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Do you think you have seen the two realities of our world and ourselves for what they are?

  • Yes

    Votes: 41 65.1%
  • No

    Votes: 5 7.9%
  • I don’t know wtf you are talking about.

    Votes: 17 27.0%

  • Total voters
    63
Snake of Eden

Snake of Eden

“Ye shall be as gods..🍎 🐍”
Jun 22, 2021
2,473
Many people who are suicidal have seen the fabric of the veil of life's reality ripped open for them and once they have peeked through it they cant not unsee it. Not everyone who see through the ripped veil of reality becomes suicidal but surely they become wiser and more grounded as a result. But I understand that being suicidal or depressed could be related to cause and effect through seeing life for what it is without any sugar coating it or excusing it to oneself. I'd like to hear from your experiences or ideas about this subjective phenomena
 
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L

Ligottian

Enlightened
Dec 19, 2021
1,014
I definitely believe in depressive realism.
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,913
Nobody can see reality as it is, the very act of seeing or thinking about something entails a representation of such thing. Just because you see the dark or futile side of reality doesn't mean those seeing the meaningful and pleasant side are not seeing reality.

Depression is a feeling, not an opinion. Many people try to beautify their sadness or anhedonia as an intellectual position but in my opinion feelings come first and rationalizations later. This is exactly why schizophrenics feel fear first and then craft persecutory tales later.
 
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N

Natty

Student
Jul 27, 2020
138
I think there is absolutely a "cat's out of the bag" moment for quite a few people. I think this is the case for cerebral and emotionally connected people, like Bourdain.

Also, I don't think this is necessarily a one-size-fits-all type of situation. I think the veil can be lifted to reveal a number of truths. One big one I've seen gain traction recently is the realization that working isn't a process of bettering yourself, but merely a transaction of labor that ultimately deteriorates one's quality of life to increase the quality of life for a select few.

I don't agree with the idea that there are only two realities though, I think it might hinder the point you're trying to make a bit.
 
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fatefulstillness

fatefulstillness

ghost.
Oct 24, 2021
151
I don't think two people see and experience the same reality. I don't even believe a person sees one reality twice. The need of the existence of a Truth is a human construct and just another way to approach reality on its own.
 
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Snake of Eden

Snake of Eden

“Ye shall be as gods..🍎 🐍”
Jun 22, 2021
2,473
Nobody can see reality as it is, the very act of seeing or thinking about something entails a representation of such thing. Just because you see the dark or futile side of reality doesn't mean those seeing the meaningful and pleasant side are not seeing reality.
I suggest you try and think about this deeper
 
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Chinaski

Chinaski

Arthur Scargill appreciator
Sep 1, 2018
3,473
Many people who are suicidal have seen the fabric of the veil of life's reality ripped open for them and once they have peeked through it they cant not unsee it. Not everyone who see through the ripped veil of reality becomes suicidal but surely they become wiser and more grounded as a result. But I understand that being suicidal or depressed could be related to by cause and effect to seeing life for what it is without any sugar coating it or excusing it to themselves. I'd like to hear from your experiences or ideas about this subjective phenomena
I'm not keen on this line of thinking personally, for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, it assumes a superiority on the part of the suicidal, an intellectual narcissism which isn't founded or grounded in reality. Many people enjoy life, and why shouldn't they? There's enough of it to like, and these people haven't hoodwinked themselves into doing so. Even the most grating, nauseating optimist is aware of death, they'll couch this optimism in twee phrases and rhetoric ("you only have one life, make the most of it" / "you're only young once", and other twee crap which still acknowledges the grim end). It's fine to acknowledge that we're not *wrong* in taking a different view, but this position propels the suicidal as the possessor of superior insight which is not strictly accurate imo.

Secondly, and l mean no offence when l say this, but our view is warped. Our experiences, usually very negative ones, are usually the things which drive us here, rather than any inherent philosophy. It's impossible imo to lump the suicidal into one block, a single demographic criteria, when there are myriad drivers to suicide. A suicidal individual creeping into middle aged who suffers from a debilitating and chronic pain condition will very probably have absolutely nothing in common with a suicidal virgin in their early twenties, other than that suicidality. There often is no shared philosophy even within the suicidal community, their desire for death is the same only in terms of outcome.

Finally, the impulsive v rational suicide comes into play here. Ultimately the root trigger is often "I would rather be dead than suffer anymore" in both cases, but many impulsive suicides are driven by external or societal triggers. If a person commits suicide impulsively because their partner leaves, or because they are in deep grief, on a higher philosophical plane? Is a person in heavy debt, or struggling with a physical or mental illness for which they've received inadequate treatment intellectually superior and the possessor of greater insight than those who are able to live without such debilitating burdens? I really don't think so tbh.
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,913
I suggest you try and think about this deeper
Why do you think that for example, people that fall in love, want to breed and are happy are not seeing reality? Just like a dog, they sense a limited portion of reality and it keeps them content. They aren't deluded in this regard.

It might be true that depressed or pessimistic people are seeing more than them, but equating normalcy and happiness with delusion seems far-fetched. Are animals deluded?
 
FuneralCry

FuneralCry

Just wanting some peace
Sep 24, 2020
43,338
I believe that wanting suicide is perfectly rational in a world like this. The truth is that life is just a pointless unnecessary experience that we go through for the sake of it and that life is mostly just pain and suffering. I believe that if someone sees life as anything else, they are delusional. Even if someone has a life that is going well and they have had good luck all their life, this can all quickly change. Just the fact that so much pain exists is enough to make me want to leave.
 
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N

Nightmare Painting

Student
Dec 16, 2021
121
There's only one reality but people with different backgrounds will perceive and experience it differently. "Happy" people are just fortunate enough to have not experienced such profound suffering in their personal lives that their perception of the world will always point towards optimism. I take back my word on another thread and would label it ignorance over delusions. Normies perception of reality is generally based on their personal circumstances; not on the things external to them. People who have been through some of the worst things imaginable will have more awareness of how bad things are even outside of their circumstances.

Normies can ignore someone being abused, murdered, or committing suicide on a news story and go back to watching cat memes because it isn't happening to them. If ignorance isn't enough then denial is; pretending that those things will never happen to them makes the world acceptable in their eyes. I'm kind of rambling at this point while barely conscious and without a goal in mind (basically my entire life lol) but I'll leave it with this quote that applies to your question:

"I don't think there's a motive, atleast not one that is operating at a conscious level, per-se. People in any civilization are inculcated with a set of beliefs just as members of a cult - they are raised with a rather static lens they are taught is the "correct" way to experience, perceive, and make sense of reality; this can be something as simple as "things fall down because of gravity", to "money is a very important pursuit in life", or "communism is evil". Taught repeatedly both explicitly and implicitly, one begins to lose themselves in these messages, and the differentiation between "self" and this static perception becomes very fluid - an attack on this perception, even in the form of a piece of information that creates a stark juxtaposition, triggers a fear response, much like that of an animal encountering a predator. The idea is, we may have incredibly advanced technology, but we still operate psychologically at the level of tribespeople; we become incredibly attached to cultural belief systems the same way we attach to our mothers and fathers as children, even if they abuse and berate us.

This comes to the heart of the problem, in my mind. Our cultural apparatus no longer seems to have answers for us, and the chase of money, status, materialism, et al - the hollow idolatry of late capitalism - is failing writ large to satiate our existential fears, if in large part because the system pumping it out has become so corrupt and inequitable that it is losing its legitimacy, and with it, its ability to hold us under the "civilized" spell. But even so, you have billions who have been raised to believe in its wicked fairy tale, to see and judge themselves and others through its objectifying, atomizing, reductionistic lenses, and for the most part know no other way to perceive reality. This is a large part of why "mental illnesses", suicide, and childlessness have skyrocketed and continue to - these are perhaps natural reactions to perceiving reality accurately, beyond any cultural spell.

This said, how does one continue to exist in a world that is not only rapidly changing for the worse - where an extinction crisis is looming large not so far over the horizon, where one is more likely than ever to be socially isolated, exposed to toxic levels of pollution, live in a terribly unhealthy fashion, work an unrewarding, mundane job that barely pays enough - and NOT want to kill yourself, or at the very least be chronically depressed?

Well, the answer, which also includes the answer to your question, is to double-down and become even more insane in the ways of the culture. The role of culture itself is transcendence - to deny death itself and give life a sense of permanency; culture becomes the self and the self becomes culture, but by becoming so intertwined, one becomes a part of its hypervigilant immune system. The problem is, no one really benefits from this arrangement in the long run; but in the short run, the constant denial of reality keeps one in a state of blissful, willfully ignorant cognitive dissonance. To anyone not insane in the ways of our culture, anthropogenic climate change is the Sword of Damocles hanging over life itself, making everything we need to do to sustain life in modern civilization seem absurdly Sisyphisean.

And yet, the denial of reality serves a dual purpose - it allows one to sink into learned helplessness, and it allows one to avoid the existential crises that come with awakening to the fact they are utterly codependent and individually helpless (much like an abused child who ultimately conforms to its treacherous parents' whims, once it realizes they're the hand that feeds and it has nobody else). To illustrate, right now it is estimated some 60% of the world's population lives near a coastline, with nearly 2.4 billion people living and working within 100km, and some 634 million living only 10m above sea level. The majority of these individuals live in the mega-cities that themselves are the major arteries of modern civilization. These cities are neither sustainable nor self-sufficient, and depend on a fragile global logistics chain to continue functioning.

Imagine yourself to be a decently well-off middle class resident in one of these coastal regions, or cities. You have an advanced degree and a great white collar job - let's say you're a family practice physician at a small doctor's office and although you don't save much, you do make ends meet, have an alright social life, overall things don't seem too bad. You never struggle to put food on the table, you're relatively happy with your life, more or less. You feel "successful" in the eyes of your culture because of the two letters after your name, the size of your paycheck, the fact you "own" your property and a nice car from the last 5 years. You're the envy of your less fortunate friends and peers, who are struggling in the gig economy and paying $1100 for a bunk bed in a small room; they look at you and tell you, "you've made it, man!" - its a similar admiration you experience with the opposite sex, who perk up after you mention your career. So, things seem relatively stable in your life. Economic crises seem to come and go, the world seems to be getting scarier by the day but you don't notice much - sure, groceries are always getting more expensive and the packaged goods keep shrinking, sure, you keep seeing friends from your peer group drop off the map or appear in obituaries you scroll past on Facebook, regardless more and more of them are speaking openly of their "mental health" struggles, and sure, people seem to be driving a little crazier, more of your patients are uninsured or on Medicaid, and the weather seems to be more chaotic than ever. But for the most part, you get up in the morning, get dressed and drive to work like everyone else, and although you can't dismiss this tickle in the back of your mind that something isn't quite right, your life seems rewarding enough to keep the tickle repressed. You might get a surge of anxiety now and then - or maybe that's just another pothole on the slowly degrading, neglected highway you take to work, but eventually you forget it until the next time, and the next.

The point is, if you live in any measure of comfort like the above story, belief in the status quo IS your "self", it not only enables your life, it provides you a stable sense of identity and status. To consider climate change is to collapse that lens upon itself, reveal it as a dream, an illusion, and with it, everything you have come to see as fixed and rigid and sensible about your life, every answer you've ever had to those late night existential questions that keep you up. It is to awaken to the stark reality you are a helpless cog in a massive mechanism, who operates a machine you don't understand, that runs on a fuel you can't create yourself, to work a job that is only possible because of a global logistics chain, to shop at a grocery store full of food and drink from who knows where, made by who knows who, to return to your domicile in the evening powered by who knows what from who knows where - all you know is as long as you keep your bills paid, the lights will magically turn on, the food stays cold in your fridge, and you can veg out to the latest sitcom on Netflix after a long day at work. Besides, what could you really do about rising sea levels or a splitting polar vortex, individually?

If we return to the story, imagine yourself that person again - and you've brought up similar subjects with your friends, or your professional-class colleagues, but they tell you you're being a downer, so you eventually drop it, and maybe even begin doubt it's even real or that it matters at all. "The scientists will figure it out," you tell yourself, clutching the Bible that's actually a cellphone streaming the latest climate denial or techno-hopium to your eyes, as you drift off to a dreamless sleep. Anyway, you've got work in the morning and the clocks always ticking and the bills aren't gonna pay themselves.

It's far easier to accept the one reality that is farcical and mundane and be united with your atomized peers in that, to feel the power your status and money grants you, to do the steps of the dance of "normality" - than to stand completely alone in the other reality, in which you are a dependent child in an adult's body, subsisting in a world that is not only bewildering and complex beyond your imagination, but utterly terrifying and unpredictable beneath it all. In that reality there are no answers, only the fact that there doesn't seem to be a place for you in it, and your life is virtually unimaginable without the forms of modern civilization - the grocery stores, the gas stations, cars, two day shipping, fire and police departments. Most would sooner forget that is the world that is threatened and fading than imagine living in a world without it." -Stranger from the internet
 
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Snake of Eden

Snake of Eden

“Ye shall be as gods..🍎 🐍”
Jun 22, 2021
2,473
There's only one reality but people with different backgrounds will perceive and experience it differently. "Happy" people are just fortunate enough to have not experienced such profound suffering in their personal lives that their perception of the world will always point towards optimism. I take back my word on another thread and would label it ignorance over delusions. Normies perception of reality is generally based on their personal circumstances; not on the things external to them. People who have been through some of the worst things imaginable will have more awareness of how bad things are even outside of their circumstances.

Normies can ignore someone being abused, murdered, or committing suicide on a news story and go back to watching cat memes because it isn't happening to them. If ignorance isn't enough then denial is; pretending that those things will never happen to them makes the world acceptable in their eyes. I'm kind of rambling at this point while barely conscious and without a goal in mind but I'll leave it with this quote that applies to your question:
Yes there is only one all encompassing reality that occurs in our mind for the both subjective reality of ourselves that we feel and think, and the objective reality we perceive through our senses .
 
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Mashedout

Mashedout

Student
Nov 25, 2020
126
Ultimately none of us know anything important here. Everyone is making up stories that best fit their agenda. We can make decisions on the information we currently have but that doesn't mean they would be the correct ones when the full picture is revealed.

Zoom out theory. Think of the awareness of a bacteria. Zoom out. Think of the awareness of an ant. Zoom out. Think of the awareness of your dog. Zoom out. Think of your own limited awareness. Why do you think this is the final zoom out level? We could easily be unware of larger things around us as the lower levels where. Think of a dog walking through a library. What could it possibly understand about what a book is an all it contains let alone all the organisms on the lower levels.
 
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Snake of Eden

Snake of Eden

“Ye shall be as gods..🍎 🐍”
Jun 22, 2021
2,473
Ultimately none of us know anything important here. Everyone is making up stories that best fit their agenda. We can make decisions on the information we currently have but that doesn't mean they would be the correct ones when the full picture is revealed.

Zoom out theory. Think of the awareness of a bacteria. Zoom out. Think of the awareness of an ant. Zoom out. Think of the awareness of your dog. Zoom out. Think of your own limited awareness. Why do you think this is the final zoom out level? We could easily be unware of larger things around us as the lower levels where. Think of a dog walking through a library. What could it possibly understand about what a book is an all it contains let alone all the organisms on the lower levels.
Of course there is definitely no complete or perfect awareness of reality thats why I said we can only take a "peek" but that tiny peek behind the vail makes the most possible profound difference in our limited comprehension and we can safely say we know much better than we ever known once this happened. In other words it is truly life changing and thats enough and our understanding of all things never will cease evolving or changing shape. Also we can use self-deceit in away to deny what we saw in order to preserve our inner equilibrium if the truth we discovered is clashing with our preferred world view. Humans are truly complex beings afterall
 
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WoAiGou

WoAiGou

Stalinist
Dec 16, 2021
186
Why do you think that for example, people that fall in love, want to breed and are happy are not seeing reality? Just like a dog, they sense a limited portion of reality and it keeps them content. They aren't deluded in this regard.

It might be true that depressed or pessimistic people are seeing more than them, but equating normalcy and happiness with delusion seems far-fetched. Are animals deluded?
Animals in the wild lack the agency that human beings have, not really a fair comparison. It is undoubtedly delusion that people think this state of the world and this direction is sustainable, bringing children to suffer that reality and thinking they will be shielded is delusion.
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,913
Animals in the wild lack the agency that human beings have, not really a fair comparison. It is undoubtedly delusion that people think this state of the world and this direction is sustainable, bringing children to suffer that reality and thinking they will be shielded is delusion.
I was talking in general, of course that thinking our current society isn't going to become a nightmarish utopia and then collapse or suffer a multitudinous purge is delusional.

I meant in the general sense of fulfilling instincts and just being a normal human being (or just being content). I'm not sure if it's fair to say that joyful people are delusional and only the suicidal are enlightened. Many here in this forum, including me, are known to have a distorted view of themselves and the world.
 
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Snake of Eden

Snake of Eden

“Ye shall be as gods..🍎 🐍”
Jun 22, 2021
2,473
I meant in the general sense of fulfilling instincts and just being a normal human being (or just being content). I'm not sure if it's fair to say that joyful people are delusional and only the suicidal are enlightened. Many here in this forum, including me, are known to have a distorted view of themselves and the world.
Sincerely seeking the truth is liberating for those who can master the art of consolidating their different or seemingly opposing understandings of all encompassing reality. Ignorance maybe a bliss but then you risk the chance of total shattering of world view which can take some people into very imbalanced state and some may not even survive it. The world can only survive for so long on being blissfully ignorant until inevitably shit will hit the fan at some point because the macro level of outer reality isnt limitless nor our conscious minds are limitless.
 
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Somber

Somber

Arcanist
Jan 6, 2022
457
I think one can be a scientist with a background in quantum physics but without suffering from suicidal thoughts and realize that we as a species know precious little about the fabric of reality. I would go further and argue that anyone giving into extensive philosophizing would come to a similar conclusion, regardless of their mental state or background.

The notion that being suicidal grants one somehow superior insight into the nature of existence can only be supported by the assumption that suicidal people have more time for philosophy than those whose minds are focused on more enjoyable endeavours. But I doubt time is a commodity that every suicidal person has in spades.
 
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Rabhen

Rabhen

Isolated Loner
Dec 17, 2021
147
I'm not keen on this line of thinking personally, for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, it assumes a superiority on the part of the suicidal, an intellectual narcissism which isn't founded or grounded in reality. Many people enjoy life, and why shouldn't they? There's enough of it to like, and these people haven't hoodwinked themselves into doing so. Even the most grating, nauseating optimist is aware of death, they'll couch this optimism in twee phrases and rhetoric ("you only have one life, make the most of it" / "you're only young once", and other twee crap which still acknowledges the grim end). It's fine to acknowledge that we're not *wrong* in taking a different view, but this position propels the suicidal as the possessor of superior insight which is not strictly accurate imo.

Secondly, and l mean no offence when l say this, but our view is warped. Our experiences, usually very negative ones, are usually the things which drive us here, rather than any inherent philosophy. It's impossible imo to lump the suicidal into one block, a single demographic criteria, when there are myriad drivers to suicide. A suicidal individual creeping into middle aged who suffers from a debilitating and chronic pain condition will very probably have absolutely nothing in common with a suicidal virgin in their early twenties, other than that suicidality. There often is no shared philosophy even within the suicidal community, their desire for death is the same only in terms of outcome.

Finally, the impulsive v rational suicide comes into play here. Ultimately the root trigger is often "I would rather be dead than suffer anymore" in both cases, but many impulsive suicides are driven by external or societal triggers. If a person commits suicide impulsively because their partner leaves, or because they are in deep grief, on a higher philosophical plane? Is a person in heavy debt, or struggling with a physical or mental illness for which they've received inadequate treatment intellectually superior and the possessor of greater insight than those who are able to live without such debilitating burdens? I really don't think so tbh
 
Mr2005

Mr2005

Don't shoot the messenger, give me the gun
Sep 25, 2018
3,621
I'm not keen on this line of thinking personally, for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, it assumes a superiority on the part of the suicidal, an intellectual narcissism which isn't founded or grounded in reality. Many people enjoy life, and why shouldn't they? There's enough of it to like, and these people haven't hoodwinked themselves into doing so. Even the most grating, nauseating optimist is aware of death, they'll couch this optimism in twee phrases and rhetoric ("you only have one life, make the most of it" / "you're only young once", and other twee crap which still acknowledges the grim end). It's fine to acknowledge that we're not *wrong* in taking a different view, but this position propels the suicidal as the possessor of superior insight which is not strictly accurate imo.

Secondly, and l mean no offence when l say this, but our view is warped. Our experiences, usually very negative ones, are usually the things which drive us here, rather than any inherent philosophy. It's impossible imo to lump the suicidal into one block, a single demographic criteria, when there are myriad drivers to suicide. A suicidal individual creeping into middle aged who suffers from a debilitating and chronic pain condition will very probably have absolutely nothing in common with a suicidal virgin in their early twenties, other than that suicidality. There often is no shared philosophy even within the suicidal community, their desire for death is the same only in terms of outcome.

Finally, the impulsive v rational suicide comes into play here. Ultimately the root trigger is often "I would rather be dead than suffer anymore" in both cases, but many impulsive suicides are driven by external or societal triggers. If a person commits suicide impulsively because their partner leaves, or because they are in deep grief, on a higher philosophical plane? Is a person in heavy debt, or struggling with a physical or mental illness for which they've received inadequate treatment intellectually superior and the possessor of greater insight than those who are able to live without such debilitating burdens? I really don't think so tbh.
This site needs you more than you need it
 
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Rabhen

Rabhen

Isolated Loner
Dec 17, 2021
147
Your 'Firstly' is absurdly erroneous. Not only does it NOT assume some superiority on the part of the suicidal, or the one to whom the veil has been ripped open it takes an actual learning and enlightening process by one person and allows another person to dismiss that experience as irrelevant. That blatant dismissal rather seems more intellectually narcissistic.
IMHO it smacks of:
A toddler sticks it's hand onto the stove reaching for something to eat. The stove is hot and the toddler pulls thier hand back, blowing and saying 'hot'.
Now, to me, I can see how a learning experience that revealed something has occured.
The 'Firstly' person seems to argue that because they were not there and cannot prove that stove was actually hot, the toddler could not possibly have learned anything and to assume the toddler learned anything, especially for the toddler itself to assume they have learned anything, is akin to intellectual narcisscism. Meaning the toddler has no right to claim they learned the stove was hot because doing so somehow signifies them as superior and there are no grounds in reality that a toddler learning anything makes them superior.
 
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NeverReallyHere

NeverReallyHere

Student
Mar 15, 2021
106
If an individual is driven to self-harm or self-annihilation by societal triggers, then why is it assumed to be the individual who is "warped" and not the society?
 
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N

Natty

Student
Jul 27, 2020
138
Firstly, it assumes a superiority on the part of the suicidal, an intellectual narcissism which isn't founded or grounded in reality. Many people enjoy life, and why shouldn't they?

I don't think OP is assuming the reality they describe is the same for everyone, just that one's own personal reality can have a veil lifted that doesn't allow them to see the world/reality/whatever in the way they once did.

Unless I'm missing something OP is merely describing becoming jaded by a series of events/experiences but on a scale that makes it difficult for one to cope.

I think you're reading into things a little too much.
 
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Somber

Somber

Arcanist
Jan 6, 2022
457
I don't think OP is assuming the reality they describe is the same for everyone, just that one's own personal reality can have a veil lifted that doesn't allow them to see the world/reality/whatever in the way they once did.

Unless I'm missing something OP is merely describing becoming jaded by a series of events/experiences but on a scale that makes it difficult for one to cope.

I think you're reading into things a little too much.
I think it was meant to be read into more than you seem to believe, but maybe @Snake of Eden can clarify.
 
N

Natty

Student
Jul 27, 2020
138
I think it was meant to be read into more than you seem to believe, but maybe @Snake of Eden can clarify.

I mean if you guys are sitting here searching for epistemologically sound points on the nature of objective reality from a suicide forum, then no matter how well-written your counter arguments you can't be that smart lmao
 
Somber

Somber

Arcanist
Jan 6, 2022
457
I mean if you guys are sitting here searching for epistemologically sound points on the nature of objective reality from a suicide forum, then no matter how well-written your counter arguments you can't be that smart lmao
Never said I was either 🙃
 
N

Natty

Student
Jul 27, 2020
138
Never said I was either 🙃

I was speaking to the general "you", meaning the people who took the time to respond to this. I can very obviously tell you're not smart. Sorry for the confusion.
 
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Chinaski

Chinaski

Arthur Scargill appreciator
Sep 1, 2018
3,473
Your 'Firstly' is absurdly erroneous. Not only does it NOT assume some superiority on the part of the suicidal, or the one to whom the veil has been ripped open it takes an actual learning and enlightening process by one person and allows another person to dismiss that experience as irrelevant. That blatant dismissal rather seems more intellectually narcissistic.
IMHO it smacks of:
A toddler sticks it's hand onto the stove reaching for something to eat. The stove is hot and the toddler pulls thier hand back, blowing and saying 'hot'.
Now, to me, I can see how a learning experience that revealed something has occured.
The 'Firstly' person seems to argue that because they were not there and cannot prove that stove was actually hot, the toddler could not possibly have learned anything and to assume the toddler learned anything, especially for the toddler itself to assume they have learned anything, is akin to intellectual narcisscism. Meaning the toddler has no right to claim they learned the stove was hot because doing so somehow signifies them as superior and there are no grounds in reality that a toddler learning anything makes them superior.
Tbh l generally avoid the "philosophy of suicide" threads because it nearly always devolves into an arid expanse of a discussion which veers away from the experience of suicidality as l recognise it and becomes a high-fallutin churn of "normie sheeple don't see the truth" chat. As someone with a tendency to over-think and be overly-analytical l still blanch at much of what's being said here because it's going too deeply into what essentially boils down to *I feel like shit*. I sincerely doubt the majority of successful suicides are carried out after a lengthy pipe-sucking pontification upon discovering some hidden truth, but maybe this is skewed by my own experience.
 
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Snake of Eden

Snake of Eden

“Ye shall be as gods..🍎 🐍”
Jun 22, 2021
2,473
I sincerely doubt the majority of successful suicides are carried out after a lengthy pipe-sucking pontification upon discovering some hidden truth, but maybe this is skewed by my own experience.
is our sole aim for being on this website is to collaborate in figuring out the secret formula for finally beating suicidal instinct and other preventing factors? My aim for this discussion wasnt like that at all. I am sorry if I said something to mislead you or anyone who thought so. I respect people may have a desire to figure out a type of mindset that makes beating SI an easier effort but I think until then lets indulge in all the possible ways that makes us unique as suicidals to normies.
 
whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,913
I was speaking to the general "you", meaning the people who took the time to respond to this. I can very obviously tell you're not smart. Sorry for the confusion.
I hope that insulting people gratuitously will attract the threatening stare of moderators. If it doesn't, I will know that I can say whatever I want.
 
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Chinaski

Chinaski

Arthur Scargill appreciator
Sep 1, 2018
3,473
is our sole aim for being on this website is to collaborate in figuring out the secret formula for finally beating suicidal instinct and other preventing factors? My aim for this discussion wasnt like that at all. I am sorry if I said something to mislead you or anyone who thought so. I respect people may have a desire to figure out a type of mindset that makes beating SI an easier effort but I think until then lets indulge in all the possible ways that makes us unique as suicidals to normies.
Tbh my view of 'SI' probably differs from most on this website in that l don't see it as a kind of external force which must be defeated - "survival instinct" is very different from not feeling completely ready to die imho. There is nothing wrong with the latter, l too find myself in that excruciating limbo between preferring to not wake up in the morning and not being able to make the one last push, but this is something within which is greater than an instinct, it's conscious. My own view is that we'd be more honest in discussing it in these terms rather than shaking our collective fists at that "goddam survival instinct" , out to thwart us at every turn, but I'm veering off topic here (apologies!) and that's probably a separate discussion.

Again, l also suspect the majority of suicides as described in earlier posts haven't needed to bolster themselves with a philosophical underpinning in order to do the deed, but again my perspective is weighted heavily by my own experiences. If the premise of the thread is to indulge our differences as opposed to the majority of people who do not entertain suicidality that's probably fair imo, but as stated above it's based on the notion that the suicidal "community" are a distinct and unified bloc, and not a completely disparate subset with myriad drivers and motivators.
 
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