SaSu and Leftism

[Abandoned Character]

I've seen people discussing Candace Owens here. Many self-identifying incels around here as well. A little anti-vax talk here and there. Like with any online public space, I have no issue with the diverse thinking that takes place within its bounds. In fact, I welcome disagreement for the sake of seeking a solution together (although I have little patience for dishonesty). The things I mention are usually associated with right-wing discourse and ideology, which is curiuous to me because I see the underlying ideas of Sanctioned Suicide to be very leftist.

Disclaimer: I do not have a great understanding of the political landscape of the US, being a citizen of the country it is the only context that I know. I'm sure there are some of you out there more well read in the political philosophy I may be referencing.

The main comparison between SaSu and leftism is the pro-choice philosophy. Actually thinking about assisted suicide legislation leads one down a path of seeking solutions to people's mental health issues, at the minimum. I see a lot of right-wing discourse centered around perpetuating the suffering of others (homophobia/transphobia/misogyny, for example) and I do not see how such thinking is compatible with the endeavors of living in a world where we allow others to freely take their own lives. Hence, SaSu is incompatible with right-wing philosophy.

Thoughts? Is my understanding of these political ideas lacking?

 

[Brown-Jacket Revy]

Hence, SaSu is incompatible with right-wing philosophy.

True.

I don't think most people here are 100% right-wing, though.

Most just have a few views from column A, and a few views from column B.

Like, I have some views that would be considered "right-wing" by the left, but I'm certainly not a conservative.

The media (TV and online) pushes this idea that one can't have any nuance in their political beliefs.

 

[Aergia]

I see a lot of right-wing discourse centered around perpetuating the suffering of others (homophobia/transphobia/misogyny, for example) and I do not see how such thinking is compatible with the endeavors of living in a world where we allow others to freely take their own lives.

But from the perspective of right-wingers, they're not actively trying to perpetuate the suffering of others. Most people aren't sadists. They truly think their beliefs are what's best for individuals and/or society. Sure, said beliefs might be motivated less by rationality and more by religious fundamentalism, for instance, but few people out there are just straight up evil.

Disclaimer— I'm not right-wing or American (I am chronically online, so I find American politics unavoidable, but my knowledge in that regard is admittedly superficial).

With that being said, I think the belief that others should be able to freely take their own lives is a socially libertarian one, and I think plenty of right-wingers would consider themselves libertarians— at least in some aspects of life. For instance, typically right-wing beliefs like appreciation for the second amendment or opposition to the implementation of mandatory vaccinations are rooted in libertarianism. So I don't think pro-choice philosophy is necessarily inconsistent with right-wing ideology.

That said, SS does seem to lean left to me and I've always perceived posts about inceldom or the one about Owens as exceptions to the rule.

 

[GriffonGuard]

I see a lot of right-wing discourse centered around perpetuating the suffering of others (homophobia/transphobia/misogyny, for example) and I do not see how such thinking is compatible with the endeavors of living in a world where we allow others to freely take their own lives. Hence, SaSu is incompatible with right-wing philosophy.

You have a very reductive way of thinking about left-right ideology. I suspect you get a lot of your ideas from viewing the American partisan culture war.

Right-wing ideology is not inherently bigoted or centered around "perpetuating suffering", and left-wing ideology is not inherently compassionate. Claiming so is as flawed as, for example, claiming that communism is inherently genocidal.

Both sides encompass a very large range of political ideologies, and they vary in every country and every culture. I would argue that in many places, right-wing ideology emphasizes individual liberty over the "common good", including the right to end one's own life.

 

[SexyIncél]

Let's say that real, historical leftism is committed to reason & the underdog. Uncontroversial examples are Noam Chomsky & bell hooks.

Let's say that these aren't leftists: Barack Obama (a war criminal who called his policies "moderate 1980's Republican") & Vladimir Lenin (a dictator who denounced "infantile ultra-leftism"). They may mention some views anyone might like, but so did kings

Sasu has leftist attributes. Concern for sufferers, and the mechanisms causing suffering. Also unusual amounts of free speech

But sasu also has non-leftist attributes. Many preach dying alone, rather than share skills to effectively team up. No organizing to solve shared problems, even when fairly safe. Unless you're lucky, you get little more than a sympathetic ear here. Historically, leftism's measured by actions, not opinions

Candace Owens & the manosphere do offer solutions. But ones rooted in elite-friendly power structures. Like chess players, they exploit leftist mistakes and have every right to have genuinely useful solutions worth stealing

Let's take the manosphere. bell hooks said: "Once the 'new man' that is the man changed by feminism was represented as a wimp, as overcooked broccoli dominated by powerful females who were secretly longing for his macho counterpart, masses of men lost interest. Reacting to this inversion of gender roles, men who were sympathetic chose to stop trying to play a role in female-led feminist movement and became involved with the men's movement. Positively, the men's movement emphasized the need for men to get in touch with their feelings, to talk with other men. Negatively, the men's movement continued to promote patriarchy by a tacit insistence that in order to be fully self-actualized, men needed to separate from women."

In that book, she even criticized herself, admitting she freaked out after she finally convinced a boyfriend to share his feelings, because it challenged her image of "the strong man": "Most women do not want to deal with male pain if it interferes with the satisfaction of female desire." And observed another boyfriend, who started gentle & anti-patriarchy — but ignored. Then has he grew more macho & sexist, he got respect and more women were drawn to him

And Noam Chomsky mentioned the danger of left cancel culture: "another massive service to the right wing. Just as breaking up a meeting of somebody you don't like is a service to the right wing. You want to play their game? Do it straight. Don't pretend you're on the left."

 

[R_N]

I wouldn't like to be labeled as either because how often people fall into group think and relentlessly attack anything that deviates from said groups.

That is one of the most sickening traits I saw humans (and sometimes myself) express since I was a kid. Labeling each other and automatically assigning stereotypical traits to fuel hatred.

 

[real person]

i think most people on here aren't very political lol

 

[Abandoned Character]

And Noam Chomsky mentioned the danger of left cancel culture: "another massive service to the right wing. Just as breaking up a meeting of somebody you don't like is a service to the right wing. You want to play their game? Do it straight. Don't pretend you're on the left."

This entire response is very well reasoned and gives me with a greater understanding of leftism. I especially like the Chomsky interview you shared, I read the whole thing and found everything he said very interesting. Also, I never considered the response of men to 3rd wave feminism that Bell Hooks explains. Thanks for sharing.

Right-wing ideology is not inherently bigoted

Pro-choice philosophy and legislation necessitates effectively treating people's mental illness. Perhaps the word I am looking for is progressive, not leftist. Pardon my ignorance, I honestly do not have a strong enough understanding of the labels to differentiate them. A lot of change of status quo would have to happen if one were politically invested in the founding principles of Sanctioned suicide, and conservativism is strongly invested in maintaing the status quo (in fact, many are interested in returning to the status quo times when some demographics had less rights). That is where I get the impression that I mentioned.

i think most people on here aren't very political lol

This is fair.

 

[Mistiie]

True.

I don't think most people here are 100% right-wing, though.

Most just have a few views from column A, and a few views from column B.

Like, I have some views that would be considered "right-wing" by the left, but I'm certainly not a conservative.

The media (TV and online) pushes this idea that one can't have any nuance in their political beliefs.

This is a really good take to have. The world in general is suffering from a lack of nuance today, and that's a result of the radicalisation of basically everything. I don't even think I can blame it on people either. An example of this is the Israel-Hamas war. You have people saying Israel should win and obliterate the remnants of Gaza, and others saying "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" and wanting Israel to be destroyed. The nuanced (and, in my opinion, correct) take is that both sides are filled with innocents and horrible people alike, and that those fighting the wars are the terrible ones, not the country as a whole. But nope, people just seem to think it's like a football match; I support this team, you support that team.

The main comparison between SaSu and leftism is the pro-choice philosophy. Actually thinking about assisted suicide legislation leads one down a path of seeking solutions to people's mental health issues, at the minimum. I see a lot of right-wing discourse centered around perpetuating the suffering of others (homophobia/transphobia/misogyny, for example) and I do not see how such thinking is compatible with the endeavors of living in a world where we allow others to freely take their own lives. Hence, SaSu is incompatible with right-wing philosophy.

Thoughts? Is my understanding of these political ideas lacking?

I wouldn't say that it's necessarily incompatible, but it definitely doesn't fit very well. You're on the right lines though, absolutely; right-wing ideology (and not as in the slightly right-wing boomer dad type, I'm talking fully moderate/extreme right-wing) is centred around conservative values, as well as another far less obvious theme of 'purity'. I haven't really seen anyone else describe that second theme much at all, but if you think about it, a lot of right-wing beliefs hold true when you think about it in that context. Removing immigrants and kicking them out of the country is maintaining racial and ethnic purity. A free market untainted by government intervention is economic purity. Removing minorities in the form of sexual 'deviants' and gender non-conforming individuals is sexual and expressive purity. Not every form of purity or maintenance and upholding of the 'typical' social hierarchy is necessarily a bad thing, because if it was, we wouldn't have anything similar to the 'right wing' today, but it's more often than not a negative aspect misrepresented as something just or righteous for a country's people.

That idea of purity, as well as the conservative beliefs, is why right-wing ideologies not only don't fit here, but don't tend to work in general when you have people who think against the system, like SaSu users do (as corny as that is to say, it does work, no?) Purity, in both reality and online, never works. There will always be an imbalance, an outlier, and those outliers flock to SaSu like rats in New Orleans, because that's the very nature of SaSu. Right-wing beliefs tend to actively oppose the existence and presence of those outliers, so why would those outliers support those beliefs? Additionally, the idea of pro-choice/voluntary suicide without intervention is a relatively progressive idea; never before in human history have we had so many ways and so many people capable of opting to live or to die freely. That has never been the case before, and conservatives are focused on, well, conserving traditional beliefs (in line with the idea of 'purity'.) Voluntary suicide without intervention is progressive and not a traditional idea, so right-wing people oppose it far more than those on the left, which only spurs people to move towards left-wing ideas.

You have a very reductive way of thinking about left-right ideology. I suspect you get a lot of your ideas from viewing the American partisan culture war.

It's pretty hard not to nowadays...basically every country is mimicking the system the United States created because it works so well in radicalising both sides into a select set of views. It's an unfortunate state to be in and I don't even think you can blame the people for doing this nowadays when it's effectively the norm.

I would argue that in many places, right-wing ideology emphasizes individual liberty over the "common good", including the right to end one's own life.

I think that you would be right once upon a time, but I wouldn't say that this applies today, unfortunately. A lot of things today are masked in the notion that it's to protect a 'freedom' that an individual has, but with a lot of things in politics today, those views are fuelled solely by money, power, and the view from the majority. Look at a lot of right-wing politicians today in America (I know you're probably not interested in using this as an example given how big and complex a shitshow it is, but let's face it, almost everywhere is going to be like this soon); they promise certain liberties to people such as guns, or lower taxes, but will shun other liberties that are viewed as ideas that are 'left-wing' like abortions or LGBTQ+ rights or other forms of social justice (or at least most right-wing politicians would; there might be a select few I'm not aware of that embody what original right-wing politics represented, but I would be hard pressed to find any). What I'm trying to say here is that right-wing politics used to be focused on freedoms but it's shifting/has shifted to basically being a "What do the people want?" style. It's not about freedoms anymore, it's about maintaining power and gathering wealth for the politicians and they'll do that by any means necessary, including betraying the idea of spreading 'freedom' by neglecting that freedom to people their voter base don't like. You're not wrong in saying that it did promise liberty once upon a time, and that's why it's held power for such a long time; it never used to be oppressive for the sake of maintaining power and wealth. It actually did promise and emphasise liberty. It just doesn't anymore, or at least not for the same reasons...

 

[Little_Suzy]

This site is so left!

If SaSu was a country, it would be Cuba.

But I sense a party divide.

The Actives choose to stay in Cuba.

The Passives chug-a-long to Miami!