Roe vs. Wade overturned

[Someone123]

You have a different point of view on this topic- but there are plusses and minuses on both sides, but it's a matter of what a person prioritizes- I prioitize protecting the baby's life, others prioritize a woman not having to carry a child to term- there is nothing to debunk here, it's just a matter of which priority people think is most important, and people disagree on this. But unlike so many people on the other side of the issue, I have consistently communicated in a respectful way, while making points that other people disagree with.

 

[Someone123]

This is a cognitive dissonance that cannot be broken.

There is no cognitive dissonance. I have one point of view on the issue and you have another. If the choice is between the baby's life being ended or the mother carrying the baby to term, I believe it is more important to protect the baby's life, and you believe that it is more important to protect the mother's ability to stop the pregnancy. It's a matter of which priority people think is most important. SInce the baby cannot defend itself in this situation I do believe it is importnat for others to try to protect this baby, to try to keep this baby alive. Others don't think of it as a baby at this point, it's a matter of how people look at things- people disagree on many political topics, and many political topics are a matter of life and death in one way or another.

 

[ConstantPain]

We all started as fetuses and we were all alive as fetuses, and the goal of abortion is to kill the living fetus which is in the process of growing into a child- I just think that this is very wrong, just shockingly mean.

You may not have directed your comments at me but you made them.

 

[Someone123]

You may not have directed your comments at me but you made them.

We are debating the topic of abortion, so of course people on both sides of the issue will say things that the people on the other side disagree with- that's how it works when you have a debate with someone you disagree with. People who are pro-life see that stopping the life of the fetus as basically killing a baby (in the early stages of being a baby) and people who are pro-choice see things differently. It's true that I am presenting my own point of view on this while trying to communicate in a respectful way- I do think the living baby/fetus/or whatever else people want to call it is a life worth defending, especially since this living entity cannot defend itself. It is at a stage we have all lived through in the early parts of our lives. Pro-choice people see things differently.

 

[ConstantPain]

We are debating the topic of abortion, so of course people on both sides of the issue will say things that the people on the other side disagree with- that's how it works when you have a debate with someone you disagree with. People who are pro-life see that stopping the life of the fetus as basically killing a baby (in the early stages of being a baby) and people who are pro-choice see things differently. It's true that I am presenting my own point of view on this while trying to communicate in a respectful way- I do think the living baby/fetus/or whatever else people want to call it is a life worth defending, especially since this living entity cannot defend itself. It is at a stage we have all lived through in the early parts of our lives. Pro-choice people see things differently.

I am fine with having differences of opinion and having debates. Anytime false information is presented in a debate, the other side is going to call it out, which is what a lot of us have done. I do appreciate that you've ceased with the pictures with false information.

However, once someone crosses the line with name-calling or judgemental statements, the debate goes off the rails.
In general, I think of this site as a supportive place where people with similar struggles find some comfort. So when a thread turns into a quasi-debate dominated by someone insisting that something that was legal (and still is in many places) is wrong, "mean", and equivalent to a felony murder, it seems counterproductive. Neither of us is going to change the others mind so can we please end this? Wouldn't you rather be with more like minded people in a supportive space?

 

[littlelungs]

I feel like the people behind this are rubbing their hands "Yes... gooooood... more suffering... I'm afraid your abortion laws will be quite inoperable when your friends arrive."

This is just more suffering that could be easily avoided just by giving people choice and control over their own lives and bodies.

^ Exactly. This is going to cause even more suffering that could have been avoidable – bringing new life (and therefore capable of profound suffering) into the world, causing suffering to people who cannot medically/financially/psychologically handle pregnancy, childbirth and/or being parents (which will cause even more unnecessary suffering for the child), etc etc et-fucking-cetera, as if there wasn't already enough suffering in the world to begin with.

I'm so unfathomably disturbed over this and my heart goes out to everyone who has been, can and will be affected by this. This world is so fucked up... so let's bring more people into it. Make it make sense.

 

[WhiteRabbit]

This is why sometimes it's better to vote for the lesser of two evils. So many people sat out the 2016 election and now we have this dogshit Supreme Court for the foreseeable future.

 

[Someone123]

I am fine with having differences of opinion and having debates. Anytime false information is presented in a debate, the other side is going to call it out, which is what a lot of us have done. I do appreciate that you've ceased with the pictures with false information.

However, once someone crosses the line with name-calling or judgemental statements, the debate goes off the rails.
In general, I think of this site as a supportive place where people with similar struggles find some comfort. So when a thread turns into a quasi-debate dominated by someone insisting that something that was legal (and still is in many places) is wrong, "mean", and equivalent to a felony murder, it seems counterproductive. Neither of us is going to change the others mind so can we please end this? Wouldn't you rather be with more like minded people in a supportive space?

I did not post any false information with one possible exception- saying the fetus or zygote or whatever was eight weeks, which is what it said I the website I took it from, and one other person said it was 10 weeks and another said 11 weeks- it's really not clear which is correct, but it is cleazr that this splitting of hairs is completely irrelevant to the basic general idea that there is a lot of detailed development of this entity evrry early early in the pregnancy.

I just keep responding to people who respond to my posts - it's no attempt6 to domintae in any way, as long as people keep respnding to my posts in ways that seem unfairly criticsal to me I will respond. Stopping this living entity's life does seem very mean to me, since this entity did nothing to deserve this- that is my opinion. I did not say that it was equivalewnt to a felony murder, I'm not sure where it lies in comparison to that, and I don't really need to form an opinion on that. I would like to leave this subject but is there is unfair criticism I will respond to it. People have different opinions on this and many other political subjects, many of which have life and death consequences.

 

[Lost in a Dream]

You have a different point of view on this topic- but there are plusses and minuses on both sides, but it's a matter of what a person prioritizes- I prioitize protecting the baby's life, others prioritize a woman not having to carry a child to term- there is nothing to debunk here, it's just a matter of which priority people think is most important, and people disagree on this. But unlike so many people on the other side of the issue, I have consistently communicated in a respectful way, while making points that other people disagree with.

I can appreciate how hard you tried to be civil in this thread. I know you've been called a troll in here, but I don't think that's what you are. Real trolls don't actually care about these kinds of topics, they just say whatever they think will make someone upset because it's amusing to them, but I never got that impression from any of your posts.

Since this thread first started, I've come to realize that both sides have good points as well. I think I'm a bit biased in favor of abortion just because I often wish I had been aborted in the first place, and I'm probably not the only one. If we lived in a world where our right to die was respected and euthanasia was available for all adults, then I would be more likely to take your side, but since it's not, I can't understand how my mom aborting me would've been a bad thing if she did it.

It's admirable that you want to protect those who can't protect themselves though. I'm curious to know what you think of the idea of artificial womb technology. If it turns out to be a viable alternative to abortion, do you think that kind of technology would be a good compromise between both sides of this issue?

Link for more info: https://jme.bmj.com/content/44/11/751

 

[Chinaski]

This is why sometimes it's better to vote for the lesser of two evils. So many people sat out the 2016 election and now we have this dogshit Supreme Court for the foreseeable future.

It's a bit of a leap imo to somehow link those who were legitimately unenthused by Hillary Clinton with this, I've seen a fair few takes along these lines (including a fair few prominent centrist big brains suggesting Bernie Sanders is responsible) and l think using this as a further excuse to punch left is a mugs game.

 

[NSA]

- it's really not clear which is correct, but it is cleazr that this splitting of hairs is completely irrelevant to the basic general idea that there is a lot of detailed development of this entity evrry early early in the pregnancy.

Honest mistake it may have been, I have to disagree with this bit. Timeframes are extremely important for accuracy. Doing our best to be as accurate as possible is the only way we can know anything with any kind of certainty. A lot can happen in a week.

 

[Someone123]

I can appreciate how hard you tried to be civil in this thread. I know you've been called a troll in here, but I don't think that's what you are. Real trolls don't actually care about these kinds of topics, they just say whatever they think will make someone upset because it's amusing to them, but I never got that impression from any of your posts.

Since this thread first started, I've come to realize that both sides have good points as well. I think I'm a bit biased in favor of abortion just because I often wish I had been aborted in the first place, and I'm probably not the only one. If we lived in a world where our right to die was respected and euthanasia was available for all adults, then I would be more likely to take your side, but since it's not, I can't understand how my mom aborting me would've been a bad thing if she did it.

It's admirable that you want to protect those who can't protect themselves though. I'm curious to know what you think of the idea of artificial womb technology. If it turns out to be a viable alternative to abortion, do you think that kind of technology would be a good compromise between both sides of this issue?

Link for more info: https://jme.bmj.com/content/44/11/751

I'm not sure how an artificial womb would work- if the enetity in question could be removed anm dput into an artifial womb safely, I think that would be ok. I am open to pretty much all of the type of exception cases that are mentioned. If is was more accepted for young overwhelmed mothers to put a baby up for adoption that would be a good thing- it's easy to do but pressure from family and friends is what makes this tough.

 

[ConstantPain]

I'm glad there's the acknowledgement that pressure from family and friends can make putting a baby up for adoption difficult. Here's why I'm so happy I didn't do that...
Having juvenile RA was miserable, as was being poor and not having a father.
When I got pregnant (NOT a hook-up and birth control failed) the father and I were both full-time students and struggling to get by on part-time jobs.
A sister of mine and her partner were desperately trying to adopt at the time. There was no way I could have the baby and give it to anyone else. This made it seem particularly messy.
I did not want to pass on bad genes and always had wished I was never born. My mother had always joked that I was her only sickly child and she thought her body just didn't have any good genes left for me.
Tragically, my sister died in 2004 very unexpectedly. She and her partner had broken up several years prior.
So, not only would I have risked passing on painful conditions and bad genes in a world that's torture, my child would have lost 2 mother's by the age of 7. The poor thing would have already been given up by it's bio mother and father, been through parents separating, and then gotten the news that their Mommy died Their whole world would have shattered. My sister would have had full custody because she wasn't married and I would only have done things legally with her.
So I can't help but think thank goodness I aborted that fetus with no brain waves and spared it from suffering all of that!

As an aside, I 've always been kind of proud of my family for not contributing to overpopulation. I was the youngest of 8 and from us, only 6 grandchildren were born and they've further dropped it to 3 great grandchildren. Since us humans are destroying the planet and our water supply continues to diminish, it seems wise not to procreate.

 

[freedompass]

I've had three abortions. No regrets, far from it. Best decisions I ever made. I was severely mentally unwell and preyed upon. Not in a position to consent so it was basically rape. I also have one troubled adult child. He would have gone for adoption and in hindsight it would've been for the best. My mum decided to intervene and on the basis that she would be the primary carer, the social services let us keep him. I couldn't really cope as a single parent (well who knew) and after I had a massive breakdown (having barely coped for five years) she lasted one week before putting him in care aged 8. I will never forgive what she did or that she denied all responsibility while he and I have both been suicidal for the last decade.

So in terms of abortion. I am as you might expect, very much pro choice. I don't think elderly men should ever be the ones instrumental in passing laws on this. Abstract arguments about when a foetus becomes a baby are of zero interest to me. Clearly abortions should be done as early as possible. I heartily wish I had been aborted myself since no 'good times' can ever compensate or balance the suffering I've had to endure. My mum was a selfish piece of shit who liked having a cute baby to play with. . Don't get me wrong, I do love my mum and try my best to make sure she feels cared for now she's old. But yeah. Trying to be a mother while barely able to care for myself fucked up at least two people's lives. I will very likely carry that unbearable guilt and regret to my last breath.

 

[WhiteRabbit]

It's a bit of a leap imo to somehow link those who were legitimately unenthused by Hillary Clinton with this, I've seen a fair few takes along these lines (including a fair few prominent centrist big brains suggesting Bernie Sanders is responsible) and l think using this as a further excuse to punch left is a mugs game.

I think that when Donald Trump is the other candidate and Evangelicals have their claws deep into your government, sometimes it's best to vote strategically. I wasn't enthused by HC either.

 

[Chinaski]

I think that when Donald Trump is the other candidate and Evangelicals have their claws deep into your government, sometimes it's best to vote strategically. I wasn't enthused by HC either.

Well yeah, l just think in light of this it's a bit weird to blame those on the left for not falling in line and doing as they were told six years ago, punching left is very much the standard centrist commentariat response to everything bad and endorsing the view that the left must fall in line *or else* is a fool's errand imo.

 

[WhiteRabbit]

Well yeah, l just think in light of this it's a bit weird to blame those on the left for not falling in line and doing as they were told six years ago, punching left is very much the standard centrist commentariat response to everything bad and endorsing the view that the left must fall in line *or else* is a fool's errand imo.

The left should have fallen in line on that particular election, imo. I'm left, and I could see the way things were going. But maybe I'm in my feelings about this too much, I'm a poor woman in the Bible Belt, and I fear things will only get worse. I'm just angry in general.

 

[Chinaski]

The left should have fallen in line on that particular election, imo. I'm left, and I could see the way things were going. But maybe I'm in my feelings about this too much, I'm a poor woman in the Bible Belt, and I fear things will only get worse.

I honestly thought nobody outside of the liberal dinner party commentariat would look at this scenario and somehow find a way to blame it on the relatively tiny pocket of people on the left who didn't vote for Hillary six years ago but here we are - fwiw if the big-brained hawkish technocrats who consider themselves entitled to political power didn't go out of their way to enthusiastically crush every popular movement to their left before demanding that those same people immediately stfu and fall in line, or better yet if they actually delivered when in office rather than repeatedly renege on promises and treat the electorate with contempt, they'd be less likely to face the voter apathy they perceive as being some kind of Stalinist purge imo.

 

[9BBN]

--

3 questions that you can't answer:

• Do you believe in assisted suicide for the brain-dead?
• How do you pronounce someone dead so you can bury them? No more heartbeat?
• Give literally any reason why a zygote could possibly possess consciousness.

 

[Someone123]

3 questions that you can't answer:

• Do you believe in assisted suicide for the brain-dead?
• How do you pronounce someone dead so you can bury them? No more heartbeat?
• Give literally any reason why a zygote could possibly possess consciousness.

All of these are completely irrelevant to my stance on this issue.

 

[NSA]

10-year-old girl denied abortion in Ohio

A 10-year-old girl was denied an abortion in Ohio after the Supreme Court ruled last week that it was overturning Roe v. Wade, demonstrating the tangible impacts that the high court’s decision is h…

thehill.com

Good times ahead...

 

[Grey-zoner]

All these judges lied. They lied about what they intended to do before getting "hired" to be a Supreme Court justice. If their real intentions regarding Roe v Wade had been known, they wouldn't have been chosen, so they all, repeatedly, faked their legal commitment to precedence. Pathetic. Perhaps lying for a job interview isn't such a bad idea after all.

 

[9BBN]

3 questions that you can't answer:

• Do you believe in assisted suicide for the brain-dead?
• How do you pronounce someone dead so you can bury them? No more heartbeat?
• Give literally any reason why a zygote could possibly possess consciousness.

All of these are completely irrelevant to my stance on this issue.

I think it's telling that you didn't answer my questions anyway. I'd wager that your answers would reveal logical inconsistency. Here's why I thought they're relevant:

1. If you support assisted suicide for the brain-dead, why wouldn't you support abortion of zygotes and early fetuses without brains? If you don't support assisted suicide for the brain-dead, then do you think families and even hospitals should be legally obligated to keep brain-dead relatives on life support?
2. To be able to state that something is alive, surely you have to be able to state when something is dead. I'm quite curious how you think society should be able to pronounce someone dead in adherence to your standard of cautiousness about life and death. If you think we can't confidently pronounce someone dead, then do you oppose funeral burials since we can't know when people are unconscious?
3. You said you're uncomfortable with abortion because you think even a zygote can possess consciousness. So I'm simply asking for literally any reason to believe a zygote can possess consciousness. And since you don't think masturbation is wrong, I'm curious why you're certain that sperm cannot possess consciousness. If you do think sperm can be conscious, why isn't masturbation wrong?

As you can see, I suspect that if we apply your own logic on abortion to my original 3 questions, you will find yourself committed to believing some controversial opinions that you probably don't honestly believe. Personally, I'm pro-choice about abortion because I don't know how you can get around these logical problems, so if you're feeling generous, I'd appreciate answers. We can agree-to-disagree afterward. I'm only asking because I'm genuinely curious. Surely you think a correct belief can stand up to this level of scrutiny.

 

[waitingforrest]

10-year-old girl denied abortion in Ohio

A 10-year-old girl was denied an abortion in Ohio after the Supreme Court ruled last week that it was overturning Roe v. Wade, demonstrating the tangible impacts that the high court’s decision is h…

thehill.com

Good times ahead...

F**K I knew this would happen. Why is there no manhunt for the excuse of a human being who r**ed a 10 year old. F**king goverment scumbags.

Aparently kids are too young to see rainbow flags and ''inappropriate content''. But old enough to give birth?????

Flipping Harry Potter is banned in some schools for promoting witchcraft, videogames are blamed for violence. Remember how parents were tossing out pokemon/yugioh cards, d&d, and heavy metal music?

Minors can't even vote yet. But old numbskulls get to make life ruining decisions for kids that can barely resist eating candy for lunch and still wear neon shirts with tacky sayings.

 

[ohhgeeitsme]

Most abortions are in the first trimester. But even in the cases of performing a late term abortion, I think the only cruel part is no anesthesia if they can feel pain. Put it to sleep first. Some of these fetuses that will be "saved" are going to grow and experience unspeakable abuse and deaths far more gruesome with their eyes wide open. Mothers have literally cooked their unwanted children alive in ovens. I can't even believe that's happened more than once.

While I find it depressing, I don't find it cruel if premature babies just fall asleep and never wake up without ever being self-aware. In a lot of cases, it will be a blessing. There are far worse things in life than never being born. A mass production of unwanted children while the earth is being set on fire by greed and resources are dwindling globally will have massive consequences that will affect everyone.. not just the mothers or children.

Since I no longer have sex with men, the only way I'd ever get pregnant is if I was raped and I live in a state where I now can't access an abortion even in that case. There is no way in hell I'm going to give life to a human being that has half of my mentally ill DNA and half of a rapist's.. I'd never forgive myself. And dont give me that crap about "maybe they'd grow up to cure cancer" yeah or maybe they'll grow up to be another Ted Bundy.. or grow up to be mentally ill and miserable like me, and my mother and her mother..

Then again, I don't believe human life is any more important than the animals people casually slaughter for food that the vast majority don't even need to survive anymore.. and I'm not even a vegetarian..

 

[summers]

All these judges lied. They lied about what they intended to do before getting "hired" to be a Supreme Court justice. If their real intentions regarding Roe v Wade had been known, they wouldn't have been chosen, so they all, repeatedly, faked their legal commitment to precedence. Pathetic. Perhaps lying for a job interview isn't such a bad idea after all.

But 4 of the 9 justices dissented. So not all of them lied.

 

[whatevs]

Then again, I don't believe human life is any more important than the animals people casually slaughter for food that the vast majority don't even need to survive anymore.. and I'm not even a vegetarian..

This is a common sentiment among misanthropes and pessimists but I don't get it. I might despise most humans but since we are around we might as well cheer for our own team. The other animals are not consuming the planet because they can't, not because they couldn't. The problems with existence are inherent to living organisms, not to humans.

Somehow I found your argument for abortion compelling, on the other hand. At this stage of humanity's development it makes sense to allow or encourage abortion.

But let me ask this. How does one get into a LATE stage abortion? Something is very wrong there, IMO. My sister, a leftist nurse, told me that in her experience many of these cases belong to young, downtrodden and intellectually inferior women (dumb, vulnerable), that might not realize they are pregnant for a astonishing amount of time. She even told me sterilization isn't far fetched for these cases. Imagine what she has seen to hold this eugenicist view while voting far-left.

Also, the beauty of sterilizing people like that is that it should satisfy those that support abortion due to antinatalism/efilism to the highest extent. Of course, it should be done with incentives and consent, nor forcefully.

 

[summers]

Also, the beauty of sterilizing people like that is that it should satisfy those that support abortion due to antinatalism/efilism to the highest extent. Of course, it should be done with incentives and consent, nor forcefully.

I don't understand why everyone is so ok with people who have shown zero ability to parent having kids. Fuck people - prove you can be a parent. I'm of the opposite opinion - you are rendered sterile/infertile UNTIL you prove you can/should have kids.

 

[whatevs]

I don't understand why everyone is so ok with people who have shown zero ability to parent having kids. Fuck people - prove you can be a parent. I'm of the opposite opinion - you are rendered sterile/infertile UNTIL you prove you can/should have kids.

Very based, perhaps too based. But that's a dystopia I'd like to be in.

 

[Someone123]

I think it's telling that you didn't answer my questions anyway. I'd wager that your answers would reveal logical inconsistency. Here's why I thought they're relevant:

1. If you support assisted suicide for the brain-dead, why wouldn't you support abortion of zygotes and early fetuses without brains? If you don't support assisted suicide for the brain-dead, then do you think families and even hospitals should be legally obligated to keep brain-dead relatives on life support?
2. To be able to state that something is alive, surely you have to be able to state when something is dead. I'm quite curious how you think society should be able to pronounce someone dead in adherence to your standard of cautiousness about life and death. If you think we can't confidently pronounce someone dead, then do you oppose funeral burials since we can't know when people are unconscious?
3. You said you're uncomfortable with abortion because you think even a zygote can possess consciousness. So I'm simply asking for literally any reason to believe a zygote can possess consciousness. And since you don't think masturbation is wrong, I'm curious why you're certain that sperm cannot possess consciousness. If you do think sperm can be conscious, why isn't masturbation wrong?

As you can see, I suspect that if we apply your own logic on abortion to my original 3 questions, you will find yourself committed to believing some controversial opinions that you probably don't honestly believe. Personally, I'm pro-choice about abortion because I don't know how you can get around these logical problems, so if you're feeling generous, I'd appreciate answers. We can agree-to-disagree afterward. I'm only asking because I'm genuinely curious. Surely you think a correct belief can stand up to this level of scrutiny.

Once the egg is fertilized and this "living entity" is growing I do not think this should be stopped from living and growing. I don't care about the details you have listed- this is my position on what I think is most ethical, that stopping this living being from living is ethically a very bad decision, because if allowed to continue to grow this baby or fetus or "living entity" could live a full, happy, long life. This"living entity" did not create itself, but now that it is living it should be allowed to continue to live is my opinion, since it did nothing to deserve to killed for. The details of your examples are not relevant to me at all, that are not relevant to my point of view on this topic at all. Millions of people are pro-life, and millions of people are pro-choice, and it will always be this way. I am not going to keep going around and around on this subject, I am allowed to have my own opinion. None of your examples are in any way relevant to my position on this subject.