, it's all about control and how they can extract as much resources or use the vulnerable until they are no good anymore.

There are just so many ways and things that deter suicide so anything that allows freedom of choice should be cherished. Look around just about anywhere in public, there are often lots of prolife rhetoric, life is good, and suicide is bad, death sucks, etc. Basically, I'm saying that there are countless checks and deterrence against suicide, yet hardly anything that even allows a neutral stance (I don't agree with suicide, but it's their body" types of people who will actually respect others' decision to end their life.)

 

[Onomotopoeia]

I really do not understand this mindset. I say this as someone who COMPLETELY believes the only person who can decide if your life is worth living is you.

Still, it seems to me this normies want to control/extort me mentality is in itself a projection. In my opinion its not some secret conspiracy to keep others down (there are some of those though) I just do not think this is it.

Most people are not chronic depressive, most people have NO idea what it's like to perceive death as more viable than life. The very idea that life is not worthing goes so far against the very fiber of their being that they are literally incapable of understanding a perception where death is the preferred outcome.

You may as well try to convince them they can fly, shoot fire out of their eyes, move at the speed of light all while watching the passage of all time past, present, and future in the blink of an eye.

Don't believe that? well the idea that suicide can ever come from a "healthy" mind is just as absurd to most of the rest of the world.

It's not a conspiracy it's simple ignorance because MOST of the world cannot even fathom the world we live in that is why we are labeled sick/other because clearly getting "healthy" is simple for us, just like for them.

 

[Sandman]

For anyone who engages in thinking about suicide---even if only for a few hours, even if only in a playful way---it is difficult to grasp the intrusive concern of society about his fate. This society did not care much about his existence. War is declared: he will be drafted and ordered to perform dutifully amidst blood and iron. His job was taken away after he was raised to do it: now he is unemployed and fobbed off with a pittance which he consumes and which consumes him. He falls ill: alas, there aren't enough beds in the hospital, the precious reliefs are scarce, the most valuable of all---a single room---is not available to him. Only now that he wishes to give in to the desire to be dead, only now that he is no longer willing to fight the disgust for existence, only now that dignity and humanity demand to do away cleanly and accomplish what he will have to do anyway one day: to disappear -- only now society behaves as if he were its most precious item, surrounds him with dreadful devices and demonstrates the utterly repulsive professional pride of the physicans, who then register his "rescue" on their business account, like hunters who strut towards the slaughtered game.

 

[been_there]

cos society = never never

 

[Sailfisher]

They are trying to save those who came upon it in an instant out of emotion. That is a noble thing. It is different than someone who has decided as a matter of logic and contemplation. Even the dignity organizations go through a process of verifying the intent is real and lasting.

 

[been_there]

Trouble is, that decision is so huge, when people lazily treat one (impulse) like the other (thought out) it can come across as fucking demeaning.

 

[RM5998]

As an extension to the old thread I had, linking to a video that exposes what suicide prevention's intention really is, I have a few more additional remarks about what 'suicide prevention' is. Basically suicide prevention mainly serves as an ego-stroke and ego protection for the non-suicidal people. Non-suicidal people want to feel good about themselves while getting praised by the society at large and sticking it to the suicidal people. They know that suicidal people are vulnerable and have fewer than usual resources for recourse and means to fend for themselves so they feel powerful doing so and kicking the vulnerable while they are down. It's so disgusting. Anyhow, back to the whole topic about ego-stroking. It's all about the people's feelings and about how they would be sad if said person died. Naturally, sure any death is sad, but to deny someone their choice of deciding to CTB or continue living and then bully, gaslight, shame, guilt-trip, etc. those people into believing that life is good, is just abhorrent. If anything, it is the majority of people and the non-suicidal who are selfish and refuse to acknowledge, let alone (try to) solve the problems and root causes for those who are wanting to CTB. Apparently, it is easier for those people to virtue signal, attack the symptoms, and then deliberately ignore the truth than owning up to how shitty the society is and make an collective effort to change that.

Oh and this isn't even getting into the debate about that suicidal thoughts are mental illnesses and diseases, which is a claim I wholeheartly, strongly disagree with. Not only is that dismissive of a suicidal person's struggle, it also invalidates (as well as trivializes) the person's struggles.

I find it ironic that people and society at large have no problem with the less fortunate (homeless, destitute, and otherwise people really suffering from life circumstances (most often than not, not their fault, and out of their control) dying, but god forbid if those people (even the homeless and hopeless) decide to take their fate into their own hands, "oh no, we must prevent suicide!" says the majority of people. Talk about hypocrisy here. It's not about helping others or wanting the best for others, it's all about control and how they can extract as much resources or use the vulnerable until they are no good anymore.

There are just so many ways and things that deter suicide so anything that allows freedom of choice should be cherished. Look around just about anywhere in public, there are often lots of prolife rhetoric, life is good, and suicide is bad, death sucks, etc. Basically, I'm saying that there are countless checks and deterrence against suicide, yet hardly anything that even allows a neutral stance (I don't agree with suicide, but it's their body" types of people who will actually respect others' decision to end their life.)

I've often called it virtue-signalling, just to use terminology most non-suicidal people can understand.

However, I still hesitate to think there is any malice involved (except in edge cases). I think most people are simply on a continuum from indifferent posers to ignorant meddlers. Yes, they are curtailing our freedom, but most people do not really deal with the idea of death rationally. Thus, it's not really possible to reason with them. We need a framework that either allows a rational discussion, or some way of effectively conveying our side in a way that's not easily dismissible, to cause the majority's perspectives to change.

 

[been_there]

Oh, there's malice. Both direct and indirect. Inciting people to ctb through smear and triangulating is what used to be called intimidation. Just another cover for murder. You don't think criminals move with the times?

Aside from that there are pro-lifers who are just knee-jerk helpers, lucky enough to have never had to consider it, or religious nutters who feel they are acting on some sort of principle.

 

[Mljonzy]

I don't think anyone has a right to stop any suicide everyone who attempts it has their reasons. I really hate it when someone gets involved trying to become a hero i have no problem with someone being nice to someone that's depressed and helping them in other ways but to directly try and stop someone ending their suffering is just wrong.

 

[Theon]

As an extension to the old thread I had, linking to a video that exposes what suicide prevention's intention really is, I have a few more additional remarks about what 'suicide prevention' is. Basically suicide prevention mainly serves as an ego-stroke and ego protection for the non-suicidal people. Non-suicidal people want to feel good about themselves while getting praised by the society at large and sticking it to the suicidal people. They know that suicidal people are vulnerable and have fewer than usual resources for recourse and means to fend for themselves so they feel powerful doing so and kicking the vulnerable while they are down. It's so disgusting. Anyhow, back to the whole topic about ego-stroking. It's all about the people's feelings and about how they would be sad if said person died. Naturally, sure any death is sad, but to deny someone their choice of deciding to CTB or continue living and then bully, gaslight, shame, guilt-trip, etc. those people into believing that life is good, is just abhorrent. If anything, it is the majority of people and the non-suicidal who are selfish and refuse to acknowledge, let alone (try to) solve the problems and root causes for those who are wanting to CTB. Apparently, it is easier for those people to virtue signal, attack the symptoms, and then deliberately ignore the truth than owning up to how shitty the society is and make an collective effort to change that.

Oh and this isn't even getting into the debate about that suicidal thoughts are mental illnesses and diseases, which is a claim I wholeheartly, strongly disagree with. Not only is that dismissive of a suicidal person's struggle, it also invalidates (as well as trivializes) the person's struggles.

I find it ironic that people and society at large have no problem with the less fortunate (homeless, destitute, and otherwise people really suffering from life circumstances (most often than not, not their fault, and out of their control) dying, but god forbid if those people (even the homeless and hopeless) decide to take their fate into their own hands, "oh no, we must prevent suicide!" says the majority of people. Talk about hypocrisy here. It's not about helping others or wanting the best for others, it's all about control and how they can extract as much resources or use the vulnerable until they are no good anymore.

There are just so many ways and things that deter suicide so anything that allows freedom of choice should be cherished. Look around just about anywhere in public, there are often lots of prolife rhetoric, life is good, and suicide is bad, death sucks, etc. Basically, I'm saying that there are countless checks and deterrence against suicide, yet hardly anything that even allows a neutral stance (I don't agree with suicide, but it's their body" types of people who will actually respect others' decision to end their life.)

Here! Here! I completely agree with you. I had a failed attempt and ended up in the psych ward for three days. There was rampant mental illness. While I won't say I'm mentally 100% (at least compared to how I used to be), I didn't feel I was in the same boat. I had abused drugs for years and that left me with permanent anhedonia and a constant, debilitating anxiety that hasn't gone away in a year. My relationships have all suffered, my career, etc. I don't think I can work this way. But I'm aware of what's going on and can articulate what I'm feeling. I was not high when I attempted to ctb. I only wish I hadn't rushed and really researched. But I can clearly see my life, where I went wrong, and where this will lead. There is a good chance I will end up penniless, homeless, etc. I want to go with some dignity intact. I'm already a shadow of the person I used to be. I don't want things to get worse.

 

[Onomotopoeia]

Here! Here! I completely agree with you. I had a failed attempt and ended up in the psych ward for three days. There was rampant mental illness. While I won't say I'm mentally 100% (at least compared to how I used to be), I didn't feel I was in the same boat. I had abused drugs for years and that left me with permanent anhedonia and a constant, debilitating anxiety that hasn't gone away in a year. My relationships have all suffered, my career, etc. I don't think I can work this way. But I'm aware of what's going on and can articulate what I'm feeling. I was not high when I attempted to ctb. I only wish I hadn't rushed and really researched. But I can clearly see my life, where I went wrong, and where this will lead. There is a good chance I will end up penniless, homeless, etc. I want to go with some dignity intact. I'm already a shadow of the person I used to be. I don't want things to get worse.

IMO that is the real issue. The "mandatory" psych holds built just to take people's money and offer no actual value. It's a very broken system and probably the only part of this mindset where I truly agree there is some malice involved by the people who set those policies and/or advocate for them

A 3 day psych stay is a nice chunk of change for some CEO and in my experience most are really closer to a week (at least for me)

 

[not_a_robot]

See, you can't possibly think what you think, because it's different from what they think, so clearly you are wrong.

It's as simple as that.

 

[RM5998]

See, you can't possibly think what you think, because it's different from what they think, so clearly you are wrong.

It's as simple as that.

That's about as accurate as it gets. Since our desire to CTB is used as grounds for discarding our point of view, simply stating our stance is useless. And while all they need is a TED talk style emotionally charged narrative to make their point, our arguments, being rational, would take a lot longer.

 

[SinisterKid]

I read a really interesting report earlier today that talked about career suicide. That people who were seen as such, were not depressed or suffering any great mental ill health, they were just prone to suicidal ideation as a means of controlling some aspect of their own life. So the whole scenario of suicide was about control and not ill health. I can relate to that quite easily. So, the point was, not everyone who is suicidal is disturbed or ill or anything remotely like it, its a life choice because most areas of life are out of their own control.

 

[Antinous]

People need (and have an inherent right to) the means for a peaceful death, meaning:
- the person is at peace with their death
- the manner of dying is as comfortable, painless, and calm as possible
- the time and place of death is in accordance with the person's wishes
- the dignity of the person is respected by all

A person's dignity is abused by those who deny them the conditions for a peaceful death. Medical people, legal people, and relatives try to make death a medical event. Birth and death are not medical events. Nobody ever asked a medical or legal person for permission to be born. But at death, medical and legal people force a person to ask permission, and to accept all manner of aggressive and pointless strategies that only serve to transfer the person's monetary assets to them instead of to the person's heirs.

 

[MAIO]

As an extension to the old thread I had, linking to a video that exposes what suicide prevention's intention really is, I have a few more additional remarks about what 'suicide prevention' is. Basically suicide prevention mainly serves as an ego-stroke and ego protection for the non-suicidal people. Non-suicidal people want to feel good about themselves while getting praised by the society at large and sticking it to the suicidal people. They know that suicidal people are vulnerable and have fewer than usual resources for recourse and means to fend for themselves so they feel powerful doing so and kicking the vulnerable while they are down. It's so disgusting. Anyhow, back to the whole topic about ego-stroking. It's all about the people's feelings and about how they would be sad if said person died. Naturally, sure any death is sad, but to deny someone their choice of deciding to CTB or continue living and then bully, gaslight, shame, guilt-trip, etc. those people into believing that life is good, is just abhorrent. If anything, it is the majority of people and the non-suicidal who are selfish and refuse to acknowledge, let alone (try to) solve the problems and root causes for those who are wanting to CTB. Apparently, it is easier for those people to virtue signal, attack the symptoms, and then deliberately ignore the truth than owning up to how shitty the society is and make an collective effort to change that.

Oh and this isn't even getting into the debate about that suicidal thoughts are mental illnesses and diseases, which is a claim I wholeheartly, strongly disagree with. Not only is that dismissive of a suicidal person's struggle, it also invalidates (as well as trivializes) the person's struggles.

I find it ironic that people and society at large have no problem with the less fortunate (homeless, destitute, and otherwise people really suffering from life circumstances (most often than not, not their fault, and out of their control) dying, but god forbid if those people (even the homeless and hopeless) decide to take their fate into their own hands, "oh no, we must prevent suicide!" says the majority of people. Talk about hypocrisy here. It's not about helping others or wanting the best for others, it's all about control and how they can extract as much resources or use the vulnerable until they are no good anymore.

There are just so many ways and things that deter suicide so anything that allows freedom of choice should be cherished. Look around just about anywhere in public, there are often lots of prolife rhetoric, life is good, and suicide is bad, death sucks, etc. Basically, I'm saying that there are countless checks and deterrence against suicide, yet hardly anything that even allows a neutral stance (I don't agree with suicide, but it's their body" types of people who will actually respect others' decision to end their life.)

"What happens after you die."

"Eternal paradise better state imaginable forever."

"Wow, that sounds so much better than life."

"It truly is."

"How long do you want to live."

"Until the last possible second, no matter how much pain and suffering it brings me."

"But won't you be in a better state after death."

"You are fucked in the head, clearly mentally ill. No rational person would want to die any sooner than they could live"

Me double face palm

Pro-life stance on suicide is generally on shaky ground, poorly thought out. The arguments almost always assume the assumption life is superior to death and always without proving the assumption. It's much more than that though. Since we have been children we have it rubbed into is in every conceivable way life is the best thing ever death is the worst thing ever. Challenging this believe is a direct challenge to one of the foundations of their world view. Religion is self can be argued to act as a denial of death more so than what they claim to believe. If you believe you go to eternal paradise after you die, your loved ones go to eternal paradise after you die, you would look forward to death and it would be selfish for you to not be happy for loved ones when they die, as they would be in a far better place. Instead religious people resist death as much as possible, try to live until the last possible second, argue they can't comprehend why someone would want to choose death over life and so on. All of this is inconsistent with the view that you go to eternal paradise after death. Religious people do not live their life that way, do not act like they believe they are going to eternal paradise, etc.

I could go on forever but I will stop here

 

[RM5998]

I read a really interesting report earlier today that talked about career suicide. That people who were seen as such, were not depressed or suffering any great mental ill health, they were just prone to suicidal ideation as a means of controlling some aspect of their own life. So the whole scenario of suicide was about control and not ill health. I can relate to that quite easily. So, the point was, not everyone who is suicidal is disturbed or ill or anything remotely like it, its a life choice because most areas of life are out of their own control.

I don't think it's a life choice per se... but yeah, I get the point. However, the odds of being able to make someone understand the idea expressed therein in 15 minutes seem close to nil if they don't understand suicidal ideation.

 

[stbdchick]

I disagree with the premise. I've been pro-choice on this topic for well over 2 decades now and have also spent hundreds of hours talking to people on the brink, generally trying to talk them out of it.

I suspect that part of why many have been OK talking with me is because they know I *won't* take their choice from them. You can quit talking to me at any time and there's no chance whatsoever I'll call the cops. I'm *safe* to work out your choice with.

The thing about depression is it sometimes goes away. Sometimes via meds or therapy, but sometimes just randomly - who knows why? And the thing about having safe people to talk to is you can sometimes postpone the choice until that occurs.

IMO, having a method is similar. Knowing if it really gets too much, you can escape at any time can give you the courage to try just for today.

I was seriously suicidal for about a year, got past the depression, and went on for a couple decades. I'm honestly not particularly depressed even now, just physically ill and on the verge of nursing home care, which strikes me as something worth avoiding. It turned out my life was worth living for a couple more decades.

However, everyone doesn't get over it. I had a friend who caught the bus after 10 years of multiple hospitalizations, individual and group therapy, and every combination of meds available. I can't say he was wrong. How long should someone try? That's a very individual question.

I have spent 10-12 hours at a time talking to people - to wait and see what tomorrow brings. It might be better. It also might be worse and if so, you can do it then.

I don't *know* that it will get better for you. But you don't really *know* it will get worse (unless you have a degenerative disease). Figuring it out with you is not an ego thing, it's an empathy thing.

 

[not_a_robot]

I disagree with the premise. I've been pro-choice on this topic for well over 2 decades now and have also spent hundreds of hours talking to people on the brink, generally trying to talk them out of it.

I suspect that part of why many have been OK talking with me is because they know I *won't* take their choice from them. You can quit talking to me at any time and there's no chance whatsoever I'll call the cops. I'm *safe* to work out your choice with.

The thing about depression is it sometimes goes away. Sometimes via meds or therapy, but sometimes just randomly - who knows why? And the thing about having safe people to talk to is you can sometimes postpone the choice until that occurs.

IMO, having a method is similar. Knowing if it really gets too much, you can escape at any time can give you the courage to try just for today.

I was seriously suicidal for about a year, got past the depression, and went on for a couple decades. I'm honestly not particularly depressed even now, just physically ill and on the verge of nursing home care, which strikes me as something worth avoiding. It turned out my life was worth living for a couple more decades.

However, everyone doesn't get over it. I had a friend who caught the bus after 10 years of multiple hospitalizations, individual and group therapy, and every combination of meds available. I can't say he was wrong. How long should someone try? That's a very individual question.

I have spent 10-12 hours at a time talking to people - to wait and see what tomorrow brings. It might be better. It also might be worse and if so, you can do it then.

I don't *know* that it will get better for you. But you don't really *know* it will get worse (unless you have a degenerative disease). Figuring it out with you is not an ego thing, it's an empathy thing.

Well you don't know that your illness will get worse. Some people recover miraculously for no reason, so you need to give up the thought of suicide and just try to recover. I'm not saying that out of ego, it's "empathy".

Do you see how condescending that is? Or do you need me to go on?

They are trying to save those who came upon it in an instant out of emotion. That is a noble thing. It is different than someone who has decided as a matter of logic and contemplation. Even the dignity organizations go through a process of verifying the intent is real and lasting.

The recovery industry doesn't believe suicidal people are capable of logic and contemplation. It believes we just need to be imprisoned until we learn to pretend to feel "right". And yes they do get paid for that imprisonment, what a coincidence. Their "noble" intentions are financially motivated.

 

[stbdchick]

Yeah, that's not empathy. Empathy is listening to people where they are. You didn't listen, or even question.

As it happens, I don't have an illness, I have multiple illnesses and have been physically disintegrating for over a decade now. In another thread, you suggested I do something fun, like see a movie, and none of the to-do's I need to do, without any realization that to organize going to a movie would add like 10 things to my to-do list and organizing with multiple people.

I assume your advice was given from a place of empathy, and not ego; that you intended kindness.

You assume my intentions are bad; I have no need to dissuade you. I presume if you're on the edge and want to talk it over with someone, you won't choose me. That's fine, cause honestly, listening to people tell you their pain for 10-12 hours at a time is extremely draining and I'm not up for it anymore. I have great difficulty just keeping myself fed and watered, with 32 hours of assistance per week; I literally can't do it for anyone.

But I don't regret any of it that I did when I did, whether people ctb or not. People need to be heard in either case. Being willing to listen is not an ego thing; no one even knew who I was. I used the same nick on ASH back in the day, very few folks ever even knew my name.

It is only ego in the sense that... I care about what kind of human being I am. But if you write that off to ego, well, then everything is ego. That I am not a serial killer is just ego. So... whatever.

 

[not_a_robot]

You're right. It wasn't empathy, it was a parody of people who pretend they're empathetic when they're really just trying to enforce their way of thinking on others by being subtly manipulative.

 

[stbdchick]

Being willing to listen when someone needs to talk does not strike me as being subtly manipulative.

One of my cats crawled into bed with me last night; I petted him. I woke repeatedly and petted him more. It's just interacting, ya know?

 

[not_a_robot]

The definition of empathy is understanding another entity's needs, not assuming they are the same as your own.

 

[RM5998]

I disagree with the premise. I've been pro-choice on this topic for well over 2 decades now and have also spent hundreds of hours talking to people on the brink, generally trying to talk them out of it.

I suspect that part of why many have been OK talking with me is because they know I *won't* take their choice from them. You can quit talking to me at any time and there's no chance whatsoever I'll call the cops. I'm *safe* to work out your choice with.

The thing about depression is it sometimes goes away. Sometimes via meds or therapy, but sometimes just randomly - who knows why? And the thing about having safe people to talk to is you can sometimes postpone the choice until that occurs.

IMO, having a method is similar. Knowing if it really gets too much, you can escape at any time can give you the courage to try just for today.

I was seriously suicidal for about a year, got past the depression, and went on for a couple decades. I'm honestly not particularly depressed even now, just physically ill and on the verge of nursing home care, which strikes me as something worth avoiding. It turned out my life was worth living for a couple more decades.

However, everyone doesn't get over it. I had a friend who caught the bus after 10 years of multiple hospitalizations, individual and group therapy, and every combination of meds available. I can't say he was wrong. How long should someone try? That's a very individual question.

I have spent 10-12 hours at a time talking to people - to wait and see what tomorrow brings. It might be better. It also might be worse and if so, you can do it then.

I don't *know* that it will get better for you. But you don't really *know* it will get worse (unless you have a degenerative disease). Figuring it out with you is not an ego thing, it's an empathy thing.

To me, the stance you've put forward sounds... invalid (in the strict sense of the term). I get that you had a duty as a person on the other end of a hotline, but I don't really see any way apart from that role to justify the idea that someone should 'go on till tomorrow', so to say.

I believe that suicide does not need to be the objectively right choice in retrospect. Just like all the other choices we make, one's suicide only needs to be justified to oneself in the current moment. And from that perspective, saying that someone should live on for whatever reason is... well, wrong.

Of course, if someone has called you on the suicide hotline, there's the presumption that suicide is the wrong course of action, so... I don't really get how they are supposed to work.

 

[stbdchick]

Yes, and that requires listening.

I don't know your story, so have no idea what you should do; I can't even begin to give advice without listening first.

And again, I think most people, whether they are going to ctb or not, want to be heard. If they didn't, they wouldn't be talking to me in the first place.

If the cat doesn't crawl into bed with me, I don't hunt him down and stick him there and pet him against his will, ya know? He wouldn't put up with it if I tried and he has claws!

To me, the stance you've put forward sounds... irrational (in the strict sense of the term). I get that you had a duty as a person on the other end of a hotline, but I don't really see any way apart from that role to justify the idea that someone should 'go on till tomorrow', so to say.

I believe that suicide does not need to be the objectively right choice in retrospect. Just like all the other choices we make, one's suicide only needs to be justified to oneself in the current moment. And from that perspective, saying that someone should live on for whatever reason is... well, wrong.

Of course, if someone has called you on the suicide hotline, there's the presumption that suicide is the wrong course of action, so... I don't really get how they are supposed to work.

I've never worked for a hotline; just spoke to people on ASH, which was sort of a precursor to this place, back when the internet was Usenet and IRC rather than web forums and chat.

I'm really not getting the confusion my post is causing; do none of you ever chat with each other when one is in a bad place? I don't know, really, I'm new here.

 

[not_a_robot]

Yes, and that requires listening.

I don't know your story, so have no idea what you should do; I can't even begin to give advice without listening first.

And again, I think most people, whether they are going to ctb or not, want to be heard. If they didn't, they wouldn't be talking to me in the first place.

If the cat doesn't crawl into bed with me, I don't hunt him down and stick him there and pet him against his will, ya know? He wouldn't put up with it if I tried and he has claws!


I've never worked for a hotline; just spoke to people on ASH, which was sort of a precursor to this place, back when the internet was Usenet and IRC rather than web forums and chat.

I'm really not getting the confusion my post is causing; do none of you ever chat with each other when one is in a bad place? I don't know, really, I'm new here.

It's fine, we like you, it just came across as presumptive. Like if we told you keep fighting your illness and praying for recovery after you've stated your feelings that you want to CtB before you have to go into a nursing home.

 

[RM5998]

I've never worked for a hotline; just spoke to people on ASH, which was sort of a precursor to this place, back when the internet was Usenet and IRC rather than web forums and chat.

I'm really not getting the confusion my post is causing; do none of you ever chat with each other when one is in a bad place? I don't know, really, I'm new here.

Sorry, it sounded from the 10-12 hour figure that you worked at a hotline. I can't imagine someone voluntarily speaking to suicidal people for that long at a stretch unless it was literally their job. Most conversations I've had over here take place in fits and starts, even when I'm at my lowest.

We do talk to each other, but getting through the day is more about having to do so because there is no other choice. And that's pretty much always a bad thing, because of said lack of choice.

As I said, your argument for seeing it through to the next day seems invalid to me. Since we don't know if the next day will be better, worse or the same, if someone has the opportunity to commit suicide, they are still entitled to make that decision today as per their best judgement. A degenerative disease isn't the only argument to be made for pushing the odds towards worse - it's merely one of the easiest ones to justify. Your argument seemed to be implying that if someone is confused about what they should do they should wait till the next day, which is what I disagreed with. If I've been presumptuous in thinking so, I apologize.

 

[stbdchick]

I would likely advise someone who is confused to wait; I think one ought to be pretty darned certain.

That doesn't mean you can't do it with the degree of uncertainty you're OK with though. I mean, I remain pro-choice even if I entirely disagree with you.

But this is very theoretical as I don't actually know ANY of you to agree or disagree.

I spent that kind of time doing it because while I was physically healthy then, I was too depressed to work or go out and could barely even grocery shop. My life was chatting on an ASH-related channel until too tired to continue, then sleeping, then logging back on again. Since I was considered a pseudo-leader of the channel, hitting me up for convo was a regular thing; frankly, I often was talking 2 or 3 people out of it for hours on end, while talking in the main channel and having other non-critical private convos. I type fast, but very badly.

But as I've noted elsewhere, some people had long, heart-felt, private conversations with the channel bot, which did nothing but quote Marvin from Hitchhiker's Guide. So it's not like I am so awesome or whatever, though I kind of hope I did a better job than Marvin, overall. ;)

 

[RM5998]

I would likely advise someone who is confused to wait; I think one ought to be pretty darned certain.

That doesn't mean you can't do it with the degree of uncertainty you're OK with though. I mean, I remain pro-choice even if I entirely disagree with you.

But this is very theoretical as I don't actually know ANY of you to agree or disagree.

I spent that kind of time doing it because while I was physically healthy then, I was too depressed to work or go out and could barely even grocery shop. My life was chatting on an ASH-related channel until too tired to continue, then sleeping, then logging back on again. Since I was considered a pseudo-leader of the channel, hitting me up for convo was a regular thing; frankly, I often was talking 2 or 3 people out of it for hours on end, while talking in the main channel and having other non-critical private convos. I type fast, but very badly.

But as I've noted elsewhere, some people had long, heart-felt, private conversations with the channel bot, which did nothing but quote Marvin from Hitchhiker's Guide. So it's not like I am so awesome or whatever, though I kind of hope I did a better job than Marvin, overall. ;)

With all due respect, my goal was to discuss the issue in the generalizable abstract. I was attempting to form a universal statement that could stand despite the variety of human experience. I believe that rational arguments need to be formulated in that context, and the only way to arrive at a useful truth is to construct a dialogue in that fashion.

May I ask why you believe that suicide is something one must be completely certain about?

 

[been_there]

Non-suicidal people want to feel good about themselves while getting praised by the society at large and sticking it to the suicidal people. They know that suicidal people are vulnerable and have fewer than usual resources for recourse and means to fend for themselves so they feel powerful doing so and kicking the vulnerable while they are down. It's so disgusting.

From the original post, sadly this is the truth, but the recovery industry isn't the problem. There are a few people who genuninely care for others and support when asked without any care for virtue signalling.

Most don't though. A huge swathe of the population is attacked daily by society. The disabled, the sick, the poor. Stating and trying to counter that isn't virtue signalling. Many have lives where they don't want to see tomorrow, they may be helped and go on for a few more months. Maybe that time was OK for them, maybe it wasn't.

As the OP says, its all rooted in control. Most people need their 'tribe' and their 'us and them' and their 'isolate and destroy' to feel special. As such they're easily manipulated by the lowest humanity has to offer. Whether that be politicians or spiteful little scumbags and petty criminals.

I've been stalked, sabotaged and assaulted for years by these scum. When I ctb because of it is that murder?