Venting 'suicide is cowardly'

[kinzokukae]

i know that most of society share this view - that ending your own life instead of trying to recover from your illnesses is foolish and a sad but frowned-upon event. what i don't get though, is how people can say this without being more informed. there are so many reasons to ctb, and not a single one are cowardly or a bad reason.

take, for example, people who don't want to recover. people who are fully aware that, yes, they could invest the time, effort and money needed, but they don't want to. there isn't anything for them to live for - to them, life is meaningless, or they've lost their purpose.

or, what about people with crippling disabilities? those that are in excruciating pain every day, or struggle to do even the most basic tasks. while they may not be at immediate risk of dying, does that mean they should fight to survive if they don't want to?

i feel society is too hell-bent on keeping every mentally ill person alive - and while this is great for those that want a supportive community for recovery, it's absolute hell for those that don't. people are so focused on the future possibilities to realise that not everyone wants to be part of that future, no matter how much you enforce therapy, counselling, medication, etc. i, for one, don't want to 'get better', and i don't understand why that mentality is so taboo, in this world of constantly shifting opinions and ideologies.

sorry if this makes no sense lol. but i can't talk about this to anyone i know since they won't understand a word, so i'm hoping you guys can get my point.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

When my friend's mom was dying of cancer and elected to not have treatment that would only extend her life -- and her suffering -- by a few months, I told my friend, "Watch. Death brings out the idiots and the assholes." And sure enough, her mom's siblings had shit fits, they wanted her to have those treatments. They were assholes the last months of her life, and they were assholes at her funeral. Everything was utterly about them.

People cannot seem to comprehend the pain that others experience. If they're not feeling it, it's not happening. They can see someone stooped in pain, pale, losing weight, grimacing, crying, etc., but they just can't seem to fathom the pain that is the root cause. Even those who have suffered, once they are well, can lose compassion for others' suffering. All pain is invisible, so it can be denied and disbelieved.

Maybe everyone who is in any kind of pain, whether physical or mental or emotional or spiritual, should be able to attach something to others and zap them so that they feel the pain, too, and therefore can empathize. For those who argue against someone considering suicide to end their pain, or who want death with dignity, stick that thing on them, turn it up to a 10 and say, "If you can breeze through that for a whole week, I'll live, otherwise, stfu, give me a compassionate hug, and grab a shovel."

 

[kinzokukae]

When my friend's mom was dying of cancer and elected to not have treatment that would only extend her life -- and her suffering -- by a few months, I told my friend, "Watch. Death brings out the idiots and the assholes." And sure enough, her mom's siblings had shit fits, they wanted her to have those treatments. They were assholes the last months of her life, and they were assholes at her funeral. Everything was utterly about them.

sorry you and your friend had to go through that, but yes, that's exactly my point - if you cannot comprehend someone's suffering, why make them live through it longer? why not just support them from the sidelines, no matter their choice? it's annoying, frankly, how people think they're doing what's best for us, but they don't even fully understand what we're experiencing in the first place.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

sorry you and your friend had to go through that, but yes, that's exactly my point - if you cannot comprehend someone's suffering, why make them live through it longer? why not just support them from the sidelines, no matter their choice? it's annoying, frankly, how people think they're doing what's best for us, but they don't even fully understand what we're experiencing in the first place.

I think people do what's best for them and play mental gymnastics to convince themselves they're doing what's best for the other person.

A lot if it is governed by social myths that people buy into without ever stopping to question. And there are myths that make it seem dangerous or undesirable to question. The myth of selfishness is quite an effective tool to control, and it's usually utter bullshit.

A good myth will have an emotional element that people will cling to beyond reason. For instance, nationalistic myths promote pride and belonging, and stir up patriotic fervor. Selfishness is ostracizing, and people who are called selfish may be motivated to return to the fold, and if they don't, the one calling them selfish feels puffed up and "right," without any clue of what's really going on. The reverse is actually true -- the one calling out selfishness is caught up within their own self and completely unaware of the experience of another; they invalidate what they do not even recognize or know, until it happens to them, and then they are hurt and offended when on the receiving end.

Have you ever read Foucault's "Madness and Civilization"? If not, Wikipedia has an excellent summary. Over a 150 year period that included the 18th century, madness became criminalized along with poverty and indebtedness in much of Western Civilization. In Britain and France, "mad" inmates were let out into the prison yard on Sundays, when families were out for walks, as a form of amusement. It was also a subtle manipulation of the masses; the witnesses could be relieved that they were not like the "other" on display and so feel superior, but sanctioned "appropriate" behaviors were also reinforced.

 

[Bct]

i know that most of society share this view - that ending your own life instead of trying to recover from your illnesses is foolish and a sad but frowned-upon event. what i don't get though, is how people can say this without being more informed. there are so many reasons to ctb, and not a single one are cowardly or a bad reason.

take, for example, people who don't want to recover. people who are fully aware that, yes, they could invest the time, effort and money needed, but they don't want to. there isn't anything for them to live for - to them, life is meaningless, or they've lost their purpose.

or, what about people with crippling disabilities? those that are in excruciating pain every day, or struggle to do even the most basic tasks. while they may not be at immediate risk of dying, does that mean they should fight to survive if they don't want to?

i feel society is too hell-bent on keeping every mentally ill person alive - and while this is great for those that want a supportive community for recovery, it's absolute hell for those that don't. people are so focused on the future possibilities to realise that not everyone wants to be part of that future, no matter how much you enforce therapy, counselling, medication, etc. i, for one, don't want to 'get better', and i don't understand why that mentality is so taboo, in this world of constantly shifting opinions and ideologies.

sorry if this makes no sense lol. but i can't talk about this to anyone i know since they won't understand a word, so i'm hoping you guys can get my point.

In my opinion, because most people still view suffering as something beatable, no matter how long or how hard to recover from it. Survivorship bias also plays a part when people in worse condition than us are able to become better, so most people are assuming you can do it too, while ignoring those who aren't able to survive. Hopefully what I said makes sense.

 

[Swedish Equality]

Most people don't know what is suicide and what was behind. They can't realise how hard it is to do it. They're incompetent people who want to show how "kind" and "smart" they are. Only a coward can talk like that. Vanity

 

[madbananas]

i know that most of society share this view - that ending your own life instead of trying to recover from your illnesses is foolish and a sad but frowned-upon event. what i don't get though, is how people can say this without being more informed. there are so many reasons to ctb, and not a single one are cowardly or a bad reason.

take, for example, people who don't want to recover. people who are fully aware that, yes, they could invest the time, effort and money needed, but they don't want to. there isn't anything for them to live for - to them, life is meaningless, or they've lost their purpose.

or, what about people with crippling disabilities? those that are in excruciating pain every day, or struggle to do even the most basic tasks. while they may not be at immediate risk of dying, does that mean they should fight to survive if they don't want to?

i feel society is too hell-bent on keeping every mentally ill person alive - and while this is great for those that want a supportive community for recovery, it's absolute hell for those that don't. people are so focused on the future possibilities to realise that not everyone wants to be part of that future, no matter how much you enforce therapy, counselling, medication, etc. i, for one, don't want to 'get better', and i don't understand why that mentality is so taboo, in this world of constantly shifting opinions and ideologies.

sorry if this makes no sense lol. but i can't talk about this to anyone i know since they won't understand a word, so i'm hoping you guys can get my point.

I get your point. Absolutely anyone who says suicide is cowardly is ignorant. How is it cowardly to go against your survival instinct to do the ultimate act to relieve the pain.
I also hate it when people refer to suicide as selfish. Again, a statement made typically by people who have no clue.

 

[Deleted member 17949]

For most people life does have some meaning, but they fail to understand that the meaning is only there because their brains are making emotions in just the right way to make life feel meaningful. They don't understand that our minds just aren't doing that for us.

 

[kinzokukae]

I get your point. Absolutely anyone who says suicide is cowardly is ignorant. How is it cowardly to go against your survival instinct to do the ultimate act to relieve the pain.
I also hate it when people refer to suicide as selfish. Again, a statement made typically by people who have no clue.

honestly, i can get being upset that someone you know wants to end their life, but to call it selfish or cowardly? do they not see the irony in that? if you want them alive and happy, maybe try being more supportive or open minded, not criticising them because you can't understand their pov

For most people life does have some meaning, but they fail to understand that the meaning is only there because their brains are making emotions in just the right way to make life feel meaningful. They don't understand that our minds just aren't doing that for us.

ah, to have a normal mind. wonder what it's like

 

[Philosykos]

Yeah, I agree with cryptic_egg. Also it seems that most people have some inherent will to live. No matter how hard the going gets, how much the deck seems stacked against them and how much shit life throws at them, most people hold on to a strong sense to survive - so much so that they don't even realise it. They don't even think of death as a serious option. I wonder what it's like to be like that. I cannot recall ever having the will to live. Don't get me wrong, I haven't always been suicidal, but before I was, I was definitely a 'if a bus hit me now, I couldn't care less' type of person.

 

[kinzokukae]

I cannot recall ever having the will to live. Don't get me wrong, I haven't always been suicidal, but before I was, I was definitely a 'if a bus hit me now, I couldn't care less' type of person.

damn, same here. even when i was a child i was never particularly scared of death or concerned about it. i've always been curious about people who say their biggest fear is death - not the actual act of dying, but just being dead. how can you be scared of that state? it's just eternal rest

 

[a.n.kirillov]

That has not been my experience. Most people I have talked to about suicide do not condemn it but see it for what it is.

 

[Sprite_Geist]

I've never understood it when some people say that suicide is "cowardly".

First of all: Most if not every person fears death, and that's not a bad thing. As Madbananas said above it's survival instinct. It's our brains trying to, you know, keep us alive. Organic life would not exist if it had no desire, through fear or otherwise, to survive. So it's not cowardly to avoid dying, or to stay away from danger that might lead to death. It's for this same reason, though, that wanting to die isn't cowardly either. To end your own life requires you to overcome said fear of death - pushing past it, and to fight through any fear is the opposite of cowardice. From a purely biological point you're pretty much forcefully overriding a basic parameter that's been hardwired into every species since forever. Now depending on a persons circumstances that takes a lot of will. Though this may not be true for those who do it impulsively, but I shouldn't judge... Perhaps that sounds insensitive of me?

Second: Even if suicide was cowardly (not saying it is) why does it matter? Why does "cowardice" as a concept even exist? Because it shouldn't. Cowardice means to avoid situations that are challenging or scary. It's used negatively to imply there's something wrong with being scared, or not wanting to go through hard times. But who says we've got to endure every last ounce of pain? If a herbivore sees a predator it runs away, but we don't call it cowardly. The prey does so because it doesn't want to be ripped apart and face a lot of pain. It's called "not wanting to suffer". Yet we're the only species that seemingly stigmatizes this type of behaviour among our own kind. This points to cowardice being a man-made concept.

Plus wanting to CTB is similar to the herbivore and predator example - except they take it a step further. They're not even wanting to avoid pain just find relief. They're not cowardly running away from their fears, but running towards peace. They're not "giving up", but knowing that it's time to stop. There's a difference.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I've never understood it when some people say that suicide is "cowardly".

First of all: Most if not every person fears death, and that's not a bad thing. As Madbananas said above it's survival instinct. It's our brains trying to, you know, keep us alive. Organic life would not exist if it had no desire, through fear or otherwise, to survive. So it's not cowardly to avoid dying, or to stay away from danger that might lead to death. It's for this same reason, though, that wanting to die isn't cowardly either. To end your own life requires you to overcome said fear of death - pushing past it, and to fight through any fear is the opposite of cowardice. From a purely biological point you're pretty much forcefully overriding a basic parameter that's been hardwired into every species since forever. Now depending on a persons circumstances that takes a lot of will. Though this may not be true for those who do it impulsively, but I shouldn't judge... Perhaps that sounds insensitive of me?

Second: Even if suicide was cowardly (not saying it is) why does it matter? Why does "cowardice" as a concept even exist? Because it shouldn't. Cowardice means to avoid situations that are challenging or scary. It's used negatively to imply there's something wrong with being scared, or not wanting to go through hard times. But who says we've got to endure every last ounce of pain? If a herbivore sees a predator it runs away, but we don't call it cowardly. The prey does so because it doesn't want to be ripped apart and face a lot of pain. It's called "not wanting to suffer". Yet we're the only species that seemingly stigmatizes this type of behaviour among our own kind. This points to cowardice being a man-made concept.

Plus wanting to CTB is similar to the herbivore and predator example - except they take it a step further. They're not even wanting to avoid pain just find relief. They're not cowardly running away from their fears, but running towards peace. They're not "giving up", but knowing that it's time to stop. There's a difference.

It's too bad we can only give one react, or that reacts can't be weighted, because I want to like and love and wow and hug the fuck out of this post.

Thank you for this particular gift: I'm not giving up, it's just time to stop what I am not capable of stopping otherwise.

If anything, I'm maintaining what I do not want to give up, the self that I like, respect, and honor. The Stoics approved of suicide for maintaining one's dignitas, their sense of self, and their virtue. If conditions prohibit one from maintaining their virtue, it is, to them, wise to exit from the conditions, including ill health, poverty, madness, and being under the power of tyrants.

 

[kinzokukae]

That has not been my experience. Most people I have talked to about suicide do not condemn it but see it for what it is.

wish i knew people as open as those (,:

I've never understood it when some people say that suicide is "cowardly".

First of all: Most if not every person fears death, and that's not a bad thing. As Madbananas said above it's survival instinct. It's our brains trying to, you know, keep us alive. Organic life would not exist if it had no desire, through fear or otherwise, to survive. So it's not cowardly to avoid dying, or to stay away from danger that might lead to death. It's for this same reason, though, that wanting to die isn't cowardly either. To end your own life requires you to overcome said fear of death - pushing past it, and to fight through any fear is the opposite of cowardice. From a purely biological point you're pretty much forcefully overriding a basic parameter that's been hardwired into every species since forever. Now depending on a persons circumstances that takes a lot of will. Though this may not be true for those who do it impulsively, but I shouldn't judge... Perhaps that sounds insensitive of me?

Second: Even if suicide was cowardly (not saying it is) why does it matter? Why does "cowardice" as a concept even exist? Because it shouldn't. Cowardice means to avoid situations that are challenging or scary. It's used negatively to imply there's something wrong with being scared, or not wanting to go through hard times. But who says we've got to endure every last ounce of pain? If a herbivore sees a predator it runs away, but we don't call it cowardly. The prey does so because it doesn't want to be ripped apart and face a lot of pain. It's called "not wanting to suffer". Yet we're the only species that seemingly stigmatizes this type of behaviour among our own kind. This points to cowardice being a man-made concept.

Plus wanting to CTB is similar to the herbivore and predator example - except they take it a step further. They're not even wanting to avoid pain just find relief. They're not cowardly running away from their fears, but running towards peace. They're not "giving up", but knowing that it's time to stop. There's a difference.

holy shit you wrote this so well, i agree with everything you've said. you put it into words way better than i could've (: glad to see so many people sharing my POV

 

[Sprite_Geist]

It's too bad we can only give one react, or that reacts can't be weighted, because I want to like and love and wow and hug the fuck out of this post.

Thank you for this particular gift: I'm not giving up, it's just time to stop what I am not capable of stopping otherwise.

If anything, I'm maintaining what I do not want to give up, the self that I like, respect, and honor. The Stoics approved of suicide for maintaining one's dignitas, their sense of self, and their virtue. If conditions prohibit one from maintaining their virtue, it is, to them, wise to exit from the conditions, including ill health, poverty, madness, and being under the power of tyrants.

Thanks so much for the kind words!

You have an interesting take on this topic like with the Stoic view that you mentioned. From what you say it sounds like they wished to leave the world as what they perceived as the "best" version of themselves? Like finishing a movies story with a positive resolution.

wish i knew people as open as those (,:


holy shit you wrote this so well, i agree with everything you've said. you put it into words way better than i could've (: glad to see so many people sharing my POV

Thank you for the comment. To be honest I'm supprised - didn't think I wrote it that well... Thanks again!

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

From what you say it sounds like they wished to leave the world as what they perceived as the "best" version of themselves? Like finishing a movies story with a positive resolution.

Yes!

Sharing below some quotes from Seneca that respond. Interestingly, he wished to suicide before he was given the choice for a punishment. He didn't sooner because of his Stoic ethic of responsibility to others, which carried more weight in making his decision.



"It is with life as with a play: what matters is not how long it is, but how good...Leave off where you choose; just be sure to give it a good ending."



"[A] life is not incomplete if it is honorable. Wherever you leave off, provided you leave off nobly, your life is a whole."



"You ask what the finest life span would be? To live until you reach wisdom. The one who gets there has arrived, not at the farthest goal, but at the most important. That man, indeed, may boldly congratulate himself, and give thanks to the gods – and to himself along with them – and count in his reckoning with the universe the fact that he has lived. His account will be in credit: he has given it back a better life than he received."



From an article by William Englert: Seneca advised to "die as one ought: 'virtuously, sensibly, and courageously.'"