Discussion SHOULD Nihilism be the worldview?

[Forever Sleep]

Ok, so I'm mainly posting this in the hopes we can move beyond personal slights and discuss the subject that seems to be underlying a lot of the recent conflict here- Nihilism.

For those who don't know (although I suspect everyone does...) Nhilism is:

'a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless' (from Merriam-Webster.com)

A sentiment I expect many of us resonate with. (Even me to some extent.) The 'problem' I think we have encountered recentley is this idea that it is the only 'true' or real way to see the world and anyone who doesn't is wrong or delluded.

Sorry to sound particular but I'm not posting this thread looking for all the billions of examples of exactly WHY life is so shit. I think the fact that we are all reading this on a suicide website means we've all seen our fair share of shit!

What I'm instead hoping for is a discussion on why or why not it is reasonable to say this ought to be the -'true' world view.

From my perspective- I would say Nihilism is indeed a perfectly rational way to SUBJECTIVELY see the world given all the suffering here and dependant on ones own lack of a (religious/spiritual) belief system.

HOWEVER- I personally can't get beyond it being a philisophy rather than a fact. In order for it to become a fact, you have to start denying elements which I say were crucial or at least hard to disprove that make up our experience of life.

Nihilism is an exclusively human concept (as far as we are aware.) It is based on this idea of life being 'bad.' But good and bad are subjective concepts- not facts. When something is given life, it then embarks on it's journey where good and bad stuff happens (as far as that being is concerned.) It is this idea of morality or fairness and just the experience of pain that informs us that these things were 'bad.' PERSONAL experience- not factual right and wrongs.

There IS indeed a lot of suffering in MOST people's lives but not EVERYONE suffers. Just because someone CAN suffer, doesn't necessarily mean they WILL. People and all creatures don't ALL suffer ALL of the time. Some out there would say their good experiences outweighed the bad.

Life is perceived differently by everyone. Some people PURPOSELY put themselves through suffering in order to overcome it- eg. Climbing Everest. Also- as horrific as it may sound- something that was a 'bad' event for someone could be a 'good' event for another- eg. Someone robs someone else. A lion eats an antelope.

As to an overall lack of meaning- that depends largely on belief. It doesn't seem unreasonable to say this life CAN seem pointless (although- again- people with a drive to create/ invent/ change or improve something could well disagree.) However- Nihilism only works if there is ONLY this life. Plus, you ignore an individuals personal experience and look at the overall probability of bad things happening.

Pain is natures way of telling us there is something wrong with us- so- to make us do something about it. Suffering overall is only useless if indeed there is only this life. Some religions believe that suffering will be rewarded in an afterlife. In the case of reincarnation- suffering perhaps is there to teach us to become better. I want to say- these aren't necessarily my beliefs. However, for Nihilism to be fact rather than philiosophy- you do need to dispose of many religions and notions of an afterlife.

I believe the Atheist position is that it's up to the religious folk out there to produce evidence of the existence of a God/Gods- not their 'job' to prove that there isn't one. However- if we are to accept Nihilism as FACT- is this enough? Do we not need to KNOW whether there is anything else? Some greater plan behind this shit show?

Seeing as this is something we may never know, isn't everything just theory? At what point do we acknowledge that life is shit enough and there are not enough facts to prove there is a reason behind all this to say that- yes- the Nihilists are right?

Anyway- that's just a few of my own thoughts on this... I know we've already started discussing some of them on other threads. I know there's nothing really new here. Like I said though- the main purpose of this (I'm hoping) is to focus a discussion on a subject.

Please keep it cordial guys. There's no reason why we can't all express our views without getting snarky with each other. Also, if you're sick to death of hearing all this and it's all a big bore- or- you don't feel the want or need to argue your position- that's fine too. Thanks for reading and I'm interested to hear your thoughts...

 

[tary]

Nobody knows the ultimate nature of reality - whether what we experience in this life is actually all there is or not.
Which leaves room for all manner of beliefs and worldviews about what is meaningful and what isn't.
If you're a nihilist and don't believe in anything you have no evidence for, or course this world and life don't seem to have much reason to exist or deeper meaning.
But since there also isn't any solid proof for the nihilist worldview, any arguments about it being true are basically arguing about a matter of taste.
The question is whether a suicide board is the right place to have those kinds of (inevitable) discussions, or if there should maybe be a thread for it on the offtopic board.
I personally don't mind anyone promoting their worldviews, whatever they are and don't feel any need to argue, even when I disagree.
But maybe others feel differently, and whether or not the arguing should take place here is a matter for the mods to decide.

 

[Mofreeko]

I don't think nihilism is the issue here really. It's being arrogant and annoying about the nihilism. Like, you wouldn't go to a funeral and tell the friends and family of the deceased how lucky it is that they're dead and how anyone who misses them is selfish and stupid.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Nobody knows the ultimate nature of reality - whether what we experience in this life is actually all there is or not.
Which leaves room for all manner of beliefs and worldviews about what is meaningful and what isn't.
If you're a nihilist and don't believe in anything you have no evidence for, or course this world and life don't seem to have much reason to exist or deeper meaning.
But since there also isn't any solid proof for the nihilist worldview, any arguments about it being true are basically arguing about a matter of taste.
The question is whether a suicide board is the right place to have those kinds of (inevitable) discussions, or if there should maybe be a thread for it on the offtopic board.
I personally don't mind anyone promoting their worldviews, whatever they are and don't feel any need to argue, even when I disagree.
But maybe others feel differently, and whether or not the arguing should take place here is a matter for the mods to decide.

All good points and I agree- it is more of an off-topic subject. I posted it here though because quite a few of the diagreements going on that surround the nihilism debate are going on here. I was hoping to divert the attention towards the subject rather than the individuals involved. Still, no worries if the mods want to move it elsewhere.

 

[gimzero]

For sure but not connect with rencarnation.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I don't think nihilism is the issue here really. It's being arrogant and annoying about the nihilism. Like, you wouldn't go to a funeral and tell the friends and family of the deceased how lucky it is that they're dead and how anyone who misses them is selfish and stupid.

True but I don't think even the most hardened Nihilist would do that. This place isn't the real world. I am grateful for that. I expect a lot of us express stuff here we wouldn't in the real world.

Having said that- I would like to think there is room here for people with all different beliefs and that we can talk about them freely and rationally.

I definitely have problems with Nihilism being seen as a supreme, factual authority that ought to apply to all. I'm just hoping we can have some level of debate on WHY it should or shouldn't be.

 

[theboy]

Is just a theory...

 

[TAW122]

It's a great post and I would say, yes nihilism should be considered the most objective view in terms of the universe as the meaning that we attribute to things we perceive and experience are our own experiences and from our own lens. I myself consider myself to be an atheist (believing in no god or higher power) and I believe that the life we have now is the only life we get, albeit it is a shitty existence.

I personally don't believe there is an objective fact that life is good (again, if we consider the grandiose universe itself; we are just pawns, or a type of species transferring energy between each other and interacting with other living organisms, plants and animals alike), but only because of the belief systems by people before us and those in charge to attribute "goodness" as an inherent value towards 'life'. There is nothing good about life itself, but rather it is an imposition of sentience towards a non-sentient being. Nobody chose to live or be alive, but simply exist due to things outside of their control. Therefore, to attribute goodness to life (or sentience) itself is just another subjective value that is purported by the masses, those in power, and prolifers to justify life is good as a fact (when it is not).

 

[Forever Sleep]

It's a great post and I would say, yes nihilism should be considered the most objective view in terms of the universe as the meaning that we attribute to things we perceive and experience are our own experiences and from our own lens. I myself consider myself to be an atheist (believing in no god or higher power) and I believe that the life we have now is the only life we get, albeit it is a shitty existence.

I personally don't believe there is an objective fact that life is good (again, if we consider the grandiose universe itself; we are just pawns, or a type of species transferring energy between each other and interacting with other living organisms, plants and animals alike), but only because of the belief systems by people before us and those in charge to attribute "goodness" as an inherent value towards 'life'. There is nothing good about life itself, but rather it is an imposition of sentience towards a non-sentient being. Nobody chose to live or be alive, but simply exist due to things outside of their control. Therefore, to attribute goodness to life (or sentience) itself is just another subjective value that is purported by the masses, those in power, and prolifers to justify life is good as a fact (when it is not).

Thanks for your response. On a personal level, I agree with you. It's on this universal 'objective' level I struggle. I think our ideas of what is good and bad are subjective- not objective:

'There is no such thing as the objectively good, the objectively bad, there are only the diverse preferences of individuals. Different people hold different things to be good and bad, and that is all there is to it; one cannot say that some are correct, and others incorrect in what they judge to be of value.' (From discovery.ucl.ac.uk)

I completely agree that life isn't underlyingly 'good' as some default setting. Neither do I think it is underlyingly 'bad.' It just IS... Something isn't objectively bad because we don't happen to like it or think it's immoral or unfair. Like you said- we are all ultimately just energy transfering. That isn't a good or bad thing- it's just a state...

Where I would conceed is in awareness I suppose. To be able to SEE that it's a bad thing- or to come to that conclusion anyhow. I guess the flipside though is that some people come to the conclusion that life is a good thing. Fine- call them delluded but if this is all theory/ philosophy/ perception- why is your theory more true than theirs?

 

[freedompass]

True but I don't think even the most hardened Nihilist would do that. This place isn't the real world. I am grateful for that. I expect a lot of us express stuff here we wouldn't in the real world.

Having said that- I would like to think there is room here for people with all different beliefs and that we can talk about them freely and rationally.

I definitely have problems with Nihilism being seen as a supreme, factual authority that ought to apply to all. I'm just hoping we can have some level of debate on WHY it should or shouldn't be.

It may help, or it may not. Perhaps a few of the 'nihilists' (I'll resist labelling them as a pro death cult for now ) might respond to a rational argument. Not holding my breath…but it's possible.

I don't think nihilism is the issue here really. It's being arrogant and annoying about the nihilism. Like, you wouldn't go to a funeral and tell the friends and family of the deceased how lucky it is that they're dead and how anyone who misses them is selfish and stupid.

I agree with this

 

[FuneralCry]

People can believe in whatever they want about life really, like if someone is religious or spiritual and believes that life has some kind of deeper meaning then that is their view. But the way that I see it, nihilistic viewpoints make sense. I do believe that life only exists in the first place as a consequence of evolution and there is no real purpose to any of this, all life exists just to deteriorate and die and inevitably be forgotten about. All that existing is, is just waiting around to die anyway. But the fact that we have the ability to be conscious and aware means that people often question the 'meaning of life', as the true meaningless and insignificant nature of existence is too difficult for them to come to terms with, and they invent theories to try to explain this and to me any of those types of theories are simply fictional. If someone tries to look for an objective point to any of this, then they won't find anything.

 

[rationaltake]

It's just like religion really. People believe it or people don't. That's the point for me. Nihilism is just another belief.

Whatever anyone believes life just keeps on propagating itself. Individuals die but life keeps going. That's what evolution is all about. Survival in order to produce the next generation. Maybe all life will die at some point but it's still going at the moment.

Some people say producing and raising offspring is their purpose in life.

Biologically the purpose of life in general and individually is to propagate life.

 

[Forever Sleep]

People can believe in whatever they want about life really, like if someone is religious or spiritual and believes that life has some kind of deeper meaning then that is their view. But the way that I see it, nihilistic viewpoints make sense. I do believe that life only exists in the first place as a consequence of evolution and there is no real purpose to any of this, all life exists just to deteriorate and die and inevitably be forgotten out. All that existing is, is just waiting around to die anyway. But the fact that we have the ability to be conscious and aware means that people often question the 'meaning of life', as the true meaningless and insignificant nature of existence is too difficult for them to come to terms with, and they invent theories to try to explain this and to me any of those types of theories are simply fictional. If someone tries to look for an objective point to any of this, then they won't find anything.

I do personally agree with so much of what you are saying. I think the majority of us believe in the things that make the most sense to us- which largely relates to our own experience of life.

In many of our cases here- life hasn't been all that great. Simply looking at the facts- it is definitely hard to truly believe there is a God (a good one anyhow) or that all of this suffering is for a greater purpose. Neither is it that easy to believe things are likely to get better given the decaying nature of our bodies and simply because we are likely more on the pessimistic side anyhow.

I also agree that searching for some objective meaning to life tends to yield very little also. I guess that's sort of my point though. Maybe there is no meaning- no underlying thing to it- maybe we are just some (unhappy) mistake in evolution. In that case- the basic element that is our life wasn't created through love or mallice by some God- it just happened. So- our baseline is neutral- neither good nor bad. It's what happens thereafter that decides on whether we view our lives to have been good or bad, meanigful or worthless. Our perceptions in other words.

Again- I'm not arguing that a HUGE amount of people and all living things have (or perceive that they have) very difficult lives. From a personal perspective, I lean the anti-natilist way- I feel it would be cruel to inflict life on an innocent being.

That all said- I don't see that people who view their own personal lives as meaningful or (for the most part) good as wrong. (I don't believe the same thing about my own life of course.) Their perception is based on their experience- just as mine is based on my own.

Perhaps they have been 'blinded' by ideas of religion, love, duty. Perhaps they are all just too distracted to really face the 'truth.' Or... Perhaps people like us have had more traumatic events in our lives- physically and mentally that we can't seem to get beyond.

I don't know but I do feel that our sense of reality is based on the perception of our own lives rather than being privy to an underlying 'truth'. We don't all perceive things the same way and we all have different difficulties in life to perceive. Therefore, all of our conclusions are likely to be different but they are simultaneously all valid because they are based on perception rather than fact.

 

[Mashedout]

No. Nihilsm is ulitmately arrogance. The ultimate truth is no one really knows what is going on, in either direction.

 

[Chinaski]

I don't think nihilism is the issue here really. It's being arrogant and annoying about the nihilism. Like, you wouldn't go to a funeral and tell the friends and family of the deceased how lucky it is that they're dead and how anyone who misses them is selfish and stupid.

This is absolutely correct.

 

[rationaltake]

It seems nihilism is becoming the state religion on this site.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

No, I believe nihilism should not be the world view. I'm not, nor will ever be, so caught up in my own personal problems, the keyword here being personal, that I wouldn't be cognizant of the fact that there are good things in this world that come to many, and that many people, the great vast majority of people, live very fulfilled lives further enriched with love, family, and even spiritual awareness (although I'm an atheist). There can be many things in this world that make life worth living if you are amongst the lucky ones and the happen to come your way. I'd never begrudge anyone that.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Recognizing that there is no inherent meaning in the universe (as well as the generally concomitant lack of belief in a deity) doesn't have to lead to rejecting life. Many people have such an understanding of the universe but find value and reward in living. In fact, the meaninglessness of life makes them find more value in that rather than less.

I know we tend to say that our being suicidal is a function of how the world is but it can be true in the opposite direction as well: our being suicidal contributes to how we view the world.

 

[Rairii]

No, personally I'm more of a fan of existentialism. I like the idea that we create our own meaning out of life. Irrelevant info there.

Anyway, I do not believe we should push beliefs of any kind on others whether that's philosophy, religion, etc. We should allow people to find their own beliefs and believe what they want. Everything is subjective. You view the world in this lense but there are others who view it completely different and I'd hate to take away their own view of the world. I don't see much benefit in changing everyone's view and beliefs into that of a nihilistic perspective.

 

[rationaltake]

No, personally I'm more of a fan of existentialism. I like the idea that we create our own meaning out of life. Irrelevant info there.

Anyway, I do not believe we should push beliefs of any kind on others whether that's philosophy, religion, etc. We should allow people to find their own beliefs and believe what they want. Everything is subjective. You view the world in this lense but there are others who view it completely different and I'd hate to take away their own view of the world. I don't see much benefit in changing everyone's view and beliefs into that of a nihilistic perspective.

I like existentialism too.

 

[Himalayan]

No. Philosophy isn't something to be imposed like an ideology.
Don't even care much about this, but the idea is insane.

"Hmmm. U think your life has mening? U stupid, hehehehehe"

 

[BreathOnAMirror]

I don't feel qualified to comment on whether or not it should be the worldview, but I can postulate on whether or not it would be the the worldview should religion not exist.

I believe that many great minds throughout the last century and even before filled their minds with religion so they didn't have to face the question of existence, you can't question why you're here or what the point of it all is if you have once simple answer, God. Religion is sort of an easy way out, and honestly there's really nothing wrong with that, the question of meaning is a terrifying one (as I'm sure most of us here understand), so who are we to judge someone who'd rather just enjoy life in blissful ignorance than face the never ending abyss of meaninglessness? Now should religion not exist, and the whole world be forced to face that sheer cliff, I believe that three main groups of thought would emerge.

The first group would be those who barely notice. Not to try to make us sound smarter or better than we are, but those like us who think about these concepts deeply for a substantial amount of time are a very small subset of the population, most people just don't care about the meaning of it all. I would guess a solid 60% of the population just live life in this way already, they go to work, they go home, they find friends, they find love, they buy things, they make art, they follow religion, but not really out of an understanding of it but more so because it's just what they were taught to do, they eat, they sleep, they live, and no more than once or twice in their life do they think for more than a moment about why they do any of it, if you ask me their life is in some ways one to be envied.

The second group would be those who fall into pure nihilism. I'm sure I don't need to go into too much depth on these people as a large part of this forum consists of them. Basically the people who look out at everything and truly see nothing, no meaning, no reason to be here, no point in continuing, no point in having existed at all. It's a fair mindset when glimpsing the truly overpowering objectivity of reality.

The third group would consist of those who overcome that nihilism. The issue I find in nihilism is that, while it's probably the most objective philosophy, the one that holds the most reason about the nature of things, it's really not all too productive on any front other than hopelessness, yes things are meaningless, yes we're stuck in an uncaring universe, yes no one is coming to save us, so what are we going to do about it? To me nihilism is merely a stepping stone to other philosophies, one must come to understand meaninglessness before they can come to understand true meaning. Philosophies like absurdism take the initial concept of "Everything is meaningless..." and add on the concept of "...so what?", they essentially say that if the Universe won't give us a meaning then we'll make one ourselves. Philosophies like absurdism allow for an objective look at the Universe while still moving foreword, while still being able to enjoy things no matter how small and objectively insignificant.

So essentially I think that about 60% of people wouldn't notice or care, about 5% would get stuck within nihilism, and about 35% would move past nihilism onto more productive philosophies.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I don't feel qualified to comment on whether or not it should be the worldview, but I can postulate on whether or not it would be the the worldview should religion not exist.

I believe that many great minds throughout the last century and even before filled their minds with religion so they didn't have to face the question of existence, you can't question why you're here or what the point of it all is if you have once simple answer, God. Religion is sort of an easy way out, and honestly there's really nothing wrong with that, the question of meaning is a terrifying one (as I'm sure most of us here understand), so who are we to judge someone who'd rather just enjoy life in blissful ignorance than face the never ending abyss of meaninglessness? Now should religion not exist, and the whole world be forced to face that sheer cliff, I believe that three main groups of thought would emerge.

The first group would be those who barely notice. Not to try to make us sound smarter or better than we are, but those like us who think about these concepts deeply for a substantial amount of time are a very small subset of the population, most people just don't care about the meaning of it all. I would guess a solid 60% of the population just live life in this way already, they go to work, they go home, they find friends, they find love, they buy things, they make art, they follow religion, but not really out of an understanding of it but more so because it's just what they were taught to do, they eat, they sleep, they live, and no more than once or twice in their life do they think for more than a moment about why they do any of it, if you ask me their life is in some ways one to be envied.

The second group would be those who fall into pure nihilism. I'm sure I don't need to go into too much depth on these people as a large part of this forum consists of them. Basically the people who look out at everything and truly see nothing, no meaning, no reason to be here, no point in continuing, no point in having existed at all. It's a fair mindset when glimpsing the truly overpowering objectivity of reality.

The third group would consist of those who overcome that nihilism. The issue I find in nihilism is that, while it's probably the most objective philosophy, the one that holds the most reason about the nature of things, it's really not all too productive on any front other than hopelessness, yes things are meaningless, yes we're stuck in an uncaring universe, yes no one is coming to save us, so what are we going to do about it? To me nihilism is merely a stepping stone to other philosophies, one must come to understand meaninglessness before they can come to understand true meaning. Philosophies like absurdism take the initial concept of "Everything is meaningless..." and add on the concept of "...so what?", they essentially say that if the Universe won't give us a meaning then we'll make one ourselves. Philosophies like absurdism allow for an objective look at the Universe while still moving foreword, while still being able to enjoy things no matter how small and objectively insignificant.

So essentially I think that about 60% of people wouldn't notice or care, about 5% would get stuck within nihilism, and about 35% would move past nihilism onto more productive philosophies.

Absurdism sounds like a brilliant description of the state we're in. It certainly seems absurd! Plus, I resonate with this idea that there might not need to be a fundamental reason underlying life for some people to still find worth in it. (Not to say I necessarily do...) I'd never heard of it before... Thank you for posting this.

 

[Un-]

No, I believe nihilism should not be the world view. I'm not, nor will ever be, so caught up in my own personal problems, the keyword here being personal, that I wouldn't be cognizant of the fact that there are good things in this world that come to many, and that many people, the great vast majority of people, live very fulfilled lives further enriched with love, family, and even spiritual awareness (although I'm an atheist). There can be many things in this world that make life worth living if you are amongst the lucky ones and the happen to come your way. I'd never begrudge anyone that.

Though, that's just pessimism.. Well, not really.. But it's certainly not plain nihilism. It just happens to be that some people who are nihilistic are pessimistic about life. I'm not. I'm pessimistic about my life, and I know damn well that I'm fuck up that deserves to die.

I've been made very aware, countless times, of how people enjoy life for various reasons. Though, I am still a nihilist.

I agree with what you said though. I just don't like it when people conflate the two. It's like mixing emo and depression together. They're two separate things, but one happens to have a lot of the other.

 

[Rainy_days]

When evaluating a belief (especially an unverifiable one), I think we must take into account how it affects our behavior towards others. I think it is problematic when some self proclaimed nihilists use that as an excuse to disclaim any responsibility for how their words and actions might cause suffering for others. This can take an active form of being directly callous and abusive, but also the more insidious one of doggedly undermining whatever hope and optimism others may have. Kindness matters even if you think nothing else does.

 

[ksp]

SHOULD Nihilism be the worldview?

no, it shouldn't. people are free to make their own informed decisions, that can change over time
if someone is asking my opinion, i offer it, and they can decide for themselves - it shows that they are ready to receive input

same problem with religion

 

[locked*n*loaded]

No, I believe nihilism should not be the world view. I'm not, nor will ever be, so caught up in my own personal problems, the keyword here being personal, that I wouldn't be cognizant of the fact that there are good things in this world that come to many, and that many people, the great vast majority of people, live very fulfilled lives further enriched with love, family, and even spiritual awareness (although I'm an atheist). There can be many things in this world that make life worth living if you are amongst the lucky ones and the happen to come your way. I'd never begrudge anyone that.

Though, that's just pessimism.. Well, not really.. But it's certainly not plain nihilism. It just happens to be that some people who are nihilistic are pessimistic about life. I'm not. I'm pessimistic about my life, and I know damn well that I'm fuck up that deserves to die.

I've been made very aware, countless times, of how people enjoy life for various reasons. Though, I am still a nihilist.

I agree with what you said though. I just don't like it when people conflate the two. It's like mixing emo and depression together. They're two separate things, but one happens to have a lot of the other.

Not sure I'm understanding your point about my post in regard to either pessimism or nihilism. I do not believe that life is simply not worth living if one is lucky enough to get some of the good things out of life. It is the absence of these things that can make life meaningless. I guess that can be taken as pessimistic, as there is no point in living if one doesn't get anything good out of life. I'm not sure if nihilism draws the distinction between one's own life, or all life, as being meaningless and not worth living, but I thought it was a "universal" type viewpoint that all life is devoid of meaning and not worth living. I believe, as you do, that my life is not worth living within the confines of present circumstances, and which are not going to get better by any meaningful amount. I don't believe that to be nihilism of any kind. I believe that to be realism.

 

[brokensea]

It really comes down to the philosophical idea of truth. Nihilism is true in a sense. We all live in a constant state of need trying fulfill our basic needs. We suffer if we are too cold, too hot, hungry, tired, thirsty. We suffer if we are lonely, abandoned, sick, abused. Our life is suffering and survival based. We are always trying to keep ourselves in homeostasis where our needs are met and suffering is minimized. We are never completely satisfied for long. We will always be moments away from one type of suffering or another and life is an endless pursuit to satisfy the suffering our endless needs cause.

We evolved to satisfy those needs based mostly on the suffering of others. We learned a way to take resources from others even if it causes them tremendous pain and death in order for us to live. We are in some sense a parasite and the earth is our host. We kill animals, plants in order to live and drain resources. Our existence means the suffering of others for our own survival. Things must die every day in order for us to live so we can consume their resources.

Then we have emotional needs on top of our basic needs. Our emotional selves are often brutalized. Aside from abuse and abandonment even if we find something worth caring for that fulfills our emotional needs you or they will die which leads to suffering. Everything you love and everyone you know will be dead eventually.

It seems to be a world of endless cruelty and personal suffering. It all does seem pointless, brief and brutal. There is likely no afterlife that leads to a true existential point to any of it.

Yet even in this world of darkness there are things of beauty, people who sacrifice for others and show something akin to love. Nature is fearsome and cruel but can be astounding in beauty as well. Satisfying needs can bring peace and contentment. Love can bring happiness and make things maybe seem not quite as horrible as they are. Positive emotions and experiences do exist. Some people find a purpose in making the world less painful for others and helping them. Sharing knowledge, creating something, experiencing new places and things, finding a family or love or friendship can be something to hold onto. Even laughter existing in such a strange harsh world is something.

I use to feel happiness. It was many years ago so feels like a dream and it seems unreal. I know I will never be truly happy again. But I remember that I was and I think when you have hope, when you don't think about how completely insane everything is and you have enough good things and your needs are met people can feel ok or even good about life.

So really both things are true life is a big pointless, painful, cruel shit show but if we didn't have an idea of a beautiful existence with minimal pain all of it wouldn't hurt so much. Death is an absence of all pain even if we disappear. So even then we look for peace and an end to suffering. Some people have most of their needs met fairly easily and have love and support and are well off enough they don't suffer as much as others from hunger or lack of shelter. Their brains are able to feel mostly positive things and aren't born with a broken brain that makes satisfying needs difficult if not impossible. So they do feel happy and just try not to think of the other crappy stuff that goes along with existence. I think they just don't think about life in such a bleak way and life isn't that bad for them. So I have no doubt some people are happy and that's their perspective and experience. There is no real truth because both those things are true simultaneously. Life is empty, painful and pointless and it can also be exhilarating and positive for others or have meaning for them. Their needs don't personally cause them the level of suffering they do for others who have so many of them that are unmet. They may also believe in a religion that defines life and explains a purpose to them that makes everything easier to manage and gives them peace. Perhaps ignorance is bliss and they just don't think about the horrors of day to day life. It could make anyone depressed if they sat around thinking of this stuff constantly (As I do) So from their perspective Nihilism is not true. They just don't think about life being an awful existence all the time.

 

[Winterreise]

Why should we institutionalize such a dark view of human life?

If human existance is that swift and pointless...
if we just come and go, and disappear like we do..

Then focus on building a strong SYSTEM.
Build strong institutions with corrective mechanisms.
Which considers the frailty and faults of human kind.

Leaders come and go. But the system remains.
We kind of have it allready in the west.

 

[IWantPeace99]

If you think about Eternal Recurrence, Many Worlds theorie or Quantum immortality. I think you should make the best of your life. As you will never escape existence and will always live your life infinitely long. If you die in this world, you will survive in another identical universe. And you will live on there. If eternal recurrence is true, you will live the exact same life over and over again without ever knowing it. So you would live depressed and end op killing yourself over and over again, or you could make something of your life and live that same life over and over again. Either way you can never escape existance.

Atleast thats how i think this world works sadly