Society still screwed up. We haven't figured out how to raise girls.

[rebelsue]

I think in the 80s and 90s, there was a well-meaning attempt to give young girls a role model that wasn't a housewife or a bimbo. Forget the fact that we managed to denigrate housewives with this effort. We also managed to fuck up the role model part, too.

Could we have a movie character, doll, or celebrity that had flaws? No we cannot. Because humans love their gods and myths. We love hero stories and extraordinary tales. We just couldn't put it down for one second. The female role models I grew up with were flawlessly perfect. Instead of replacing housewifery and beauty with other traits, they just added things on. So not only did you have to look like you're 20 forever, you also have to do it after having two kids, and raise them without making any mistakes, and have an amazing power career, and a talent, and be brilliant, and also somehow still nice to everyone and really likable?

Yes, it's great that Computer Programmer Barbie exists. But can we make her ugly, too? Can we tell young girls it's okay to be mediocre? Can I watch a movie with a female lead who isn't perfect? Can she be good at singing, but also be a little overweight and not sassy and confident about itand that's just how the story ends? Where she never gets her moment to shine and prove everyone wrong? Can she be attractive, but kind of boring? Can she be really smart, but broke and kind of bad at relationships and maybe not very pretty either? Can we have a show about a girl who is really unremarkable in every way but still has people who love her? Nope, because who would watch that show? I guess I would, but I guess that's the case in point for why I don't fit in anywhere and never have.

Can we look up to women who work hard, but don't necessarily become famous? It is up to us to seek these people out. If people on their own actively tried to look for ordinary people and see what kinds of things they were up to, instead of searching for gods and hero myths, we wouldn't need marketers. We wouldn't need segmentation and targeted ads forcing us to pay attention to things. Artists wouldn't need to sell their souls just to earn a living doing what they love because they wouldn't need record labels and advertising firms to make people aware that they exist. They would just be found on their own.

This is not a well formulated opinion. I am just really sad. I want to be enough as I am.

 

[BabyYoda]

Most likely to appeal to the male gaze.

I hate myself for being the way I am just because I'm not conventionally "attractive". Only reduces my chances of getting a partner, that's all.

 

[deadpixels]

I agree, and I think it's not just about girls, we don't know how to raise boys as well. In fact, I don't think our society knows how to raise anyone.

 

[rankinchris]

I don't think its fair to say we don't know how to raise girls...or as another person stated boys. So its unfair to say we don't know how to raise children. That is wrong to say that as there is millions of people world wide who do a dam good job of raising there children, and know how to do it.

As kids get older, they start to think for themselves, so if someone wants to get dolled up with makeup etc...who is the parents to say no ? They would be on a site like this saying about how controlling there mum and dad is.
The world is changing, and so are children with it... its nothing to do with the parents ability to "raise girls".

I have a girl myself and yes I know the day will come when shes going out make-up shopping, getting her nails etc done. But if it makes her happy then who am I to say you shuldnt be doing that, you should be accepted the way you are.

I personally think you have just been around the wrong people and watch too much TV if you think like this.

You said "can we make her ugly "...its comments like that which make people go and be a "barbie" because there is people who think of them as ugly !

So you have totally contradicted yourself and insulted a hell of a lot of people by saying they don't know how to raise girls

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

For two letters, "we" is such a powerful word. It both includes and excludes. It empowers and disempowers, sometimes simultaneously, and I think the OP (the post, not the person) unintentionally does this.

As an American woman, I empathized with the OP. I felt that "we" -- as a part of the "we" who has been hurt by culture, and as a part of the culture's "we" that is responsible. I physically felt a heaviness and sadness, as if I, too, had been dominated and had no power.

Then I read @rankinchris's response in which he did not feel included in the same "we." At first I physically bristled. I felt misunderstood and attacked. Then I remembered how much I dislike when someone uses the word "we" to represent me as part of a group like a community such as SS, or the greater community of a culture. I fight back and say, "Don't include me in your 'we,' don't speak for me with a 'we,' and don't triangulate power for a position by invoking 'we,' because I am part of the same group and I disagree with that position." So I have more compassion for where @rankinchris was coming from, and I'm no longer offended.

If I look at the OP from this perspective of "we," I see more than one layer of hurt she may be feeling. There is the "we" of being a female who has not been empowered, in spite of supposed attempts by the culture and media to have done so, and in fact feels even more burdened by the efforts. Then there is the collective ownership of cultural responsibility, so by saying "we" screwed up, I get a sense that she feels like she holds some responsibility for this, yet another burden. I think that the word "we" falsely empowers her while simultaneously disempowers her.

I'mma get on my academic wagon for a minute. I hope you can bear with me. I'll do my best to explain it well, because when I learned this, it greatly impacted me, and it directly relates to the OP as well as the idea of "we."

Roland Barthes's 1960s book Mythologies uses a variety of examples to illustrate how dominant upper class culture (the bourgeoisie) uses symbols via advertising, movies, music, etc. to normalize agendas for the entire culture, to make them desirable, and to manufacture agreement, so that it seems everyone is going along because the agenda is "right" - the agendas are front and center, and yet the symbols are manipulated to twist things and hide the true agendas -- this is the power of myth. It is a form of language. It uses regular language like "we," or the language of an image, such as Rosie the Riveter or a L'Oreal model or Barbie. (One example in the book was of a French magazine photo of an Algerian youth military member saluting the French flag. It made it seem that Algerians agreed to French occupation, and stirred up the patriotic feelings of French citizens, so that they felt morally "right" about and empowered as a culture by the domination.)

The symbols may stir up feelings of, say, patriotism or gender equality, and feelings are powerful motivators, so they are stirred up intentionally, but again, the symbols are used in such a way that they both try to hide an agenda while simultaneously putting it front and center, making the myth seem more real than reality. The OP saw the myth of Women's Lib, and sees the underlying reality -- women had to take on even more burdens and were not really liberated at all.

Women's lib is a myth. Barbie is a myth. Gender equality is a myth. Yes, boys are getting screwed, too. Movies, toys, advertising, etc. all play into these myths to keep us hopeful and compliant, and those who wake up to it generally don't have the power to do shit about it.

"We" didn't get it wrong, "we" got played, and because we at the bottom weren't told what we were agreeing to, there is an underlying manipulation that we are responsible and had some say in it, some ability to have impacted the outcome. In a case like the OP's pain, those who were unknowingly manipulated by how such culturally-disseminated symbols were used may feel they're accountable for any social problems caused by them, even as they're oppressed by them.

It's the blame an abuser puts on a victim after having tricked them: "Well, you went along with it. You wanted it. It's your fault."

 

[FusRohDracarys]

I agree, and I think it's not just about girls, we don't know how to raise boys as well. In fact, I don't think our society knows how to raise anyone.

Inclined to agree. I often hear people say they hope they have a son because "boys are easier." The amount of grown men I've known and been friends with who are staggeringly incompetent at taking care of themselves or functioning as independent adults leads me to believe "boys are easier" is an excuse for lazy parenting. Especially when said incompetence is shrugged off as "boys will be boys." I could go on about how boys are also emotionally neglected in many cases, but I'll stop there so as not to derail the thread.

Girls get the short end of the stick because not only are they expected to function on all the levels OP describes, but adult women are also expected to compensate for their boyfriend's/husband's/partner's ignorance. But thanks to the feminist movement, I think we're a lot more comfortable calling out unfair conditions or expectations for women than we are with even acknowledging those of men.

 

[rankinchris]

Inclined to agree. I often hear people say they hope they have a son because "boys are easier." The amount of grown men I've known and been friends with who are staggeringly incompetent at taking care of themselves or functioning as independent adults leads me to believe "boys are easier" is an excuse for lazy parenting. Especially when said incompetence is shrugged off as "boys will be boys." I could go on about how boys are also emotionally neglected in many cases, but I'll stop there so as not to derail the thread.

Girls get the short end of the stick because not only are they expected to function on all the levels OP describes, but adult women are also expected to compensate for their boyfriend's/husband's/partner's ignorance. But thanks to the feminist movement, I think we're a lot more comfortable calling out unfair conditions or expectations for women than we are with even acknowledging those of men.

Regarding your second paragraph, how is this due to a parents inability to " raise a girl " which op has stated

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

It's interesting to me that every time there is a thread on this site where someone complains about their position from a standpoint on a binary spectrum -- female, male, beautiful, ugly -- there is an equal opposite that rises up and feels left out, spoken against, has it equally bad or worse, etc. One person cries out about their pain, and someone else says, "You're getting it wrong. You're wrong."

It's like the Black Lives Matter movement -- someone feels excluded, someone else also experiences pain, and says "ALL lives matter." The pain that instigated the complaint gets minimized, invalidated, or re-defined.

Those who are in pain are, by default, disempowered, and the cry of pain that identifies the issue is like a magnet that draws opposition and further disempowerment. The magnet draws the metal shavings, it has the control.

It's as if someone who was kicked and knocked unconscious has the nerve to wake up, speak up, and try to stand up...and somebody's gotta knock them back down right quick. Those who do the knocking back down think they're good people, too, they have a sense of justice and rightness, there's no way they are being abusive or hurtful...it's just that the person who was hurt doesn't know what the eff they were talking about or experienced, and they need it explained to them.

 

[rankinchris]

It's interesting to me that every time there is a thread on this site where someone complains about their position from a standpoint on a binary spectrum -- female, male, beautiful, ugly -- there is an equal opposite that rises up and feels left out, spoken against, has it equally bad or worse, etc. One person cries out about their pain, and someone else says, "You're getting it wrong. You're wrong."

It's like the Black Lives Matter movement -- someone feels excluded, someone else also experiences pain, and says "ALL lives matter." The pain that instigated the complaint gets minimized, invalidated, or re-defined.

Those who are in pain are, by default, disempowered, and the cry of pain that identifies the issue is like a magnet that draws opposition and further disempowerment.

It's as if someone who was kicked and knocked unconscious has the nerve to wake up, speak up, and try to stand up...and somebody's gotta knock them back down right quick. Those who do the knocking back down think they're good people, too, they have a sense of justice and rightness, there's no way they are being abusive or hurtful...it's just that the person who was hurt doesn't know what the eff they were talking about or experienced, and they need it explained to them.

Yes but as op has stated society still screwed up and don't know how to raise girls is just ridiculous lol how she feels is nothing to do with a parents ability to raise there child, maybe its the way she feels towards her parents but to paint everyone with the same brush is insane

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Yes but as op has stated society still screwed up and don't know how to raise girls is just ridiculous lol how she feels is nothing to do with a parents ability to raise there child, maybe its the way she feels towards her parents but to paint everyone with the same brush is insane

@rankinchris, there are many things you've posted that I have had to old myself back from judging you as insane for saying or thinking or doing. My reactions to you were my problem, I did my best to work on my problems and not blame you for the fact that I experienced them. Your reactions to what the OP wrote are your problem, and by labeling, it seems to me that you're trying to make her the problem. Like you're having a knee-jerk reaction and your foot needs something to connect with. Do you see what I'm saying?

 

[FusRohDracarys]

It's interesting to me that every time there is a thread on this site where someone complains about their position from a standpoint on a binary spectrum -- female, male, beautiful, ugly -- there is an equal opposite that rises up and feels left out, spoken against, has it equally bad or worse, etc. One person cries out about their pain, and someone else says, "You're getting it wrong. You're wrong."

It's like the Black Lives Matter movement -- someone feels excluded, someone else also experiences pain, and says "ALL lives matter." The pain that instigated the complaint gets minimized, invalidated, or re-defined.

Those who are in pain are, by default, disempowered, and the cry of pain that identifies the issue is like a magnet that draws opposition and further disempowerment.

It's as if someone who was kicked and knocked unconscious has the nerve to wake up, speak up, and try to stand up...and somebody's gotta knock them back down right quick. Those who do the knocking back down think they're good people, too, they have a sense of justice and rightness, there's no way they are being abusive or hurtful...it's just that the person who was hurt doesn't know what the eff they were talking about or experienced, and they need it explained to them.

A good observation. I actually saw this thread a few days ago and declined comment because of that very reason--my knee-jerk reaction was to say "yeah but, it sucks for boys, too." While I do believe that's true, I think OP was more looking for validation and empathy than discussion so I declined comment at the time. However, a lot of these issues are intricately weaved together and perhaps instead of addressing them as separate issues, we, as a society, would be more effective at change if we looked at them holistically. Not to negate OP's pain, as everyone should have an open forum to express themselves. But from a solution-oriented approach, perhaps these things should be discussed together. Just a thought.

 

[rankinchris]

@rankinchris, there are many things you've posted that I have had to old myself back from judging you as insane for saying or thinking or doing. My reactions to you were my problem, I did my best to work on my problems and not blame you for the fact that I experienced them. Your reactions to what the OP wrote are your problem, and by labeling, it seems to me that you're trying to make her the problem. Like you're having a knee-jerk reaction and your foot needs something to connect with. Do you see what I'm saying?

What exactly have I posted which is "insane"...judge away I don't partiulary give a fuck to be fair what you think I don't know you. My reactions to OP is not my problem, its my view that shes labelling as she has said " society" which also includes YOU that they don't know how to raise there child

 

[deadpixels]

It's interesting to me that every time there is a thread on this site where someone complains about their position from a standpoint on a binary spectrum -- female, male, beautiful, ugly -- there is an equal opposite that rises up and feels left out, spoken against, has it equally bad or worse, etc. One person cries out about their pain, and someone else says, "You're getting it wrong. You're wrong."

It's like the Black Lives Matter movement -- someone feels excluded, someone else also experiences pain, and says "ALL lives matter." The pain that instigated the complaint gets minimized, invalidated, or re-defined.

Those who are in pain are, by default, disempowered, and the cry of pain that identifies the issue is like a magnet that draws opposition and further disempowerment. The magnet draws the metal shavings, it has the control.

It's as if someone who was kicked and knocked unconscious has the nerve to wake up, speak up, and try to stand up...and somebody's gotta knock them back down right quick. Those who do the knocking back down think they're good people, too, they have a sense of justice and rightness, there's no way they are being abusive or hurtful...it's just that the person who was hurt doesn't know what the eff they were talking about or experienced, and they need it explained to them.

Being the first one to diverge from the topic here, I feel guilty, maybe I shouldn't have written a short comment with too much room for different interpretations.
I didn't want to make any sort of opposition, I think that we all grow in a world with too much expectations, social roles and competition and when we grow without meeting those expectations, we become detached from society, and we often suffer from it.

I naively thought that people would "join up" instead of opposing each other, now I hope this thread doesn't go downhill because of me...

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

The OP closed with this:

This is not a well formulated opinion. I am just really sad. I want to be enough as I am.

What exactly have I posted which is "insane"...judge away I don't partiulary give a fuck to be fair what you think I don't know you. My reactions to OP is not my problem, its my view that shes labelling as she has said " society" which also includes YOU that they don't know how to raise there child

I don't join in your offense about the OP.

My impression is that you don't recognize my perspective in either post in which I mentioned or quoted you, and so to you it is invalid. I accept that. It would be the wisest choice for me to disengage as I think we'd just stay stuck if I tried to clarify further, and I walk away from the experience with no ill will toward you. It happened, I'm moving past it now. I wish you the best.

A good observation. I actually saw this thread a few days ago and declined comment because of that very reason--my knee-jerk reaction was to say "yeah but, it sucks for boys, too." While I do believe that's true, I think OP was more looking for validation and empathy than discussion so I declined comment at the time. However, a lot of these issues are intricately weaved together and perhaps instead of addressing them as separate issues, we, as a society, would be more effective at change if we looked at them holistically. Not to negate OP's pain, as everyone should have an open forum to express themselves. But from a solution-oriented approach, perhaps these things should be discussed together. Just a thought.

I hear what you're saying and have respect for your perspective.

My response is this: If an entire house has been damaged by a storm, it needs a lot of work to be habitable. Yes, one needs to look at the whole house as the ultimate goal, but is a burst pipe any less valid than the structure? Doesn't it require specialized attention? Should the guy who replasters the wall in another room feel like the issue he is focusing on needs equal and immediate attention as the burst pipe? Should the foreman throw up his hands and say it's all fucked, or tell the plumber to stop focusing on the pipe that's flooding the whole structure and go help the plasterer?

Yes, it all matters, yes, there needs to be coordination, and sometimes the coordinator needs to focus on one issue for a while before others can be addressed. This doesn't mean the plumber and foreman alike don't recognize the pipe isn't part of the a whole structure, or think that it's the most important one.

The other points you bring up also matter. They can be addressed in separate threads, anyone can start one. They weren't the issue crying out for help, but if they are now, an appropriate space can be made to address them, rather than minimizing or overshadowing the issues in this post. And then one day in the glorious future, when each separate issue has seen progress, there can be a megathread that brings all the issues together for total resolution and integration.

That's my perspective at the moment.