Discussion Should parents only bring children into this world if they can afford to support them financially their entire lives?

[sserafim]

Yeah but that's a choice, too. And it is a bit funny if people complain they have to work so much. We can make ourselves to slaves of the capitalism but imo it's a choice to a certain degree. Maybe not in every country, I m obviously speaking of mine.

You have to be a slave to capitalism in order to survive though. You have to work to earn a living. Everything in this world costs money; nothing is free. It's not a choice, but rather an obligation and necessity (for survival).

 

[Meteora]

Edit: my grandma and aunt/cousins in Southern Italy were so poor when I was a child, they did not have running water, my cousins washed by hand because they had no washing machine. Sheets, towels, jeans, everything. My aunt would do field work in the blazing heat for $ 30 a day. They had no heating only a fire place in the kitchen.
They never complained..... and I admired them.

 

[Homo erectus]

Edit: my grandma and aunt/cousins in Southern Italy were so poor when I was a child, they did not have running water, my cousins washed by hand because they had no washing machine. Sheets, towels, jeans, everything. My aunt would do field work in the blazing heat for $ 30 a day. They had no heating only a fire place in the kitchen.
They never complained.....

Yes, I watched that in some Italian golden age movies. Maybe people were hopeful back then. It was post war. They were rebuilding and needed manpower. People found meaning in life.

Now the world is on the brink of ww3. The rich are getting richer. The poor are finding life more difficult. With social media influence, people focus on material goods. It is understandable that people want life insurance for a decent living standard.

 

[Oliver]

Yes, I watched that in some Italian golden age movies. Maybe people were hopeful back then. It was post war. They were rebuilding and needed manpower. People found meaning in life.

Now the world is on the brink of ww3. The rich are getting richer. The poor are finding life more difficult. With social media influence, people focus on material goods. It is understandable that people want life insurance for a decent living standard.

The only sane thing to do is to ctb immediately, if WW3 breaks out.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Edit: my grandma and aunt/cousins in Southern Italy were so poor when I was a child, they did not have running water, my cousins washed by hand because they had no washing machine. Sheets, towels, jeans, everything. My aunt would do field work in the blazing heat for $ 30 a day. They had no heating only a fire place in the kitchen.
They never complained..... and I admired them.

I do find this curious that, even if they do complain, I believe older generations feel or felt a stronger sense of obligation to comply. I notice the difference between my Dad and me and between him and my Grandparents.

My parents are terribly house proud. Even though he detests gardening, my Dad's always doing it because (apparently) you have to. I wonder if older generations are/were just more willing to accept how they 'should' live. My Grandpa was made redundant at one point and my Dad said it affected him deeply. I wonder if they even questioned it or felt like they had a choice. What else could have your relations breaking their backs in the fields done? What options did they have back then?

I wonder why it is they seemed more eager to comply. Maybe because they actually respected their politicians and authority figures. Maybe because scandals weren't so widely publicised. Maybe because they weren't taught to want or expect things in life. From an early age, we are bombarded with adverts that tell us we need expensive goods to make us happy. I doubt your relatives were yearning for the latest fashion or gadgets.

I think people were also more religious which is very much about compliance. Plus, some may have lived through World Wars where I suspect survival instinct goes off the charts and makes people willing to be grateful for just being alive and in one piece. Plus, more willing to work towards a group effort. A huge outside threat tends to make people unite.

The whole rise of individualism maybe plays a part. People may not be content with the idea of following in the footsteps of their family business. They may want to become an influencer on social media like their mates. If your relatives lived next door to someone who didn't have to work as hard as they did. Who had the latest gadgets of that time- (maybe they did, I don't know...) would they have been so content? Do we just accept things because everyone is in the same boat? The boat these days is crammed full of luxury items so- it makes sense that everyone now seems to want them.

Sometimes I think we are taught to be discontended with our lives. Because ultimately- it serves the capitalist/consumerist machine. You feel a need/pressure to fulfil your potential in life. Especially when it comes to your career- which means rising as high as you can in your chosen industry- and, earning the most you can. Plus, we are encouraged to have a sense of entitlement. We need that new phone, laptop, car, fancy house, holiday. Doesn't matter if we need credit to get it- that's just what you do. We're simply taught to need stuff. I don't think people were so much, back in the day. There wouldn't have been stores filled with shit to buy even.

Ok, you can say it's choice. People don't have to buy all that stuff. But- sometimes it can be a bandaid for them. Do you suppose people today would be happy living your ancestors life? I doubt it. People can now see inequality everywhere. People are also kind of obsessed with the right to choose. (Not that I'm criticising that.) But, we feel entitled to do what we want and be who we want. We'll cut off family and move away if we find them toxic or annoying. We'll quit our job to pursue a career on YouTube, we'll become a NEET, we'll change sex, marry our own sex and we personally here feel we should have the right to terminate our own lives. How many of those things would have even occured to your ancestors as going propositions?

It's kind of weird that so much freedom (relatively speaking) and so much affluence (relatively speaking) doesn't seem to be making us any happier in general. It's curious really.

 

[Meteora]

Yeah I think times have changed and it is not easier for the younger generations even if it seems so at first. The digital age ruined a lot of basic values in my opinion, misleads people and manipulates them very subtly but effectively.

Plus, more willing to work towards a group effort.

The social media makes young people believe they can have it all and reach everything, the individualism is growing and thats a biiiiiig problem also in relationships. I m not saying it was better 50 years ago, but where we are today is for sure not good either.

ok, you can say it's choice. People don't have to buy all that stuff.

Yeah for young people it is not only a "choice", maybe. But I still believe that one can find a way to avoid capitalism. Maybe I m wrong.

people are also kind of obsessed with the right to choose. (Not that I'm criticising that.) But, we feel entitled to do what we want and be who we want. We'll cut off family and move away if we find them toxic or annoying. We'll quit our job to pursue a career on YouTube, we'll become a NEET, we'll change sex, marry our own sex and we personally here feel we should have the right to terminate our own lives. How many of those things would have even occured to your ancestors as going propositions?

It is a complete illusion that we always have the choice or let's say, that this will make us happy. I think the right to end your life in exactely this world should be given. . I think, if cancer patients are allowed to get assisted suicide then people who don't manage to live in this world should be allowed, too. Because it is not strange that this world is too much for an individual, imo it is rather normal.

It's kind of weird that so much freedom (relatively speaking) and so much affluence (relatively speaking) doesn't seem to be making us any happier in general. It's curious really.

I think deep inside we wish to belong somewhere, we need connection and unity. This hasn't changed and probably never will.... it is basic human needs.

 

[psp3000]

by entire life do you mean until the age of 18 or until they are able to financially support themselves/financially stable on their own and ready to move out and start their own life ?

 

[Forever Sleep]

by entire life do you mean until the age of 18 or until they are able to financially support themselves/financially stable on their own and ready to move out and start their own life ?

More like- is it reasonable to expect your child to one day be able to support itself- whatever age- because probability-wise- it likely will one day? But still- that's an assumption right? That your child will be healthy enough to work. That they will be able to find work that pays well enough to sustain an ok quality of life. That they will actually accept it that they will need to work in order to support themselves.

Is that reasonable to put on someone? I'd say 'no' but that's only part of why I hold antinatilist views- I don't think it's all that fair to condemn a life to wage slavery. And we're all slaves to capitalism once we've been brought here. So- I guess the alternative is to know there's enough money to support that child- should they not be able to work- in which case, presumably benefits will swing in too. But- if they don't want to work- is that an ok choice for them to make or, should they be forced to by cutting off their funding or, simply not having the funding to provide them with?

I suppose the idea of birthing a child here frustrates me because it's enlisting that child involuntarily into a whole system of hard work and rules. It just seems such a big risk to me to assume that child will be ok with all that. And then get angry with it if it complains.

 

[Camper]

No. The point of having a child is to raise someone who will be an adult one day. That involves eventually being self-reliant. Having children with the opposite expectation will have unfortunate consequences.

Is there a possibility that this child may be born with a severe disability? Yes. But it is slim, and the State will end up picking up the tab if you're in the First World.

 

[untothedepths]

My expectations for those who want children would be extremely high. Maybe impossible for most people.

 

[Forever Sleep]

No. The point of having a child is to raise someone who will be an adult one day. That involves eventually being self-reliant. Having children with the opposite expectation will have unfortunate consequences.

Is there a possibility that this child may be born with a severe disability? Yes. But it is slim, and the State will end up picking up the tab if you're in the First World.

The point for whom though? The child? That's assuming they're going to enjoy being an adult, working a 40+ hour week. Do many people seem happy doing that do you think? Maybe they do. They're maybe not so unhappy that they want to top themselves. Still- even the happiest people I know feel overworked and underpaid- even if they enjoy their job. I doubt people working in sweat shops in third world countries are that thrilled though.

Or- the point for the parent? So they have some company, someone to love, someone to be proud of, someone to look after them in old age? Or- the point for society? More meat for the grinder as it were.

It's not that I don't entirely disagree with you. I'm not sure that someone would end up all that happy if they had no responsibility. Nothing to work towards in life. No sense of independence.

The problem I have is- we get no choice in the matter. We get born into varying degrees of slavery. Is it fair to birth a child knowing it will be a slave? Even if you hope it will be ok with complying? Is it fair to birth a sentient creature capable of creating strong opinions and making choices, that can feel deep suffering and also rebel, into a system where it can't make choices. It's going to have to comply to whatever limitations its genes gave it- including hereditary illnesses and beyond that, it has a whole soiciety of rules and expectations it will need to follow. And- it will likely suffer to some extent whether it follows those rules or not. On top- if it wants to leave via suicide, it will be disuaded to in the strongest way possible. It will be ensured that it only has access to methods that could severly maim but not kill it. It will be carted off to a psyche ward and told how selfish it was to be abandoning its family.

I guess ultimately- I see life as an experiement where a whole range of things are possible. Some of the good things might be guaranteed. A parent for instance may know they will love that child and give it so much time and support. They may also know they are financially secure and in an area with good schools and good facilities. They can't guarantee they won't die in 3 years (like my Mum did.) They can't guarantee that that child won't develop illnesses. They can't guarantee much else really. What is 100% guaranteed is that that child will have to comply to societies rules or suffer the consequences. Also 100% guaranteed is they will experience loss. They will definitely die one day. They'll likely have to witness their parents and other family members dying first.

So- my antinatilist view is very much- it isn't fair to bring a sentient being into an experiment where some bad things are guaranteed and others are highly likely and insist it plays through to the end.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Many of us here often refer to the term slave / wage-slave (me included!) but does the majority of people (normies) really see themselves as slaves and would they actually say that their children once are becoming slaves in the future, when they don't feel to be enslaved?

 

[Forever Sleep]

Many of us here often refer to the term slave / wage-slave (me included!) but does the majority of people (normies) really see themselves as slaves and would they actually say that their children once are becoming slaves in the future, when they don't feel to be enslaved?

I'm not honestly sure. Maybe they don't feel it to that extreme but even 'normies' I know will complain about their work. Too many hours, not enough pay, too much pressure, sociopathic bosses, not being appreciated, exploitative rules, being constantly tired. How many people do you know who don't complain about their job?

Maybe it's not to the extent of 'slavery' but even my Dad- who is very pro-life will say he spent his working life lining the pockets of rich CEO's. If and when I complain about work, he will tell me how he had it so much worse. And he did to be fair- one firm put him on nights with no pay increase.

But- that's the lunacy of it (to me...) Parents will show that they realised how corrupt the system was/is. How they had to work 3 jobs to get by. How hard it was to even find a job in the first place. In most cases- I reckon they will tell you it was worse for them.

Either that means they are now so blinded by hormones that they now think the streets are paved with gold or, they accept that we will struggle as much as they did and- that's ok... Is it though? Maybe they didn't consider that we will start to question it- because, they didn't.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

How many people do you know who don't complain about their job?

I know only very few people and from the few people I know all of them have relatively good jobs, I never heard them really complaining. I'm not in contact with many people.

 

[BrainShower]

I mean, yeah. But even if a person thinks they have a plan and a stable setting to make enough money, they can be mistaken and get fucked over by life.
Ask me how I know.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

I mean, yeah. But even if a person thinks they have a plan and a stable setting to make enough money, they can be mistaken and get fucked over by life.
Ask me how I know.

This is so true! None of us knows what's gonna happen in 5, 10, 20 years from now. There's no guarantee for anything.

 

[Forever Sleep]

This is so true! None of us knows what's gonna happen in 5, 10, 20 years from now. There's no guarantee for anything.

Which is why I lean towards full antinatilism personally.

Plus, as other members have commented, money isn't everything. That child could be rich but abused. Someone growing up in poverty may actually be happy. It certainly isn't everything.

I guess what I wanted consensus on though is- birthing a child here burdens it with responsibilities and, pretty harsh consequences if they aren't willing to take on those responsibilities- if the parents can no longer, or won't support it. Is that fair?

 

[Praestat_Mori]

I guess what I wanted consensus on though is- birthing a child here burdens it with responsibilities and, pretty harsh consequences if they aren't willing to take on those responsibilities- if the parents can no longer, or won't support it. Is that fair?

That sounds fair! But who's fault is this then? The parents are responsible for what they did.

 

[Forever Sleep]

That sounds fair! But who's fault is this then? The parents are responsible for what they did.

I guess I'm saying- I don't think it is fair. I don't think it's fair to bring a sentient being here to be burdened with responsibilities it didn't agree to. And worse- do whatever it takes to prevent it from leaving or opting out. That's the worst bit I think. That assisted suicide/suicide isn't available or accepted for most people. It's forced labour effectively.

Maybe most people don't see it like that but the problem is choice. There is no choice! Or rather, it's a very harsh choice to opt and go destitute. Same as suicide. It's not that we can't choose to do it. It's that it's been made so that the methods we have access to are largely unreliable and painful. Great choice.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Maybe most people don't see it like that but the problem is choice. There is no choice! Or rather, it's a very harsh choice to opt and go destitute. Same as suicide. It's not that we can't choose to do it. It's that it's been made so that the methods we have access to are largely unreliable and painful. Great choice.

True. The choices are limited and indoctrination that suicide is bad. In the end there's still SI even with a peaceful method.

 

[Forever Sleep]

True. The choices are limited and indoctrination that suicide is bad. In the end there's still SI even with a peaceful method.

Worse- there's the risk of failure and life altering consequences with ALL home grown methods. It's a risk to kill yourself... A potentially HUGE risk. That I imagine is why so many of us are still (reluctantly) here.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Worse- there's the risk of failure and life altering consequences with ALL home grown methods. It's a risk to kill yourself... A potentially HUGE risk.

Yes it is. Though I'd still say full hanging is reliable with low risk of failure (unless the rope and / or the anchor point is not strong enough but that can be checked before the attempt!), that was probably the method throughout centuries and before N was synthesized. There's also cyanide which is very effective but is painful. But a very low risk to fail.

That I imagine is why so many of us are still (reluctantly) here.

I think that applies to the community here but not to the population of a whole country. For the vast majority SI is the best protection.

 

[greatblueheron]

In theory, yes. The reality of socially enforcing this as a rule is just systematic elimination of poor people.