Venting struggling with guilt and i'm being "forced" into different treatments

[beelzebul]

this is going to be a mess but i need to vent to someone/anyone who isn't a friend or family.

my mom has found out about ayahuasca via online and thinks it could help me, so we went to a retreat in ecuador last month to try it together. she had an intense trip and all i experienced was insane nausea that lasted for a week. i didn't trip at all, and to make matters worse, the facilitator scolded me in front of the entire group.

the previous day we did a long hike into the jungle to a waterfall. it was excruciatingly painful, as i have really bad legs. the hike was worth it in the end, because the water was cold and it was beautiful. it felt good being submerged in water after such a hard hike. the hike back was pretty bad too and by the end of it, i was exhausted. the facilitator brought that up.

he said "you went on the hike yesterday and it was hard, wasn't it?"
i said "yes, but it's not the same. i had something to look forward to"
and he interrupted me and said (shouted) something along the lines of "SELFISH! selfish, selfish, selfish. your mom being happy isn't something to look forward to?"

and i completely shut down. everyone was staring at me. i was totally fucking humiliated. my mom was beside me in the circle crying and i couldn't say anything.

but really i feel fucked up about it. he's right in the sense that no, my mom being happy isn't something to look forward to. other people's happiness doesn't trigger any kind of depression-killing happiness in me. maybe it should? when other people are happy, i'm like... good for them? but what about me? do i have to suck everything up and be miserable just so other people won't be? how is that FAIR?

i've spent 28 years on this planet, 29 in january, and i've wanted to die for 16 of them. my moms are desperate to fix me, because they know i'm nearing my breaking point. i was hospitalized for an attempt earlier this year. as normal medication is no longer working (and hasn't worked for years), we're moving on to plant medicine.

after my experience at the first retreat, i'm dreading going to the second one. the first didn't help me, and i told my moms that i think it's a waste of money, but they won't hear it. they won't let me give up, even though i have long since given up. i'm going to costa rica next month to, once again, focus on trauma and try ayahuasca. i'm exhausted even thinking about it. i don't want to go. i don't want to get better. i just want to sleep. forever. i'm so tired.

i feel forced to do these things even though i'm almost 30. i live with them and i'm totally incapable of taking care of myself so it's not like i can just... move out. even if i did move out, the guilt wouldn't go away. they worry about me day and night, every waking minute. i'm their son, of course they are. but i don't want all this.

i'm sorry, i'm just so tired. they went out of town last weekend and i was so close to offing myself. i wrote letters for them and notes for my (2) friends. i recorded an audio message for them too... but i couldn't do it because of the guilt. i'm so fucked up over this lmao

 

[anhed0nia]

I'm so sorry to hear what you've had to go through, that's awful. I realize your moms must be feeling pretty desperate and maybe this all comes from a good place for them, but they're putting you through something insanely heavy that has already failed once. For this to be a helpful experience you really need to have a strong personal motivation and a willingness to embrace the extreme challenge that ayahuasca can present, it's really unfair for you to be railroaded into this. I guess I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but I sympathize!

I had my own absurd ayahuasca experience some years ago. I was at the end of my rope with my mental health and I approached the experience with deep seriousness. I met one other person at the retreat who seemed to be in a similar situation, possibly his chronic depression was even more severe than mine actually. We had both used other psychedelics to self-medicate, with some amount of success, and we were feeling very hopeful. I had an incredibly heavy trip, but I wouldn't say it was "healing" at all, it was just very abstract and intense. My friend had the same experience you did, at least for that day; he was violently ill with no experience of altered consciousness at all. From the way other people spoke afterward, I got the suspicion that a lot of people didn't experience anything like a "trip". I don't take all this to be an indictment of ayahuasca itself, in fact I think I would try it again under different circumstances, with different people. Needless to say it's not great to be forced to be that vulnerable in a situation where you already feel judged and threatened, that's a classic recipe for a bad time. I hope your parents can see the light somehow.

I'll add one thing that could be helpful, please forgive me if you're already well aware of this: If you are on an SSRI or anything in that neighborhood, it could be suppressing your reaction to the psychoactive component of ayahuasca. Things like LSD and mushrooms work poorly or not at all when taken along with medication that affects your serotonin. If you're medicated as such and it's dangerous for you to be off your meds for any period of time, I'd avoid psychedelics. Besides the diminished efficacy of the psychedelics, there is also the risk of a dangerous affliction called serotonin syndrome. I would hope that anyone running an ayahuasca retreat would aprise guests of these issues, but if they sound unfamiliar to you, go ahead and google them. Maybe you will discover some amunition for the argument with your moms. In any case, I feel for you, and I wish you the best of luck!

 

[Ash’Girl]

I don't even know what ayahuasca is, but I wanted to say this: it's absolutely abhorrent that the facilitator would shout at you like this, at all, but even worse in front of a crowd.

You are not selfish. You are suffering. Despite suffering, you did something to try to feel better. If it didn't work, it's not something to scream at you about. Well done for trying.

Sounds honestly like the facilitator is probably just pissed that their magical method they probably advertise as a life fix or something did not actually magically "fix" you.

I don't begrudge anyone happiness however they can find it, but oftimes others happiness just highlights my own lack thereof, which tends to make me feel worse.

Anyway, you are not selfish, again. And I'm sorry this happened to you.

 

[Rogue Proxy]

There is no need to apologize. That "facilitator" should be ashamed of himself for humiliating, shaming, guilt-tripping, and invalidating you. You are not obligated to be positive, strong, energetic, mentally well, or take pleasure in other people's joys. As for selfishness, every single organism on this planet is selfish. Some forms of selfishness are necessary and inevitable. In the case of that Ecuadoran retreat, that pompous asshole of a "guru" was needlessly and egregiously self-absorbed for refusing patience, empathy, and compassion for you. Unfortunately, not all mental conditions can be cured, treated, or managed. Chronic mental health conditions can be just as insufferable and disabling as chronic physical conditions.

 

[beelzebul]

I'll add one thing that could be helpful, please forgive me if you're already well aware of this: If you are on an SSRI or anything in that neighborhood, it could be suppressing your reaction to the psychoactive component of ayahuasca. Things like LSD and mushrooms work poorly or not at all when taken along with medication that affects your serotonin. If you're medicated as such and it's dangerous for you to be off your meds for any period of time, I'd avoid psychedelics. Besides the diminished efficacy of the psychedelics, there is also the risk of a dangerous affliction called serotonin syndrome. I would hope that anyone running an ayahuasca retreat would aprise guests of these issues, but if they sound unfamiliar to you, go ahead and google them. Maybe you will discover some amunition for the argument with your moms. In any case, I feel for you, and I wish you the best of luck!

i've been off anti depressants for a few months now. i take pretty heavy sleep meds to treat insomnia. i literally can't sleep without them. in ecuador, i was off of them 4 nights prior to the ceremony. couldn't sleep a wink while i was there. i really do not have a choice with whether i go or not. i'm a financial and emotional drain on my moms. i have to get better. i have to do what they want me to. or i have to find the courage to end it.

for reference, they are my grandmoms (married) and they adopted me as their son (and they say this proudly, for some reason). both of my mom's real kids committed suicide (so my aunt and birth mom). both of them. me taking my life would be unbelievably tragic for them. i'm struggling with the guilt... sometimes it is so heavy that i can't breathe. i feel so desperate and lost.

There is no need to apologize. That "facilitator" should be ashamed of himself for humiliating, shaming, guilt-tripping, and invalidating you. You are not obligated to be positive, strong, energetic, mentally healthy, or take pleasure in other people's joys. As for selfishness, every single organism on this planet is selfish. Some forms of selfishness are necessary and inevitable. In the case of that Ecuadoran retreat, that pompous asshole of a "guru" was needlessly and egregiously self-absorbed for refusing patience, empathy, and compassion for you. Unfortunately, not all mental conditions can be cured, treated, or managed. Chronic mental health conditions can be just as insufferable and disabling as chronic physical conditions.

thank you for this. you put my thoughts into words with this post.

I don't even know what ayahuasca is, but I wanted to say this: it's absolutely abhorrent that the facilitator would shout at you like this, at all, but even worse in front of a crowd.

You are not selfish. You are suffering. Despite suffering, you did something to try to feel better. If it didn't work, it's not something to scream at you about. Well done for trying.

Sounds honestly like the facilitator is probably just pissed that their magical method they probably advertise as a life fix or something did not actually magically "fix" you.

I don't begrudge anyone happiness however they can find it, but oftimes others happiness just highlights my own lack thereof, which tends to make me feel worse.

Anyway, you are not selfish, again. And I'm sorry this happened to you.

he is staunchly anti-suicide and doesn't like that i am suicidal. he hates that i have given up on life and don't value other people's happiness over my own. he told me i would be responsible if some little boy killed himself in the future because i wouldn't be there to stop him.

i think he's close minded, which is crazy because he was at one point suicidal and attempted. it's insane that he has no empathy for suicidal people.

 

[NappinHappening]

1

this is going to be a mess but i need to vent to someone/anyone who isn't a friend or family.

my mom has found out about ayahuasca via online and thinks it could help me, so we went to a retreat in ecuador last month to try it together. she had an intense trip and all i experienced was insane nausea that lasted for a week. i didn't trip at all, and to make matters worse, the facilitator scolded me in front of the entire group.

the previous day we did a long hike into the jungle to a waterfall. it was excruciatingly painful, as i have really bad legs. the hike was worth it in the end, because the water was cold and it was beautiful. it felt good being submerged in water after such a hard hike. the hike back was pretty bad too and by the end of it, i was exhausted. the facilitator brought that up.

he said "you went on the hike yesterday and it was hard, wasn't it?"
i said "yes, but it's not the same. i had something to look forward to"
and he interrupted me and said (shouted) something along the lines of "SELFISH! selfish, selfish, selfish. your mom being happy isn't something to look forward to?"

and i completely shut down. everyone was staring at me. i was totally fucking humiliated. my mom was beside me in the circle crying and i couldn't say anything.

but really i feel fucked up about it. he's right in the sense that no, my mom being happy isn't something to look forward to. other people's happiness doesn't trigger any kind of depression-killing happiness in me. maybe it should? when other people are happy, i'm like... good for them? but what about me? do i have to suck everything up and be miserable just so other people won't be? how is that FAIR?

i've spent 28 years on this planet, 29 in january, and i've wanted to die for 16 of them. my moms are desperate to fix me, because they know i'm nearing my breaking point. i was hospitalized for an attempt earlier this year. as normal medication is no longer working (and hasn't worked for years), we're moving on to plant medicine.

after my experience at the first retreat, i'm dreading going to the second one. the first didn't help me, and i told my moms that i think it's a waste of money, but they won't hear it. they won't let me give up, even though i have long since given up. i'm going to costa rica next month to, one again, focus on trauma and try ayahuasca. i'm exhausted even thinking about it. i don't want to go. i don't want to get better. i just want to sleep. forever. i'm so tired.

i feel forced to do these things even though i'm almost 30. i live with them and i'm totally incapable of taking care of myself so it's not like i can just... move out. even if i did move out, the guilt wouldn't go away. they worry about me day and night, every waking minute. i'm their son, of course they are. but i don't want all this.

i'm sorry, i'm just so tired. they went out of town last weekend and i was so close to offing myself. i wrote letters for them and notes for my (2) friends. i recorded an audio message for them too... but i couldn't do it because of the guilt. i'm so fucked up over this lmao

1.facciliator sounds like a dick
2. Try first kambo before trying ayahuasca honestly. Aya is great but sometimes its not right time for her

 

[beelzebul]

1


1.facciliator sounds like a dick
2. Try first kambo before trying ayahuasca honestly. Aya is great but sometimes its not right time for her

i'm extremely hesitant to try kambo because there is no science backing it as beneficial and i can't buy into the spiritual aspect of any plant medicine.

 

[NappinHappening]

i'm extremely hesitant to try kambo because there is no science backing it as beneficial and i can't buy into the spiritual aspect of any plant medicine.

I wont try to convince you.
But if you run out of options...

It helped me a lot and im pharmaco resistant , depressive , suicidal, addictied cunt who been throguh inpatient and all kinds of therapies.

Sorry for off topic! I aint gonna derail this post anymore

 

[NumbItAll]

Ayahuasca and psychedelics in general are risky and can be traumatic for some people so it is fucked up to be pressured/forced into that in the first place. On top of that you have nothing to feel guilty about. You are under no obligation to be grateful for suffering, and it is perfectly reasonable to want to experience a bit of joy for yourself and have something to look forward to. The ignorance and lack of empathy displayed by the facilitator are astounding. A lot of times treatment attempts make things worse because people want to impose their own views instead of trying to understand the individual.

 

[Rogue Proxy]

he told me i would be responsible if some little boy killed himself in the future because i wouldn't be there to stop him.

What the hell was that charlatan blathering about?! Unless you procreated, you are never responsible for anyone's choice to end their life. Sounds like he just pulled some guilt-inducing line right out of his self-righteous ass.

i think he's close minded, which is crazy because he was at one point suicidal and attempted. it's insane that he has no empathy for suicidal people.

Unfortunately, experiencing suffering doesn't always create or strengthen empathy. In fact, there are many who failed or ended their suicide attempt, latch onto optimism bias, and wrongfully conclude that anyone can love life again just like them. Optimism bias is one of the many examples of humans possessing limited and selective empathy.

 

[beelzebul]

What the hell was that charlatan blathering about?! Unless you procreated, you are never responsible for anyone's choice to end their life. Sounds like he just pulled some guilt-inducing line right out of his self-righteous ass.

it was really frustrating to sit there and listen to his self-righteous bullshittery. that was on the day i arrived while we were doing intake (basically asking some medical questions). he loves to hear himself talk and will take any opportunity to tell you about how many people he's helped and that he lives only to help people. everyone loves him, my mom included, but i felt like i was sitting in front of an abuser. he's insanely manipulative but no one else sees it... like i felt like i was losing my mind lmao.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Maybe @tiredplant777 can offer some insight. She is very familiar with the ayahuasca world. A lot of people in spiritual healing circles can be extremely toxic.

 

[SilentSadness]

That sounds nightmarish to me, what kind of "facilitator" says that in front of everyone.

 

[Painfu.Ll.suffering]

Final ayahuascanbefore going... Interested in becoming Mexican asap
@op opoore soul... Id liked ro force you a virtual hug how can i qualify to get the Mexican nationality? Currently Germany los4nnorth macedonian

 

[tiredplant777]

this is going to be a mess but i need to vent to someone/anyone who isn't a friend or family.

my mom has found out about ayahuasca via online and thinks it could help me, so we went to a retreat in ecuador last month to try it together. she had an intense trip and all i experienced was insane nausea that lasted for a week. i didn't trip at all, and to make matters worse, the facilitator scolded me in front of the entire group.

the previous day we did a long hike into the jungle to a waterfall. it was excruciatingly painful, as i have really bad legs. the hike was worth it in the end, because the water was cold and it was beautiful. it felt good being submerged in water after such a hard hike. the hike back was pretty bad too and by the end of it, i was exhausted. the facilitator brought that up.

he said "you went on the hike yesterday and it was hard, wasn't it?"
i said "yes, but it's not the same. i had something to look forward to"
and he interrupted me and said (shouted) something along the lines of "SELFISH! selfish, selfish, selfish. your mom being happy isn't something to look forward to?"

and i completely shut down. everyone was staring at me. i was totally fucking humiliated. my mom was beside me in the circle crying and i couldn't say anything.

but really i feel fucked up about it. he's right in the sense that no, my mom being happy isn't something to look forward to. other people's happiness doesn't trigger any kind of depression-killing happiness in me. maybe it should? when other people are happy, i'm like... good for them? but what about me? do i have to suck everything up and be miserable just so other people won't be? how is that FAIR?

i've spent 28 years on this planet, 29 in january, and i've wanted to die for 16 of them. my moms are desperate to fix me, because they know i'm nearing my breaking point. i was hospitalized for an attempt earlier this year. as normal medication is no longer working (and hasn't worked for years), we're moving on to plant medicine.

after my experience at the first retreat, i'm dreading going to the second one. the first didn't help me, and i told my moms that i think it's a waste of money, but they won't hear it. they won't let me give up, even though i have long since given up. i'm going to costa rica next month to, once again, focus on trauma and try ayahuasca. i'm exhausted even thinking about it. i don't want to go. i don't want to get better. i just want to sleep. forever. i'm so tired.

i feel forced to do these things even though i'm almost 30. i live with them and i'm totally incapable of taking care of myself so it's not like i can just... move out. even if i did move out, the guilt wouldn't go away. they worry about me day and night, every waking minute. i'm their son, of course they are. but i don't want all this.

i'm sorry, i'm just so tired. they went out of town last weekend and i was so close to offing myself. i wrote letters for them and notes for my (2) friends. i recorded an audio message for them too... but i couldn't do it because of the guilt. i'm so fucked up over this lmao

Woah wtf. Okay the behaviour of this facilitator is disgusting. Can I ask what retreat centre this was? Even if you do Ayahuasca again please at least do not go back to this place. I have used Ayahuasca to help me, and it has, but yeah a lot of people who do it and lead ceremonies are some of the worst people I have ever met. Not everyone is like this, but it can attract a lot of people who crave power, which sounds like this abusive facilitator. It may be worth going to a more reputable centre, though I know it is hard to know before going. There are great people who work with the medicine too, but this is really bad. I can personally attest to Ayahuasca helping me a lot despite these people, and I truly believe that you can only really get genuine help from the medicine if you are around people who can respect and support you in a genuine way. I have also been traumatized by those I did ceremonies with and even though I have decided to continue with this path I do so in a more solitary way now. Obviously I am still a visitor to this forum but overall I have been seriously helped. If you have a chance to go to a good centre I would say take it and see what happens. Where are you going to in Costa Rica? I am so so sorry this happened.

 

[beelzebul]

Woah wtf. Okay the behaviour of this facilitator is disgusting. Can I ask what retreat centre this was? Even if you do Ayahuasca again please at least do not go back to this place. I have used Ayahuasca to help me, and it has, but yeah a lot of people who do it and lead ceremonies are some of the worst people I have ever met. Not everyone is like this, but it can attract a lot of people who crave power, which sounds like this abusive facilitator. It may be worth going to a more reputable centre, though I know it is hard to know before going. There are great people who work with the medicine too, but this is really bad. I can personally attest to Ayahuasca helping me a lot despite these people, and I truly believe that you can only really get genuine help from the medicine if you are around people who can respect and support you in a genuine way. I have also been traumatized by those I did ceremonies with and even though I have decided to continue with this path I do so in a more solitary way now. Obviously I am still a visitor to this forum but overall I have been seriously helped. If you have a chance to go to a good centre I would say take it and see what happens. Where are you going to in Costa Rica? I am so so sorry this happened.

after a long discussion with my mom (still can't tell my moms that i don't want to try at all) we've decided that we're going to try making it at home instead of shelling out thousands of dollars for something that may not even work (again). of course, she didn't mention the money. she just wants me to get better. but the money is a huge problem for me because they are the ones paying for it. the previous one was around 2k for one of my moms and me, not including our 3 night stay in quito, plane tickets, and ride to the center and back. it's just too much for so much uncertainty, and the place i was going to go to next (Rythmia) is like nearly 8k for a single person.

the retreat is Sacha Wasi in ecuador. absolutely fell in love with ecuador. it's beautiful everywhere. the mountains are insane and they have fields for farms all up the sides of them. the car ride to puyo was absolutely stunning. banos was adorable and i'd love to stay there on a vacation one day.

the retreat itself was ROUGH. no ac (to be expected in the jungle), dirty fucking bamboo huts, no personal fans for any of the guests, and there were free-roaming pitbulls and pit mixes all on the island. i don't hate pitbulls by any means, but i am definitely one of those "they shouldn't be pets" people. they're too dangerous for the everyday person to own and too dangerous to just be freely roaming around the island. to make matters even worse, i witnessed some kichwa kids (like 14-17 year old teens) abuse the white pit in front of us. they whipped the poor thing with a stick and hit him closed-fist when he got too close to them (and from my pov, it really just looked like he wanted to be close to them). not only was there physical abuse, the were just straight up neglected. they were malnourished as fuck and totally flea-ridden. it was heartbreaking to see these animals in this condition. we brought it up to the volunteers there and their response was "no, they're not malnourished, they're really loved here" which... fine, but can you explain HOW they're loved? because they literally fucking weren't. eventually we lightly mentioned it to scott, and he really had nothing to say about it. it was just, "oh that happened? hm, okay." and we moved on. i don't know about you, but animal abuse is not conducive to good mental health. it was actually a mental drain seeing these abused animals.

 

[tiredplant777]

after a long discussion with my mom (still can't tell my moms that i don't want to try at all) we've decided that we're going to try making it at home instead of shelling out thousands of dollars for something that may not even work (again). of course, she didn't mention the money. she just wants me to get better. but the money is a huge problem for me because they are the ones paying for it. the previous one was around 2k for one of my moms and me, not including our 3 night stay in quito, plane tickets, and ride to the center and back. it's just too much for so much uncertainty, and the place i was going to go to next (Rythmia) is like nearly 8k for a single person.

the retreat is Sacha Wasi in ecuador. absolutely fell in love with ecuador. it's beautiful everywhere. the mountains are insane and they have fields for farms all up the sides of them. the car ride to puyo was absolutely stunning. banos was adorable and i'd love to stay there on a vacation one day.

the retreat itself was ROUGH. no ac (to be expected in the jungle), dirty fucking bamboo huts, no personal fans for any of the guests, and there were free-roaming pitbulls and pit mixes all on the island. i don't hate pitbulls by any means, but i am definitely one of those "they shouldn't be pets" people. they're too dangerous for the everyday person to own and too dangerous to just be freely roaming around the island. to make matters even worse, i witnessed some kichwa kids (like 14-17 year old teens) abuse the white pit in front of us. they whipped the poor thing with a stick and hit him closed-fist when he got too close to them (and from my pov, it really just looked like he wanted to be close to them). not only was there physical abuse, the were just straight up neglected. they were malnourished as fuck and totally flea-ridden. it was heartbreaking to see these animals in this condition. we brought it up to the volunteers there and their response was "no, they're not malnourished, they're really loved here" which... fine, but can you explain HOW they're loved? because they literally fucking weren't. eventually we lightly mentioned it to scott, and he really had nothing to say about it. it was just, "oh that happened? hm, okay." and we moved on. i don't know about you, but animal abuse is not conducive to good mental health. it was actually a mental drain seeing these abused animals.

Oh wow 8k is insanely priced. I have heard good things about Soltara retreat centre. You may also be able to find an Ayahuasca group in your area. I would personally caution against doing it on your own as it is spiritually deep work that I believe does require a good shaman. However I am not one to judge either and I would be interested to hear how your solo experience goes. I have done ceremony with an abusive shaman and alone is better than that at least. I also wonder if you could just do mushrooms? I find mushrooms to be a very underrated tool, they have helped me immensely also and are a lot safer to do alone. They are more sustainable, they literally cannot be over harvested. One thing is that making Ayahuasca at home also can result in a weaker brew or something that doesn't really work. I would definitely try mushrooms first if you can, but of course do what you feel is right for you.

Oh Ecuador sounds so beautiful! Yeah I also don't think pitbulls should be pets, I had a really bad experience with one once too. That is really sad those dogs were abused and neglected, that sucks all around. Yeah I would have had a really hard time seeing that with the dogs.

I really hope you can find something that helps you. I am sorry again that retreat experience was so negative.