Discussion Should 'healthy' people have access to assisted suicide? Poll

[ChoclateIsSweet]

i understand your reasoning: your thinking is based on kindness, and i appreciate your honesty, but:

it's very easy to generalize

how do you define 'truly'? why is your definition better than someone else's?

safeguard:

- society - take this responsibility away from normal people / take my responsibility away from me
- it implies that normal people are irresponsible with their lives
- people are incapable of understanding that life is a 'precious' gift
- society will need to approve your decision - society knows your suffering better than you

the following questions are addressed to all who answered 'no' to the original question:

- when is acceptable for your personal freedom to be taken away from you, by society?
- would you feel safer if society decides your fate? (is society a better judge than you?)
- is it better to place blind trust in society? (i don't trust my judgement)
- is society completely impartial and objective? with no hidden agendas?
- will all people in society be able to understand your pain and torment? 100% ?!

when you allow society to take away your personal freedom and individual autonomy you are saying this:
- please feel free to judge me: i trust you more than i trust myself
- i'm confident i can make everyone understand my suffering
- i'm confident that i can describe my indescribable torment
- i'm sure i can show everyone that my hidden agony and hopelessness is completely understood
- my sadness and misery are undeniable (by everyone else)
- no one will ever doubt my reasons: no one will ever say that my reasons are not good enough


your personal autonomy is the most important right in your life

so i ask again:
- are you ready to give up this right and responsibility
- are you sure that society will approve your voluntary euthanasia?

or:
- will you demand that your personal freedom and self determination be respected, without exceptions?!

i don't want society to approve my decision - this is my decision, and mine alone
i don't need any validation - i know what i want

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so my initial answer to this thread remains the same:


i strongly believe that most people (99.99%) are extremely intelligent and responsible !

most people can a make all existential decisions by themselves

(and i'm not only referring to this website / forum - i'm referring to all people, in all countries)

Some of the safeguardin and conditions I agree completely were already stated previously. I'll quote them here:

Leaning towards yes, but with nuance. I think that there ought to be the following conditions:

1. Age of 25+ (I think that's when the brain "matures", if I'm not mistaken), unless there is a terminal illness of some kind.

2. No one with parental/caring responsibilities or even those who own a pet should be allowed to go ahead automatically, unless there are clear provisions set for those dependents after one's passing (even then, I personally believe that it ought to be discouraged). Exceptions for those with terminal illness should exist though.

3. One must be sound of mind i.e. able to understand and comprehend their suicide and be able to give (imformed consent).

4. One must be able to understand and write things like wills, living wills etc.

5. Undergo a waiting period (between 1 month to a year, perhaps?), with counselling and therapy to be offered, albeit not compulsory.

6. An interview to filter out people who are being forced or coerced into suicide.

7. I think prisoners, excluding those with terminal illnesses, shouldn't be allowed.

Other than those, I've no qualms at all regarding legalisation.

Choosing to die is an individual process but legalising an institute that allows people to die isn't. If the person prefers they can still choose to DIY their death.

I'm not good at articulating my thoughts so I probably choose the wrong words in my statements, but I hope the core idea is still remains.

 

[ksp]

legalising an institute that allows people to die isn't

current laws are not fair:

in US:
- oregon, vermont - euthanasia is legal
- new york, oklahoma - not legal

world:
- switzerland, canada - legal
- russia, china - not legal

laws are made by people;
people also make wars (men are forced to go war - are these laws fair?)

what laws are fair? more democratic countries or authoritarian countries?

---

still choose to DIY their death

is it fair to choose DIY death, when governments don't allow nembutal?

 

[myownpetvirus]

Unpopular opinion but I disagree. I think a lot of us in in this website can easily become one tracked in our vision.
Whilst I agree legalised euthanasia may do many people good, we need to do more to safeguard it to make sure it only helps those that truly want it.

I know the phrase "truly want it" may cause people to be annoyed or angry but in truth not everyone who is suicidal wants to die.
70% of people who attempt suicide, never make further attempts in their life again. Of course, there's no way of saying how their life is and why they continue to live. All I have are analogous accounts from friends and people on the internet that tell me they're either unsure how they feel about life or they're glad they survived.

Regarding the ground rules, the only difference is that the person somewhat try to engage in therapy and/or meditation (ideally this would be free). Whilst, this option hasn't actually helped me and I know that not everyone's problems can easily be fixed through that, there are still those it may be help.
It definitely shouldn't just be,
"Please kill me."
"Ok."

I will finish when I wake up

Nailed it.

 

[wanttodie]

yes every person has the right to die or end his life if he wants do die

 

[lionetta12]

I know there are many threads concerning this but I couldn't see one with a poll and I do enjoy a poll...

I'm going to set some ground rules for my vote but please feel free to define your own in the comments- if you like...

The person is over the age of 18.

By 'healthy' I mean- no terminal illness, no chronic pain. No, or very little history of mental health illness. (I realise this is contentious- some people will argue that ANYONE who wants to kill themselves is mentally ill.)

The person can clearly define what death is and can rationally communicate why they want to die. They express this wish at the start of the assessment. Six months later- their ideas have not changed.

The person has been offered therapy and medication and any other help available but has chosen to refuse this.

Should this person be given access to assisted suicide? If not- why not?

Some people want to CTB due to their own philosophical and personal views, I respect that and so yes.

 

[booplesnoot34]

I guess maybe but why would they seek it in the first place if they are healthy and not mentally ill or in crisis? I feel like the healthy human brain is wired against that. Maybe nihilism? Idk seems unlikely.

 

[Zykg85]

I voted yes.

To restrict access to euthanasia services is to create a mechanism which is easily aligned with eugenics. "Healthy" people are disqualified, but "unhealthy" have it available?

So, mental illness, autism spectrum, physical disability, etc.. Those qualify for death?

Yeah that's no good imo. Better for it to be available to everyone regardless.

Besides, someone—regardless their health or well-being—who doesn't want to live shouldn't be forced to live

 

[Dayrain]

Yes. Unhealthy condition is to be specified maybe from an organization if it would want to.

 

[Kagicore]

I mean yeah, why would it change due to becoming sick?

 

[brood]

I believe everyone should be able to end their own life, suicide is far and away preferable to virtually every other way of death.

 

[nico_wren]

I don't see why we should assume that persons wishes aren't thought out and just as meaningful as those with chronic illness. Yes, absolutley they should.

 

[nozomu]

everyone deserves access to a peaceful exit, whenever they want it.

 

[ceekatty]

I'm part of the small minority which replied no and I say so for very selfish reasons. I have both ill and healthy people in my life, and the fact that anyone would have access to it would make my world feel more unstable. The healthy people in my life I classify as "safe" in my mind, meaning I don't have to worry about them or prepare to receive an invite for their funeral if they aren't going through the best of times. I can depend on them to be alive any day of the week regardless of how they're doing. If they had access to that, the boundary between suicidal thoughts and the action will be non-existent, and any difficult change in their life would result in them killing themselves rather than them living like they would have if they didn't have access to it. I'm not the best at explaining things but in short I say no so I don't lose more stability in my life.

 

[Truth1234]

I am not mentally or physically ill. However I do feel the world is not made for empaths like me. It's too cruel, and there's always a hidden agenda behind everything and everyone. The society or the government do not care. They try to showcase they do. But we are all trying to one-up each other, and I am so done with this world, that I would take death anyday.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'm part of the small minority which replied no and I say so for very selfish reasons. I have both ill and healthy people in my life, and the fact that anyone would have access to it would make my world feel more unstable. The healthy people in my life I classify as "safe" in my mind, meaning I don't have to worry about them or prepare to receive an invite for their funeral if they aren't going through the best of times. I can depend on them to be alive any day of the week regardless of how they're doing. If they had access to that, the boundary between suicidal thoughts and the action will be non-existent, and any difficult change in their life would result in them killing themselves rather than them living like they would have if they didn't have access to it. I'm not the best at explaining things but in short I say no so I don't lose more stability in my life.

I think even people who want assisted suicide to be more widely available do also realise that suicide CAN be an impulsive act. Many people see something like a six month assessment and waiting period- in which the person is OFFERED help- as a way of ensuring that a person has truly thought out the decision. Also- that if suicide was less stigmatised to talk about- perhaps there's more chance that families would talk to one another about it- rather than it being a complete shock. Maybe even support one another more- so that the person doesn't go through with it.

I'm not so sure that- having it suddenly available would mean that people would suddenly kill themselves in droves. Especially if there were checks and waiting periods in place.

I appreciate the honesty of your answer. I have had a lot of close family members leave me via natural death. I admit- it changed me greatly. It's hard to say whether those feelings would have been worse if their deaths had been suicides. Probably. I was under 10 when 3 of my closest family members died. You're not really thinking about other people when you're that age- you're so dependant on them. If I'm honest, I struggle a bit when parents want to kill themselves- because of my own circumstances. (My Mum died first- when I was 3.)

Still- regardless of what type of pain someone is in- sometimes, they just can't take anymore. Sometimes we just feel as if we CAN'T go on living for the sake of others. Still- I do understand your fears around making it 'too easy'.

 

[missingpeace]

From life I learnt we can never truly learn what a person is going through, if there is ongoing suffering and desire to die then we should fulfill this request no questions asked.

 

[HayBunny23]

Yes, as long as their life choices didn't leave anyone depending on them behind, like a minor child.
When you choose to have a child(at least in the USA or most developed nations), you chose to follow thru at least until they don't legally need you anymore imo. Unless you have a spouse or someone who you know would take care of that child, then you're basically abandoning them into a system to get tortured and raped. The depression and suicidal thoughts are higher among foster kids than any other demographics of child.
I am a greater good person, so if this person is "mentally/ physically healthy" aka not in horrible pain and life is tolerable, it's best overall to force a few more years out of them. I'd rather force someone who already wants to die to stick around to raise their kids, then force the whole next generation to kill themselves too. Obviously if the person is sick or hurting the kids, then they might as well get dumped into the system, but we are implying the person is "healthy" and able to care for them. That's my opinion tho, and you know what they say about those.

 

[Caoine01]

It's too cruel, and there's always a hidden agenda behind everything and everyone.

In the past I also thourght "there's always a hidden agenda behind everything and everyone".
Nowerdays I am shure mankind follows thier old instinct since we learned to use the fire.
In princible we act in the same way as cavemans, but in combination with modern livestyle and over population this is the world we are faced to.
So I stopped to blame on them.

 

[itsallpointless]

Healthy people can ctb themselves. Others who are disabled and unable to do so should get dibs

 

[BBBB]

Yes.

 

[eashanm]

Free Will. Willful Death.

 

[bestroper]

of course

 

[todiefor]

I think we would have another type of society if assisted suicide was allowed. It would make people more cautious of being mean to each other, at least that is what I am hoping for. I believe that if someone knows (for real) that their action could very well lead to that person committing suicide.. they would not want to have that on their conscience. People in general are pretty distant to imagining someone killing themselves by the traditional means of suicide. However if they knew that painless suicide at a hospital was only a phone call away.. people might reconsider their ways of acting and start being nicer to each other. And we would certainly not spend resources on mediocre therapists etc the society in general would have to step up their game to create a more livable and enjoyable standard of living for their population to not want to make them leave this place.. otherwise they would lose all their tax revenues. Only the ones that enjoy life would be living, creating a wonderful community, now lots of people are trapped between a horrible life or the fact that they will have to rely on gruesome methods to leave..

What a lovely thought :), that would be giving people rights as well as making society better, which is really so difficult to achieve. I currently am not sure if I have such a charitable view of society in general. Another way of looking at it might be that with the rights to assisted suicide individuals will also have to take full responsibility for their choices to do so, maybe they will have to sign a waiver to clear people's conscience lol. That might be taking it too far. I really liked your post and view of a better world.

 

[Suicidebydeath]

100% yes.

It frustrates me when I read that the are only considering terminal illnesses if giving the matter any consideration at all here. I don't have a terminal illness, my life is still miserable, full of suffering, loneliness and pain. I don't have a family besides people I care about, and I don't do anything. Just let me die in peace, finally. I am tired of carrying on for so long with no end in sight. I know what needs to be done, but it's "not allowed".

 

[autistascetic]

opposition to people's right to bodily autonomy (not even a contentious, controversial issue like abortion where the second life has no say in the matter) is based purely out of selfishness. they care not one bit for the victims. only themselves and their own selfish motives.

it's vindictive to say but i hope every one of these people whose friends/family they deny the right to end their life experience the loss. let them cope and make up stories about how their loved ones were driven to suicide by malicious internet users, let them rewrite the facts around the deaths but at the end of the day they are fully aware that it's their responsibility as loved ones to take care of the psychological needs of their family. and they failed. and any mental suffering resulting from that is well-deserved and i hope it haunts them indefinitely. perhaps when the cope wears off and they themselves are driven to this end, maybe then they are deserving of some sympathy.

 

[Nlis2244]

Yes, the freedom do dispose of one's own body is a basic and essential human right

 

[Kera]

If I were healthy, I would have no reason not to want to live.

When I was in the psychiatric ward, I met a healthy 40-year-old man who was fed up with his life. He wanted for nothing. He had simply seen enough of the world. He had everything most people would dream of. Yet he wanted to die. As soon as one expresses this death wish, you count as mentally ill. Diagnosis: Depression!

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The death wish from a psychiatric perspective

A person's desire to end their life is a pathological condition.

Modern anthropology, biology, psychology and sociology have well documented that people are born with a highly differentiated disposition towards a social way of life. In a trusting relationship with his mother, father, siblings, grandparents and other people who are important to him, he can grow into an independent personality capable of relating. From the very beginning it is designed to connect with you and not as an autonomous individual. However, this natural bond means nothing other than the inner orientation of the human being to the other and the full development of his personality with and through social cooperation. This cooperation must be taken up, promoted and formed in the child in the interpersonal interaction,

Independence includes taking on social responsibility, developing compassion and being able to accept help as part of life. The successful process of personality or character development is based on the "basic trust" acquired in the first relationships, which enables people to hope for human help later in the most difficult situations in life and to actively seek and make use of it. Such a person will not see his or her worth and dignity jeopardized by accepting help.

It is a natural human need to want to live. In this sense, a person's desire to end their life is always a pathological condition that arises when an external life situation (loss, separation, financial problems, political pressure, mental illness, but also fear of exams, fear of coping with a work or similar) seems unmanageable to a person with their "inner equipment".

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According to the definition of the WHO, health is on the one hand the "state of complete physical, mental and social well-being", on the other hand also a "fundamental human right".

What does health mean in medicine?
"Health is the state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity."

I am an advocate for assisted suicide, but not in healthy people.
I am amazed that so many users voted yes.

With the legalization of euthanasia, people could feel obliged to kill themselves, warns a German palliative care doctor.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Such a person will not see his or her worth and dignity jeopardized by accepting help.

I found your reply to be REALLY interesting. Most especially this part. I do happen to think your whole passage on healthy mental development could well be right...

But- what about the people that haven't had that stable grounding in life? According to that passage- that could well be the majority of people here. It could well be the majority of people in general actually. Do you really think we are such a caring and nurturing world now?

I reckon most people here have had bad experiences needing and/or asking for help. At some point- people have likely abused, neglected or abandoned us- so- we learn NOT to rely on others. It isn't safe to rely on others. That lesson is further reinforced if we begin to trust again and people let us down AGAIN.

Personally- I think it's unfair to expect people who have become suicidal for a reason- likely because people have been shit to them- to open themselves up to trust again because- that's the 'normal' way to behave. That's just me though. Maybe that's overly cynical. I've known some lovely people in life though- lovely but utterly unreliable. People are too busy these days to look after strays.

I think the idea that anyone can get over their ideation (providing they are healthy) is an idea based on a fairytale version of this world. I don't think you can realistically expect this world to change- so that places all the onus on the suicidal person. Even though they don't want to live and don't want to try- they have to because they're told it's abnormal otherwise? What if we don't want to conform?

By the way though- I agree with that paliative doctor. I think- if assisted dying is legalised for more people- there needs to be a thorough assessment procedure to make sure people aren't being coerced and that it is their prefered solution over anything else.

 

[Kera]

But- what about the people that haven't had that stable grounding in life? According to that passage- that could well be the majority of people here. It could well be the majority of people in general actually. Do you really think we are such a caring and nurturing world now?

Referring to the question: Should "healthy" people have access to euthanasia, I really just focused on the healthy. We are talking about something, but what is health anyway?
Health is defined positively: as a state of comprehensive physical, mental and social well-being.

Forever Sleep said:
"I don't think you can realistically expect this world to change- so that places all the onus on the suicidal person. Even though they don't want to live and don't want to try- they have to because they're told it's abnormal otherwise? What if we don't want to conform?"

How true!! I've seen this happen too many times. In the beginning they help you. But as soon as you swim against the tide, you have to dance after their whistle.
If you don't, you'll be forcibly admitted and stuffed with pills. You take part in therapies. Eventually they will discharge you. It's up to you whether you become a revolving door patient or not.