Should Russians take collective guilt and full responsibility for Putin's warcrime?

[unkuto]

I'll start by saying that I'm from Russia and this war has brought lots of suffering and pain to me. This war brought me to this forum in the first place looking for a way to escape this nightmare by finding my peaceful exit.

But I would like to discuss a bit different topic. I'm interested to discuss your guys view about collective guilt and collective responsibility of Russian people for this war, warcrimes and genocide.
I'm not talking about Putin, his government, generals and soldiers. But rather regular people.
I've seen a lot western people (and even own Russian "opposition" that talks from outside of Russia) is trying to put on everyone a label of collective responsibility saying we are to blame for Putin's crime because we did nothing for last 22 years trying to ignore what's going on political scene and just trying to live our lives. Because of that we all are going to pay a price when Putin's regime is going to fall and everyone including even those who never supported Putin in the first is going to pay really big price. Because there wouldn't any realistic way to make a different and put a line between those who is against this regime and who isn't.
The first example that comes to my mind is Germany after WW2 where people took not just collective guilt but also collective responsibility.

What do you guys think? Should collective guilt and collective responsibility be considered as different concepts or in this case they should be viewing together as one?

 

[Life_and_Death]

I don't understand why the people should. Everyone is their own individual and no one can see the future. If they knew he was going to start a war and still said "sure let's have him in power" then yeah, I'd blame them. But for the most part the people aren't in the streets screaming "blow those fuckers up" so I don't understand why they should be blamed. The general Russian population is suffering as well just different.
A good YouTube channel that I can't remember the name of but I think the persons name is Roman, I'm not sure but theyve been sharing the Russian view. He even had to leave the country because of what's going on. I feel sad for the Ukrainians and Russians. Neither of these people asked for their governments to be children. When voted someone in, you vote what you can only hope to be the best of the worst. The people of both countries don't want this war and they are both suffering. I don't see how in anyway the people can be blamed for 1 man's actions.
Every time someone commits a crime should we throw the whole family in jail just for knowing them? No, why is this any different?

 

[DeutscheKartoffel]

Racism has the characteristics of generalising people into groups.
That's what it is.

It's sad, but we've seen that happen in western countries all the time.
An earlier example comparable would be asian hate crimes because of covid.

Both disappointing, but unsurprising to me.
Western societies tend to blame people when it's convenient.
During WW2, following pearl harbour attack,
80,000 Americans with Japanese ancestry were segregated from society,
forcibly relocated and incarcerated in internment camps on west coast of US.

 

[Lost Magic]

I think a lot of Russians are just scared, brainwashed sheep tbh. A lot of them are scared to protest in case they get locked up or even killed. They are living in a dictatorship state run by a mafioso like tyrant. It must be scary to be more and more isolated from the rest of the world. But there is no justification for the Russian soldiers committing genocide on the people of Ukraine and blaming the Ukrainian army for doing so. This is just pure evil and they all need to be brought to war tribunals. All this division, death and destruction because of the ego of the war criminal Vladimir Putin. The Military and the people of Russia should try to oust him before he gets any madder.

 

[onlyanimalsaregood]

I think a lot of Russians are just scared, brainwashed sheep tbh. A lot of them are scared to protest in case they get locked up or even killed. They are living in a dictatorship state run by a mafioso like tyrant. It must be scary to be more and more isolated from the rest of the world. But there is no justification for the Russian soldiers committing genocide on the people of Ukraine and blaming the Ukrainian army for doing so. This is just pure evil and they all need to be brought to war tribunals. All this division, death and destruction because of the ego of the war criminal Vladimir Putin. The Military and the people of Russia should try to oust him before he gets any madder.

Agree

 

[Apathy79]

I think it's a mistake to blame the people for the actions of their government. Especially in countries where changing the government is not within the power of the people anyway. I feel similarly about the Chinese government as I do about the Russian government. But it doesn't alter how I feel about the Chinese or Russian people one iota. If I was in charge of immigration, Chinese and Russian people fleeing persecution for criticising their governments would be front of the queue.

I think you're right that the Russian people will suffer because of their government in this case. There's no avoiding it. But I wouldn't attach guilt to it. It's the price paid for living in the wrong place at the wrong time. Chalk it up to bad luck.

 

[DynamicDepression]

No, generalizing people is never a good thing. There are many Russians who are for the way and there are many Russians who are against the war. Should one side suffer only because the other side is indoctrinated by a life of propaganda?

 

[Quinlor]

What war crimes? You've been watching too much western media fakenews.War is war, dead man is just a dead man. I am of Russian descent and I am ashamed of this war but there is no good and bad side. I hope the war ends soon and Russia be the winner. Fuck the Nazis of maidan and azov!

 

[houseofleaves]

What war crimes? You've been watching too much western media fakenews. War is war, dead man is just a dead man. I am of Russian descent and I am ashamed of this war but there is no good and bad side. I hope the war ends soon and Russia be the winner. Fuck the Nazis of maidan and azov!

So you, well, love the killings of civilians. Noted. And you think that Ukraine can't handle their supposedly existing nazis (Zelensky is of Jewish descent, Правый сектор party didn't get any places in parlament, etc), and Russia needs to intervene. Ok. Noted.

 

[Quinlor]

So you, well, love the killings of civilians. Noted. And you think that Ukraine can't handle their supposedly existing nazis (Zelensky is of Jewish descent, Правый сектор party didn't get any places in parlament, etc), and Russia needs to intervene. Ok. Noted.

Zelensky is just a pupped, who really controlls the Ukraine army is the nazi azov battalion. Ukraine massacred the civilian population of donbass for 8 years without any western media reporting. The war is sad for both sides.

 

[houseofleaves]

Ukraine massacred the civilian population of donbass for 8 years

[even if it happened] — and we should do the same thing, right? Noted.

 

[Quinlor]

[even if it happened] — and we should do the same thing, right? Noted.

No, of course not, war always is a shit.

 

[Foresight]

Are Russians in favor of this war? What is the feedback looking like from inside the offensive nation?

 

[JustSwingingTheD]

I'll start by saying that I'm from Russia and this war has brought lots of suffering and pain to me. This war brought me to this forum in the first place looking for a way to escape this nightmare by finding my peaceful exit.

But I would like to discuss a bit different topic. I'm interested to discuss your guys view about collective guilt and collective responsibility of Russian people for this war, warcrimes and genocide.
I'm not talking about Putin, his government, generals and soldiers. But rather regular people.
I've seen a lot western people (and even own Russian "opposition" that talks from outside of Russia) is trying to put on everyone a label of collective responsibility saying we are to blame for Putin's crime because we did nothing for last 22 years trying to ignore what's going on political scene and just trying to live our lives. Because of that we all are going to pay a price when Putin's regime is going to fall and everyone including even those who never supported Putin in the first is going to pay really big price. Because there wouldn't any realistic way to make a different and put a line between those who is against this regime and who isn't.
The first example that comes to my mind is Germany after WW2 where people took not just collective guilt but also collective responsibility.

What do you guys think? Should collective guilt and collective responsibility be considered as different concepts or in this case they should be viewing together as one?

Collective guilt, in a dictatorship?

The russian elite is responsible for the war, as they have directly caused it by supporting Putin, and their support actually matters. Russia is a corrupt, kleptocratic society. People who mostly end up in top of such a society are, and will always be, incapable of feeling guilt, best they can do is faking it. If you are asking whether the cream of the Russian society should be pretending feeling guilty right now, then yes, for their own good they should be.

As for the regular people, they don't know anything anyway, and even if they did, their opinions are next to worthless in a system like that.

Zelensky is just a pupped, who really controlls the Ukraine army is the nazi azov battalion. Ukraine massacred the civilian population of donbass for 8 years without any western media reporting. The war is sad for both sides.

How much do they pay you for spreading this shit?

 

[unkuto]

Are Russians in favor of this war? What is the feedback looking like from inside the offensive nation?

It's really hard to answer to this question because since this war began Russia blocked couple thousand of various websites that post news and real information about what is going on. They've blocked Twitter, instagram, facebook and actively blocking VPN's as well. The propaganda doesn't say a single truth word about what is going on and we are not even allowed to call war a "war" as according to recent law we can face up to 15 years in prison for that. People generally are just scared to voice their opinion. People who only watch TV, can't critically think and not looking for alternative sources of information are simple in dark and don't understand what is going on.
Putin been brainwashing people (especially older generation) for 22 years+ straight (add here also decades of USSR propaganda) so these older people are like zombies and nothing really going to fix them. If you begin to show them alternative information they just not going to believe you because that's just going to break their entire wolrdview, the picture propaganda been building in their heads for so many years and even decades. It's like if you've been told all your life that Earth is flat and then someone is going to tell you it's round would you believe this person? It's stupid comparison but I hope you get it. I'm not trying to justify them by any means but inability to critically think, propaganda and inability to access to different sources of information makes them easy victim of brainwashing machine. Older people are not that good and smart with new tech. If you are able to use internet I don't think they will able to figure out setting up VPN and stuff. English is also not that common among older gen.

There are certain % of brainwashed people mainly older people 40+ but I've seen many young people that still support Putin despite he ruined their life. Lots of people still doesn't understand coming consequences. But I think as soon as they begin to suffer, lose their jobs and their life would go downhill they would reconsider their views. It's hard to tell what % of people still support Putin because these part of population is really the loudest one. They put "Z" stickers on their car and actively shitpost online.

I personally believe most people are against Putin's regime but as I said the fear of repressions and persecutions forces them to keep their mouth shut and not say anything in public.

I have I friend who is 22 and before I used to consider him as a smart person and we hanged out a lot before this shit happened. We played videogames together, went out etc.
But this war completely changed him. He fully supports Putin, believes propaganda lies and he literally told me that if it comes to that he is willing to suffer and eat homeless cats but still going to support Putin. No arguments or words could convince him and I just stopped trying and cut contacts with him completely. It's pretty sad that people like that exist.

Lots of people who know and understand what is going are massively leaving Russia by thousands because they understand that piece of land is cursed and fucked for at least a century.

 

[Apathy79]

He might change. He's 22 and brainwashed. It happens. Particularly where truth is blocked and disagreement severely punished. It feels like the way of self-preservation. When that situation changes, and supporting Putin attracts mass condemnation, I suspect he'll change with it.

 

[Foresight]

What is the propaganda saying about this "operation"? As an American it's hard for me to gain full understanding because it's filtered through our media. Don't feel obligated to answer, I've just been trying to piece this together and I've never spoke to a Russian about it.

Are they saying this is a operation against Nazis? Is Zelensky considered a bad guy in the propaganda? I'm curious what is being pumped out internally in the media as Putin's mission here. Are Ukrainians painted as traitors and villians or as victims of a nazi problem?

I've been thinking a lot about how much Russians will suffer because of this. Obviously, Ukrainians are under harsh attack and they are the victims but the world will hopefully stand with them. The Russian people will be isolated and my heart goes out to you. I really hope the West can understand that Russians too are under deep oppression.

 

[whatevs]

lmao no, not at all. And Zelensky/Ukraine isn't completely blameless in how it has handled the war (sit down to talk and concede to the bigger guy instead of having your country ravaged) and the years of civil slaughter before hand because of separatism.

People of a country aren't all that responsible of what their criminal govts do. They are either against it, or are part of the brainless majority that will do as the news anchor says.

 

[unkuto]

What is the propaganda saying about this "operation"? As an American it's hard for me to gain full understanding because it's filtered through our media. Don't feel obligated to answer, I've just been trying to piece this together and I've never spoke to a Russian about it.

Are they saying this is a operation against Nazis? Is Zelensky considered a bad guy in the propaganda? I'm curious what is being pumped out internally in the media as Putin's mission here. Are Ukrainians painted as traitors and villians or as victims of a nazi problem?

I've been thinking a lot about how much Russians will suffer because of this. Obviously, Ukrainians are under harsh attack and they are the victims but the world will hopefully stand with them. The Russian people will be isolated and my heart goes out to you. I really hope the West can understand that Russians too are under deep oppression.

Propaganda just pours some bs like we are trying to save Ukraine from years os oppression under "nazis" and we are good guys. And that entire world is against us and wants to annihilate us with nukes. I don't understand how anyone believe that. According to propaganda all videos about genocide or war crimes are western fakes and deepfake video edits etc

 

[TotallyIsolated]

Sorry but, yes, I do think Russians should feel both guilt collectively and that you all share in culpability for the war.

I know that Russia isn't exactly a democracy but Putin does have popular support - something like 70% approve of him and his regime. Whether or not they're brainwashed, you can't deny that your fellow Russians are largely in favour of war in Ukraine, and of the genocide of thre Ukrainian people.

I know that some of you resist and that is commendable, but more needs to be done. There seems to be this attitude that corruption is somehow inevitable or that nothing can be done about it. I think its the pervasiveness of this idea - that Russians just reluctantly accept Putin and oligarchy, that is at least partly to blame for his having remained in power for so long.

I dont think there are any easy answers, and honestly I have no idea what I would do if I were in your position. Speak out and go to prison, or just lead a quiet life? Or just CTB I guess, as you said.

All I can say for sure is that the next few years are going to be very difficult for all of us, but for none more so than the people of Ukraine.

 

[Dysgenic Pup]

No. As soon as you justify blaming the citizens of a country for something their government does, Pandora's box is opened. It's ludicrous and dichotomous thinking. Imagine how many people don't want anything to do with politics and just want to live their life earning a living and providing for their family?

 

[houseofleaves]

Zelensky should sit down to talk and concede to the bigger guy instead of having his country ravaged

and that is one of the reasons why Zelensky is the president and you are not.

 

[WrongPlaceWrongTime]

I've seen a lot western people (and even own Russian "opposition" that talks from outside of Russia) is trying to put on everyone a label of collective responsibility saying we are to blame for Putin's crime

West: In Russia and China, people are punished for speaking against the state! (true)
Also West: Russians/Chinese don't speak out against the state, therefore they are complacent with its crimes and all deserve punishment (wtf)

 

[Manaaja]

While one person isn't much, I feel that if whole groups did it, it might help a bit. What is a country if not a collection of persons like sea is just water drops combined? It's kinda like how in school there might only be one bully, but if all the other students just stand there not interfering they are partially to blame for that bullying. Not a single person is to blame, but as a group they are. I can understand why an asperger person or a shy person won't do anything, but when there are social brave outspoken extroverts who don't open their mouths, it angers me. I recall reading a case where someone in Japan was raped and no one did anything because everyone thought "it's not my job to interfere".

But at the same time, blaming all Russians is wrong. There are pacifistic Russians, there are gay Russians, there are trans Russians, there are Russians that live in Siberia without television and won't even know there's a war.

So, it's not an individual's fault, but it's the group's fault in a way. If I fall down and hit my head and none of the ten people around me helps me, it's everyone's fault that I didn't get help. But if five people help me, then the five others don't have to help me and it's okay for them to walk away.

 

[houseofleaves]

i think if the Ukraine declared themselves neutral in terms of nato and us, the war would never have happened

Why isn't putin attacking Estonia and Latvia then?

 

[FractalTears]

Sorry i deleted my comment before seeing your reply.

Why isn't putin attacking Estonia and Latvia then?

They're already part of nato, attacking a nato country might be a reason for attacking russia, Ukraine hasn't joined nato yet but not sure tbh

 

[houseofleaves]

Sorry i deleted my comment before seeing your reply.

They're already part of nato, attacking a nato country might be a reason for attacking russia, Ukraine hasn't joined nato yet but not sure tbh

So if Ukraine joined nato, Putin wouldn't have attacked Ukraine?

 

[Cathy Ames]

Sorry i deleted my comment before seeing your reply.

They're already part of nato, attacking a nato country might be a reason for attacking russia, Ukraine hasn't joined nato yet but not sure tbh

@FractalTears why was your previous user name (apparently) "@fixthe26"?

 

[Quinlor]

Collective guilt, in a dictatorship?

The russian elite is responsible for the war, as they have directly caused it by supporting Putin, and their support actually matters. Russia is a corrupt, kleptocratic society. People who mostly end up in top of such a society are, and will always be, incapable of feeling guilt, best they can do is faking it. If you are asking whether the cream of the Russian society should be pretending feeling guilty right now, then yes, for their own good they should be.

As for the regular people, they don't know anything anyway, and even if they did, their opinions are next to worthless in a system like that.

How much do they pay you for spreading this shit?

You spread your shit and I'll spread mine. I don't give a shit if you believe me or not!

 

[Al Cappella]

So if Ukraine joined nato, Putin wouldn't have attacked Ukraine?

Absolutely he wouldn't have. Russia goes at it with NATO we're in WWIII I think. And Russia has crappy and almost no allies. They would get destroyed and he knows it. Today he's threatening nukes again if Finland joins. Thing is, there will be war, because P won't—and can't—quit.