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BruhXDDDDD

BruhXDDDDD

Student
Feb 18, 2022
178
i understand the confusion. i implicitly say know the same about the right, but didn't feel like it was worth saying. they're already just comically evil in many regards which makes me not as concerned about them. they're easy to immediately dismiss in my mind. which makes it annoying to me that there are a few issues they're correct about, so i can't find people who agree with me who aren't otherwise shitheads
 
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K

k1w1

Specialist
Feb 16, 2022
301
I'm planning to move to New zealand in the next few months.
DONT. This place is not some clean green lord of the Rings movie set.
It is very tolerant of all, but socially it is quite cliquey and plebeian and new immigrants report frequently on the difficulty of making friends.
Like mamy places we now have house prices, living and rental costs that will terrify you.
I pay to live alone, but I know so many people in their 40's who still live like they are at university.
If you did buy a house when it was manageable, you are one divorce from financial difficulty.
If you have any family in Europe, try some of their northern countries. If you have a US pension, go SE Asia.
I am on this site because I simply cannot afford to live. A truth I have known for around 10 years.
 
Blueberry Panic

Blueberry Panic

The Angel of Death
Jan 5, 2025
659
DONT. This place is not some clean green lord of the Rings movie set.
It is very tolerant of all, but socially it is quite cliquey and plebeian and new immigrants report frequently on the difficulty of making friends.
Like mamy places we now have house prices, living and rental costs that will terrify you.
I pay to live alone, but I know so many people in their 40's who still live like they are at university.
If you did buy a house when it was manageable, you are one divorce from financial difficulty.
If you have any family in Europe, try some of their northern countries. If you have a US pension, go SE Asia.
I am on this site because I simply cannot afford to live. A truth I have known for around 10 years.
I already have a plan for everything, I should be fine.
 
Actovania

Actovania

the same
Mar 30, 2023
71
Almost all self-declared right-wing people boil down to being evil beings full of hate and contempt for innocent people. Their existence is a result of the failure of all human societies to care for their own and teach good morals. I've never known a trans person who killed themself who didn't do it because of the unbridled wrath spread by this evil that creeps into every community on Earth. They are the opposite of what God mane humans to be. In a sinless society they would not exist.
 
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Blue Dream

Blue Dream

Student
Sep 26, 2024
131
The right v left conflict is a distraction that allows billionaires and government to enrich themselves while getting a salary from taxpayer funds, while the lower classes use what little power they have to keep each other down as they've internalized other people's prosperity comes at their own expense.

Both the left and the right politicians benefit from tax breaks for the rich, cutting all safety nets and curating perception via AI, make no mistake. Squabbling about sides just makes their lives easier.
 
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composingthefuture

composingthefuture

Member
Apr 30, 2023
23
I love political threads.
Anyways rightwing people, generally less mob mentality. Rightwing policies r generally regressive and end up taking away rights.
Left wing people, can be an annoying hivemind, but generally has more beneficial policies.

The most egregious thing imo is how trans people r politicised, I don't want to be something to be argued over, just let me live my life 😭
the song in your quote thingy is FIRE i love it
Almost all self-declared right-wing people boil down to being evil beings full of hate and contempt for innocent people. Their existence is a result of the failure of all human societies to care for their own and teach good morals. I've never known a trans person who killed themself who didn't do it because of the unbridled wrath spread by this evil that creeps into every community on Earth. They are the opposite of what God mane humans to be. In a sinless society they would not exist.
this is so real, i honestly couldnt have said it bettermyself (also alex g mentioned)
 
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Actovania

Actovania

the same
Mar 30, 2023
71
this is so real, i honestly couldnt have said it bettermyself (also alex g mentioned)
Thanks, and we should remember it is possible for them to heal. As hard as it may seem it happens more than you would think, they just need the little kernel of humanity within them to sprout. It looks like this but for your soul.
1748318053313
Unfortunately that doesn't erase the hate and suffering they spread and voted for in their life.


I also really like Mitski.
 
quins

quins

Member
May 27, 2025
81
...This seems broadly distinctive of the "do-or-die" climate of political polarization. I'm not American, though. I confess, I've always been mostly "right-wing", though I think too big a net will end up catching more than just cannable tuna.

The only thing I really have to say is that the concept of "substantive/affirmative right" doesn't have a lot of substance outside of selectively relying on "natural law", just as "separation-of-power" arguments amount to vague judicial compromises which are just not that efficient (Chevron-era litigation was more consistent, a greater constraint on partisan judges, but not well received by conservatives when the legal regime acquired a more "pro-regulatory" valence, so Clarence Thomas and his absolutism came to capture the hearts of political stratagems et al.)
 
selfaware?

selfaware?

New Member
Apr 14, 2025
3
I hate that we are living in times people are fighting over religion etc. How extremism fuels more extremism. Why can't we get along and make our choices, be respected for the consequences we shall face.

I personally have a deep hate for the right wing, because of how eerily similar it is, having grown up with narcissistic parents. All the excuses, blame shifting and control. I think if it can stunt an individual it can stunt countries lagging their growth, or at least the intellectual growth. And the whole feeling of not being able to escape since you are still stuck in this system which doesn't hear or empathize with you
I agree with you in the aspect of people fighting over other people thoughts, like, why even care what others politics opinions or even religion are. In my opinion what's affecting todays world is the polarization, quoting from you "right wing", i feel like saying "right" or "left" is wrong, why do we have to fully agree on "one side" and not get whats best for us from "each side". At the end we are all humans, no need to segregate based on anything. Sadly in this world its almost impossible to think that way, because any decision is political, we can do or not do (not getting into quantum physics xD), plus its impossible to have all the world population to agree on something. Thats why consense exists, sadly with the experience i have from my country (Argentina) and their blatant corruption, i know for a fact it exists and it sucks, probably not at the same level, but thats how it is. Its kind of an utopia to think of a world where we all respect each other, but at least we as individuals can do our own part and try to respect everyone (obviously if its something thats ethically wrong / illegal don't lol). Also what i feel today's society is lacking is "common sense" or doing their own research without falling into bias. Its impossible to not fall into any sort of bias but we should try and be the most neutral based on our own experiences. Do what's good for you without affecting others in a negative way.

Actual world/society is horrible and beautiful at the same time. We should try our best to get the beautiful part of it.
 
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Meatismoz

Meatismoz

Member
Mar 22, 2025
58
Today's right wing is actually a lot more tolerant and compassionate than today's left wing
I had a lot of hardcore leftist virtue signaling friends when I was a kid living in the city and literally about half of them were exposed for raping someone or being super predator abusers later on

Lot of narcissistic horrible people in that movement trying to project their evil shit onto other people any way they can
 
GhostInTheMachine

GhostInTheMachine

Stepping Stone
Nov 5, 2023
201
I had a lot of hardcore leftist virtue signaling friends when I was a kid living in the city and literally about half of them were exposed for raping someone or being super predator abusers later on

Lot of narcissistic horrible people in that movement trying to project their evil shit onto other people any way they can

They don't need to project much to be honest: https://www.whoismakingnews.com/#who-are-the-real-predators
like, why even care what others politics opinions or even religion are.

Because those opinions and beliefs then go on to become laws that negatively effect people's lives, that's why. There is no "reaching across the aisle" when one side is fundamentally starting with the belief that the other are a bunch of shadow-cabal super predators seeking to indoctrinate children away from "muh god". This isn't a mere difference of opinion as to whether we should buy paper or plastic bags, this is a situation where one group is watching with glee as the others are eradicated by the state. You don't just get along with that.
 
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quins

quins

Member
May 27, 2025
81
Because those opinions and beliefs then go on to become laws that negatively effect people's lives, that's why. There is no "reaching across the aisle" when one side is fundamentally starting with the belief that the other are a bunch of shadow-cabal super predators seeking to indoctrinate children away from "muh god". This isn't a mere difference of opinion as to whether we should buy paper or plastic bags, this is a situation where one group is watching with glee as the others are eradicated by the state. You don't just get along with that.
I don't know, but using "muh" in a phrase as if it were some self-demonstrating repartee to own da neocons seems a tad disingenuous... I don't know why but it seems both sides (inb4 "bothsideism!") regularly misconstrue the positions of the other, or that both lack a theory of mind for the other entirely.

This reads pretty much the same way as a white Trumpist yokel who uses "baby killer" with genuine sincerity. Granted, this has been a thing since Robert Bork...
 
GhostInTheMachine

GhostInTheMachine

Stepping Stone
Nov 5, 2023
201
I don't know, but using "muh" in a phrase as if it were some self-demonstrating repartee to own da neocons seems a tad disingenuous... I don't know why but it seems both sides (inb4 "bothsideism!") regularly misconstrue the positions of the other, or that both lack a theory of mind for the other entirely.

This reads pretty much the same way as a white Trumpist yokel who uses "baby killer" with genuine sincerity. Granted, this has been a thing since Robert Bork...

Then by all means highlight how it's disingenuous. The right wing is very much fueled by the foundation of Christian Nationalism (to the point that even right wing athiests will claim they are "culturally christian") which inevitably boils down "da bible". Are we supposed to honestly take that seriously? The right will treat any kind of gender nonconformity as "sick perverted delusions" rooted in fantasy, but the left has to pretend that mere words written by anonymous authors thousands of years ago are what we ought to operate our society on today? Words that have been twisted and morphed to mean essentially nothing as the years have gone on by the way.

If you believe in a diety, that's fine, but the rest of us aren't obliged to allow the worship of said deity to be enshrined into the state. I said earlier in this thread that the Left's shit stinks too, but the focus here is on the right wing happily marching us towards fascism.
 
quins

quins

Member
May 27, 2025
81
Then by all means highlight how it's disingenuous. The right wing is very much fueled by the foundation of Christian Nationalism (to the point that even right wing athiests will claim they are "culturally christian") which inevitably boils down "da bible". Are we supposed to honestly take that seriously? The right will treat any kind of gender nonconformity as "sick perverted delusions" rooted in fantasy, but the left has to pretend that mere words written by anonymous authors thousands of years ago are what we ought to operate our society on today? Words that have been twisted and morphed to mean essentially nothing as the years have gone on by the way.

If you believe in a diety, that's fine, but the rest of us aren't obliged to allow the worship of said deity to be enshrined into the state. I said earlier in this thread that the Left's shit stinks too, but the focus here is on the right wing happily marching us towards fascism.
The use of "muh" has always irked me as a bit facetious, for instance: "muh right to self-determination!" and "muh right to an abortion!" etc., all precede from the assumption that these are trivial.

As someone who was once strongly "right-wing", now far less--even as I grow older and thus become more tentatively aligned with the "old world mores" of my peers--I'll say that I'm neither Christian nor Culturally Christian and never was, so already I'm not sure if we're talking about the Right-Wing or just quibbling over a misrepresentation...
 
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GhostInTheMachine

GhostInTheMachine

Stepping Stone
Nov 5, 2023
201
The use of "muh" has always irked me as a bit facetious, for instance: "muh right to self-determination!" and "muh right to an abortion!" etc., all precede from the assumption that these are trivial.

As someone who was once strongly "right-wing", now far less--even as I grow older and thus become more tentatively aligned with the "old world mores" of my peers--I'll say that I'm neither Christian nor Culturally Christian and never was, so already I'm not sure if we're talking about the Right-Wing or just quibbling over a misrepresentation...

You are correct that I am deliberately reducing the significance of one's belief in a deity. I in earnest do not respect religious fundamentalism, thus using "muh" in this case is just showing my honest view on the matter. I do not see that as being disingenuous, but it would be adding a degree of facetiousness. However, I'm fine with spiritual beliefs and people having their own personal connections with the divine, just keep it out of the government.
 
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quins

quins

Member
May 27, 2025
81
You are correct that I am deliberately reducing the significance of one's belief in a deity. I in earnest do not respect religious fundamentalism, thus using "muh" in this case is just showing my honest view on the matter. I do not see that as being disingenuous, but it would be adding a degree of facetiousness. However, I'm fine with spiritual beliefs and people having their own personal connections with the divine, just keep it out of the government.
Adrian Vermule 2018 Chorley Lecture
"I believe in an 'ius', you a mere 'lex' . . . we are not the same..."
 
quins

quins

Member
May 27, 2025
81
No idea what you're trying to say with this honestly.
I was, perhaps, being slightly "facetious" in imitating those mimetic shifts that the "frogtwitter" crowd so like to use... It happens that I find the study of youth and their discontents an enlightening activity, though perhaps only to set me apart, or distance myself from, the chagrining of alcoholics and incels over the age of thirty...

I think that a large part of the political playbook is trying to juxtapose "settled law" with positive political action, balancing out campaign promises with what is actually achievable through the accepted structure of democracy. In a state of emergency, or in a degenerating polity, this is kinda hard. Not only because our understanding of political accountability doesn't always align with how power is distributed in the government, or how policies are enacted, but also because the affirmative push toward "substantive right" and rule of law considerations are sand in the gears for what people consider the "values of democracy", which from the "nonjudicial" side of the aisle amount to vague considerations about rights-based guarantees for the subjects of a state (living constitutionalists i.e leftists will advocate for, say, a constitutional guarantee to an abortion, because there are some "critical rights which no majority should be able to deny or disparage.")

I say "ius" over "lex" in the sense of Roman Law, that positive statutory law ("lex") is just not enough to achieve "structured discretion" for state actors who lack the accountability that other political entities have, for instance unelected judges and NGOs. A "lex" is only concerned with settled or expected outcomes, whereas an "ius" is rightly concerned with the general principles which constitute jurisprudence--the higher sources of law, which are derived from natural law. A lot of living constitutionalists deny natural law (except for when it comes to rights, in that case rights have an organic telos and are applied in the most general ways imaginable), as do a lot of constitutional libertarians (even conservatives do) which seems to me completely wrongheaded.

Anyway, those are my two cents. I imagine that my thoughts on political doctrine are a bit "out of touch" with the concerns of people today, partly informed by my experiences in the subcontinent and elsewhere. I had once associated with a large cohort of Communists, Trotskyites, and back then what I can now call "Bioleninists", some of whom belonged to various paramilitary organizations around the Indochinese belt; a lot of their discussions galvanised my own thinking, but ultimately led me to become disillusioned with their politics, which I saw as a Virago of fancy in the way of hopeless utopianism, the "thrill" of samizdat activity, and a pathological, almost neurotic, aversion to inequality.
These were justifiable in the context of their own governments (Thai monarchists are known for their bureaucracies) but were still nonetheless "too radical" for me. And even back then I was still a bit of a thirdworldist in Arghiri Emmanuel's sense, though only as an economic curio which had a great deal of explanatory power at the time.

Coming back to the first-world, I can't help but feel that many of the political concerns shared here are exaggerated, oftentimes treating, for instance, the right for minors to have access to hormone replacement therapy, as a "self-evident" principle which aligns perfectly with our models of governance, captured so perfectly in cheap phrases like "the government should stay out'a our 'biz" and so forth. Coupled with the moral grandstanding of our nu-liberals (the embassy shooting the other day and bsky responses, for instance), the current case for liberalism is not compelling enough for me, as it is, and I suppose I never had the youthful violence to pay progressivism any mind (a distance niece of mine, I believe, whom was still a little child in tams the last I saw her, is now a full-on "wokester" the last I hear). Granted, "rightoids" don't exactly cut it for me, so I'm not fully endorsing their own handwringing either.

TL;DR, you will have a consistent application of natural law and you will be... nationally sovereign?
 
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GhostInTheMachine

GhostInTheMachine

Stepping Stone
Nov 5, 2023
201
I was, perhaps, being slightly "facetious" in imitating those mimetic shifts that the "frogtwitter" crowd so like to use... It happens that I find the study of youth and their discontents an enlightening activity, though perhaps only to set me apart, or distance myself from, the chagrining of alcoholics and incels over the age of thirty...

I think that a large part of the political playbook is trying to juxtapose "settled law" with positive political action, balancing out campaign promises with what is actually achievable through the accepted structure of democracy. In a state of emergency, or in a degenerating polity, this is kinda hard. Not only because our understanding of political accountability doesn't always align with how power is distributed in the government, or how policies are enacted, but also because the affirmative push toward "substantive right" and rule of law considerations are sand in the gears for what people consider the "values of democracy", which from the "nonjudicial" side of the aisle amount to vague considerations about rights-based guarantees for the subjects of a state (living constitutionalists i.e leftists will advocate for, say, a constitutional guarantee to an abortion, because there are some "critical rights which no majority should be able to deny or disparage.")

I say "ius" over "lex" in the sense of Roman Law, that positive statutory law ("lex") is just not enough to achieve "structured discretion" for state actors who lack the accountability that other political entities have, for instance unelected judges and NGOs. A "lex" is only concerned with settled or expected outcomes, whereas an "ius" is rightly concerned with the general principles which constitute jurisprudence--the higher sources of law, which are derived from natural law. A lot of living constitutionalists deny natural law (except for when it comes to rights, in that case rights have an organic telos and are applied in the most general ways imaginable), as do a lot of constitutional libertarians (even conservatives do) which seems to me completely wrongheaded.

Anyway, those are my two cents. I imagine that my thoughts on political doctrine are a bit "out of touch" with the concerns of people today, partly informed by my experiences in the subcontinent and elsewhere. I had once associated with a large cohort of Communists, Trotskyites, and back then what I can now call "Bioleninists", some of whom belonged to various paramilitary organizations around the Indochinese belt; a lot of their discussions galvanised my own thinking, but ultimately led me to become disillusioned with their politics, which I saw as a Virago of fancy in the way of hopeless utopianism, the "thrill" of samizdat activity, and a pathological, almost neurotic, aversion to inequality.
These were justifiable in the context of their own governments (Thai monarchists are known for their bureaucracies) but were still nonetheless "too radical" for me. And even back then I was still a bit of a thirdworldist in Arghiri Emmanuel's sense, though only as an economic curio which had a great deal of explanatory power at the time.

Coming back to the first-world, I can't help but feel that many of the political concerns shared here are exaggerated, oftentimes treating, for instance, the right for minors to have access to hormone replacement therapy, as a "self-evident" principle which aligns perfectly with our models of governance, captured so perfectly in cheap phrases like "the government should stay out'a our 'biz" and so forth. Coupled with the moral grandstanding of our nu-liberals (the embassy shooting the other day and bsky responses, for instance), the current case for liberalism is not compelling enough for me, as it is, and I suppose I never had the youthful violence to pay progressivism any mind (a distance niece of mine, I believe, whom was still a little child in tams the last I saw her, is now a full-on "wokester" the last I hear). Granted, "rightoids" don't exactly cut it for me, so I'm not fully endorsing their own handwringing either.

TL;DR, you will have a consistent application of natural law and you will be... nationally sovereign?

I'm picking up most of what you're putting down then. I myself am just a boring anarchist that simply sees the state as a tool for herding the masses, yet still prioritizes the self-determination of individuals regardless of the specific tooling of whatever state they are constrained by. Never got into "far-leftism" because I never really found Marxism and it's subsequent offshoots particularly compelling. Fell out from libertarianism and conservatism because of their propensities to pipeline towards fascism. I'm also not one to believe in a "natural law" because law by definition is an arbitrary construct, which is in direct opposition to nature's lack of motive.

My concern with the right basically begins because of their constant encroachment on my ability to self-determination (which would've included HRT as a minor had I been younger). That encroachment is rooted specifically in the previously mentioned Christian Nationalism, which itself is rooted in a vague interpretation the bible. I refuse to allow what amounts to mere words written by "mud men" to determine how I ought to live thousands of years separated from their standards of living. More specifically, I am not interested in what the "lex" or the "ius" is because both are subject to the whims of the powerful, and their decrees shall not be my guide.
 
quins

quins

Member
May 27, 2025
81
I'm picking up most of what you're putting down then. I myself am just a boring anarchist that simply sees the state as a tool for herding the masses, yet still prioritizes the self-determination of individuals regardless of the specific tooling of whatever state they are constrained by. Never got into "far-leftism" because I never really found Marxism and it's subsequent offshoots particularly compelling. Fell out from libertarianism and conservatism because of their propensities to pipeline towards fascism. I'm also not one to believe in a "natural law" because law by definition is an arbitrary construct, which is in direct opposition to nature's lack of motive.

My concern with the right basically begins because of their constant encroachment on my ability to self-determination (which would've included HRT as a minor had I been younger). That encroachment is rooted specifically in the previously mentioned Christian Nationalism, which itself is rooted in a vague interpretation the bible. I refuse to allow what amounts to mere words written by "mud men" to determine how I ought to live thousands of years separated from their standards of living. More specifically, I am not interested in what the "lex" or the "ius" is because both are subject to the whims of the powerful, and their decrees shall not be my guide.
Natural law is definitely a real thing, insofar as law constitutes patterns of rights and obligations conferred to the subjects of a polity; the moral substance of law, then, is gradualist in nature (meaning that these are prior to rules of recognition in the positivistic sense); I also don't really believe in "blank-slateism", I'm a proponent of "negative anthropology", meaning that human nature needs to be constrained and that these constraints hold the same ontological priority with the core of moral behaviour. But we're more or less relying on the same "substance-based" application of law when it comes to things like "self-determination", which in theory shouldn't be given greater precedence over the positive law unless it follows from a higher source of law. It's carving out rights and arguing whether or not they fit in with the structured discretion of courts.

And I don't really think it is reducible to arbitrary rules written by "mudmen", since from a certain perspective the state is largely paternalistic in nature, it isn't really a question of what "skydaddy" says. As for the HRT thing, my views on the matter have been tentative at best. I think I would default to the "right-wing" position here, though not because of religion. I'm probably more of a libertarian on that issue. You're an anarchist so you probably don't want me to wax "democratic realism" anyway, which is fine since I'm probably closer to a monarchist anyhow.
 
GhostInTheMachine

GhostInTheMachine

Stepping Stone
Nov 5, 2023
201
Natural law is definitely a real thing, insofar as law constitutes patterns of rights and obligations conferred to the subjects of a polity; the moral substance of law, then, is gradualist in nature (meaning that these are prior to rules of recognition in the positivistic sense); I also don't really believe in "blank-slateism", I'm a proponent of "negative anthropology", meaning that human nature needs to be constrained and that these constraints hold the same ontological priority with the core of moral behaviour. But we're more or less relying on the same "substance-based" application of law when it comes to things like "self-determination", which in theory shouldn't be given greater precedence over the positive law unless it follows from a higher source of law. It's carving out rights and arguing whether or not they fit in with the structured discretion of courts.

And I don't really think it is reducible to arbitrary rules written by "mudmen", since from a certain perspective the state is largely paternalistic in nature, it isn't really a question of what "skydaddy" says. As for the HRT thing, my views on the matter have been tentative at best. I think I would default to the "right-wing" position here, though not because of religion. I'm probably more of a libertarian on that issue. You're an anarchist so you probably don't want me to wax "democratic realism" anyway, which is fine since I'm probably closer to a monarchist anyhow.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Natural Law then, I have found no substantive reasons on which to be convinced of it's positions. I will agree as to the necessity of constraining human nature via a guiding force that compels away the more negative aspects of it. However, that which is determined to be "negative" (and it's inverse of "positive") is necessarily arbitrary, even if there is a biological factor that compels such arbitration. Thus why I, despite Anarchism's adjoining position to Communism, was never taken in by it's arguments against Capitalism (note that I am also not a capitalist realist, although I do see Capitalism is an inevitable default when humanity regresses to the mean).

I'd agree that the state tends to act in a paternalistic manner, but the motivations (especially in religious law) are always rooted with a deference to an authority be it real or imagined. Obviously, I am not personally inclined to respect such authorities, especially when their arbitration will result in materially worse outcomes for me. My stance on the HRT "debate" is such because of being denied the ability to transition, and the subsequent negative effect that resulted. I thus advocate via the channels available to me to allow those who follow the road after me to be allowed their freedom of choice, and of course the consequences of those choices.
 
quins

quins

Member
May 27, 2025
81
We'll have to agree to disagree on Natural Law then, I have found no substantive reasons on which to be convinced of it's positions. I will agree as to the necessity of constraining human nature via a guiding force that compels away the more negative aspects of it. However, that which is determined to be "negative" (and it's inverse of "positive") is necessarily arbitrary, even if there is a biological factor that compels such arbitration. Thus why I, despite Anarchism's adjoining position to Communism, was never taken in by it's arguments against Capitalism (note that I am also not a capitalist realist, although I do see Capitalism is an inevitable default when humanity regresses to the mean).

I'd agree that the state tends to act in a paternalistic manner, but the motivations (especially in religious law) are always rooted with a deference to an authority be it real or imagined. Obviously, I am not personally inclined to respect such authorities, especially when their arbitration will result in materially worse outcomes for me. My stance on the HRT "debate" is such because of being denied the ability to transition, and the subsequent negative effect that resulted. I thus advocate via the channels available to me to allow those who follow the road after me to be allowed their freedom of choice, and of course the consequences of those choices.
I think that biological factors that compel arbitration are, by definition, nonarbitrary, but that's a product of my determinism over anything else. We might be using different senses of what constitute "negative" traits of human behaviour, which I associate with "self-destructive" tendencies of degenerating polities which work against a "common good."

I don't tend to think of political regimes as "perfectable", in the sense that a common good will need to make compromises in a regime which is premised on value pluralism. So that's probably where we might disagree, although I'm substituting "capitalism" here for "democracy" (if I understand you correctly, since both in their respective contexts are viewed as "end-states").

As for HRT, I detect a strong libertarian bent in your response, and I did say that I was a libertarian on that issue, but in the sense of parental rights rather than those of the minor (thus I don't feel that parents are "obligated" to support their dysphoric child (in cases where expected outcomes i.e potential suicide are not entirely "settled"), nor deny them care, so long as they have natural discretion in acting as "proxies" for upholding state paternalism). My thoughts on it might be a bit too lengthy to go into here, though... I honestly find your formulation a bit radical, but again my only contact with the debate has been through liberals who repeat the same tired adages, "it's a matter between myself, my child, and our doctor, not the state." I am aware of the youth rights movement, so maybe that's what you're drawing on...?
 
GhostInTheMachine

GhostInTheMachine

Stepping Stone
Nov 5, 2023
201
I think that biological factors that compel arbitration are, by definition, nonarbitrary, but that's a product of my determinism over anything else. We might be using different senses of what constitute "negative" traits of human behaviour, which I associate with "self-destructive" tendencies of degenerating polities which work against a "common good."

I don't tend to think of political regimes as "perfectable", in the sense that a common good will need to make compromises in a regime which is premised on value pluralism. So that's probably where we might disagree, although I'm substituting "capitalism" here for "democracy" (if I understand you correctly, since both in their respective contexts are viewed as "end-states").

As for HRT, I detect a strong libertarian bent in your response, and I did say that I was a libertarian on that issue, but in the sense of parental rights rather than those of the minor (thus I don't feel that parents are "obligated" to support their dysphoric child (in cases where expected outcomes i.e potential suicide are not entirely "settled"), nor deny them care, so long as they have natural discretion in acting as "proxies" for upholding state paternalism). My thoughts on it might be a bit too lengthy to go into here, though... I honestly find your formulation a bit radical, but again my only contact with the debate has been through liberals who repeat the same tired adages, "it's a matter between myself, my child, and our doctor, not the state." I am aware of the youth rights movement, so maybe that's what you're drawing on...?

The factors themselves are not arbitrary, but the decisions we derive from them will inevitably be so because each individual will have a different response to the initial factors, thus meaning that it's up to their personal whims what will be decided. This is why we can "disagree", or at least have differing perspectives on what is "positive/negative". We are both human yes, but we respond to being human in our own unique ways, which dissolves the idea that such responses are universal.

I agree with political regimes not being perfectible. Humans are naturally imperfect beings, and "perfection" as a concept is pretty vague unless we also introduce specific and consistent qualifiers. We must ask "perfect in what sense?", and even then that may be subject to change.

I do lean libertarian on HRT, radically so. Do parents *have* to support a child in their transition? I wouldn't compel such a thing, but I also would not allow parents to abuse their children by denying them access to care on their own terms (throwing out medication, clothes, other gender affirming items, etc, or beating them/ kicking them out of the home). I'm likely even more radical than liberals since I believe the matter is solely between the child and the medical professionals they opt to work with. Parents in my view have too much control with how their kids choose to grow up and often just see their children as property/extension of themselves that will do what they say or else. Parents are simply not entitled to having an obedient child, so long as that child is a stable and productive member of society.

The state also has too much control with what pretty much anybody can do with themselves as we've seen with the frequent restrictions on other matters such as drugs, abortion, porn, gambling, etc. Can an argument be made that these are "negatives" that only serve to degenerate society? Sure, but my interest does not lie with maintaining a society that will walk down the line of controlling people more and more by arbitrarily decreeing things as social ills to be eradicated for the "greater good". I see HRT bans for minors as the trojan horse that it is for adults to lose their HRT, since it's never actually about protecting children. Crossdressing/Drag bans follow suit, and then it just becomes a crime to be gender-nonconforming (Texas tried making presenting as Trans a felony). Liberals are more than willing to concede on trans issues for political expedience, so they are allies in name only.
 
quins

quins

Member
May 27, 2025
81
The factors themselves are not arbitrary, but the decisions we derive from them will inevitably be so because each individual will have a different response to the initial factors, thus meaning that it's up to their personal whims what will be decided. This is why we can "disagree", or at least have differing perspectives on what is "positive/negative". We are both human yes, but we respond to being human in our own unique ways, which dissolves the idea that such responses are universal.

I agree with political regimes not being perfectible. Humans are naturally imperfect beings, and "perfection" as a concept is pretty vague unless we also introduce specific and consistent qualifiers. We must ask "perfect in what sense?", and even then that may be subject to change.

I do lean libertarian on HRT, radically so. Do parents *have* to support a child in their transition? I wouldn't compel such a thing, but I also would not allow parents to abuse their children by denying them access to care on their own terms (throwing out medication, clothes, other gender affirming items, etc, or beating them/ kicking them out of the home). I'm likely even more radical than liberals since I believe the matter is solely between the child and the medical professionals they opt to work with. Parents in my view have too much control with how their kids choose to grow up and often just see their children as property/extension of themselves that will do what they say or else. Parents are simply not entitled to having an obedient child, so long as that child is a stable and productive member of society.

The state also has too much control with what pretty much anybody can do with themselves as we've seen with the frequent restrictions on other matters such as drugs, abortion, porn, gambling, etc. Can an argument be made that these are "negatives" that only serve to degenerate society? Sure, but my interest does not lie with maintaining a society that will walk down the line of controlling people more and more by arbitrarily decreeing things as social ills to be eradicated for the "greater good". I see HRT bans for minors as the trojan horse that it is for adults to lose their HRT, since it's never actually about protecting children. Crossdressing/Drag bans follow suit, and then it just becomes a crime to be gender-nonconforming (Texas tried making presenting as Trans a felony). Liberals are more than willing to concede on trans issues for political expedience, so they are allies in name only.
I think that the arbitrariness of preferences, or arbitrary diagnoses of current ills, are in large part shuttled out through the political apparatus, and so aren't based solely on "whimsy." "Nature does not make a jump." I'm assuming an interaction with history which informs a polity on the sort of regime which is politically operable, and so a sufficient constraint on the "negative" parts of human nature, of which I don't mean castigating "sexual liberation"-adjacent movements for their prurientism since that's a political consideration. I'm hesitant to subscribe to the relativism that "responses to an objective ill are inherently value-laden and can support equally viable solutions."

I don't think that minors are politically accountable, not because we ought to assume that they have the requisite agency, but because, in general, there's no way to ensure that they can engage productively with society without a radical revision of the surrounding wickerwork of "child welfare" law, which would include AoC laws. Parents are "rightful" proxies in the sense that your cynicism is a personal belief, and, independent of their true intentions, we just don't have a way to check their behaviour or overwrite what a parent believes to be "in the best interests of the child" unless general reasonableness dictates otherwise.

A lot of what a minor does will need to be shuttled through parental discretion. An arbitrary threshold is a bit harder to pin down, though. My libertarian stance is this: let things play out, see if long-term outcomes justify deregulation (death tolls). The substance is basically the same from both ends of the aisle. Complete deregulation = richer samples. Categorical ban = more consistent outcomes; both are outcome-driven, both view the other as "sacrificial" in nature.

I think they can be, it depends on what is workable. But those are more a part of the political process and a consequence of democracy. Abortion, for instance, doesn't really have a strong legal case imo, so my view is a "state rights" approach which follows from constitutional master principles, the "right to an abortion" is no less arbitrary, but lacks the higher source of law, and thus loses out over competing principles. Another example of this would be in the tension between "equal but seperate" and "equal protections", where the latter won out in Brown v. Board.
 
GhostInTheMachine

GhostInTheMachine

Stepping Stone
Nov 5, 2023
201
I think that the arbitrariness of preferences, or arbitrary diagnoses of current ills, are in large part shuttled out through the political apparatus, and so aren't based solely on "whimsy." "Nature does not make a jump." I'm assuming an interaction with history which informs a polity on the sort of regime which is politically operable, and so a sufficient constraint on the "negative" parts of human nature, of which I don't mean castigating "sexual liberation"-adjacent movements for their prurientism since that's a political consideration. I'm hesitant to subscribe to the relativism that "responses to an objective ill are inherently value-laden and can support equally viable solutions."

I don't think that minors are politically accountable, not because we ought to assume that they have the requisite agency, but because, in general, there's no way to ensure that they can engage productively with society without a radical revision of the surrounding wickerwork of "child welfare" law, which would include AoC laws. Parents are "rightful" proxies in the sense that your cynicism is a personal belief, and, independent of their true intentions, we just don't have a way to check their behaviour or overwrite what a parent believes to be "in the best interests of the child" unless general reasonableness dictates otherwise.

A lot of what a minor does will need to be shuttled through parental discretion. An arbitrary threshold is a bit harder to pin down, though. My libertarian stance is this: let things play out, see if long-term outcomes justify deregulation (death tolls). The substance is basically the same from both ends of the aisle. Complete deregulation = richer samples. Categorical ban = more consistent outcomes; both are outcome-driven, both view the other as "sacrificial" in nature.

I think they can be, it depends on what is workable. But those are more a part of the political process and a consequence of democracy. Abortion, for instance, doesn't really have a strong legal case imo, so my view is a "state rights" approach which follows from constitutional master principles, the "right to an abortion" is no less arbitrary, but lacks the higher source of law, and thus loses out over competing principles. Another example of this would be in the tension between "equal but seperate" and "equal protections", where the latter won out in Brown v. Board.

Nature doesn't make a jump, but humans do is my general point. There is simply no getting around that because nature does not philosophize, we do. Our philosophies can only exist filtered through our perceptions and biases. This forms the basic foundation for ideals and their resulting ideologies. I see no such thing as an "objective ill". Society could degenerate into it's sin and vices, then collapse never to recover, and none of that would speak against any sort of natural order.

As for minors being "politically accountable", society likes to pick and choose what individuals of certain ages can and can not do, rarely is their political standing taken into account. I don't see any radical revision of child welfare to be necessary in order for us to give them more ability to self-determination. It would however need to be parsed through the spectrum of responsibility that society not only allows, but also makes accessible to them. AoC laws are for sure a gate that a liberal society would not want to rattle, but this is further evidence of the relativism of political will. Many societies of the past, and even contemporary times do not share such protections.

I agree that for a significant portion of their agency, a minor will be necessarily beholden to their parents, especially at particularly younger ages, but that diminishes rapidly as they accumulate years. The threshold is as you said, arbitrary and vague to define. As such, the best we can do is a sort of "touch and go" approach where we try our best to minimize any "sacrifices" that would result from choosing one of the polar extremes.

On abortion, we have data that shows that categorical bans result in more consistent deaths, so in such a case, it would be prudent to avoid such methods. Even if you believe in the "sanctity of life", you must also acknowledge the outcomes of when females are denied abortions and then both mother and child die. The state then should step in to ensure that any regulation that is implemented is done with the goal of preventing that outcome. I will refrain from going further into that topic simply because I know my stance is extreme.
 
quins

quins

Member
May 27, 2025
81
Nature doesn't make a jump, but humans do is my general point. There is simply no getting around that because nature does not philosophize, we do. Our philosophies can only exist filtered through our perceptions and biases. This forms the basic foundation for ideals and their resulting ideologies. I see no such thing as an "objective ill". Society could degenerate into it's sin and vices, then collapse never to recover, and none of that would speak against any sort of natural order.

As for minors being "politically accountable", society likes to pick and choose what individuals of certain ages can and can not do, rarely is their political standing taken into account. I don't see any radical revision of child welfare to be necessary in order for us to give them more ability to self-determination. It would however need to be parsed through the spectrum of responsibility that society not only allows, but also makes accessible to them. AoC laws are for sure a gate that a liberal society would not want to rattle, but this is further evidence of the relativism of political will. Many societies of the past, and even contemporary times do not share such protections.

I agree that for a significant portion of their agency, a minor will be necessarily beholden to their parents, especially at particularly younger ages, but that diminishes rapidly as they accumulate years. The threshold is as you said, arbitrary and vague to define. As such, the best we can do is a sort of "touch and go" approach where we try our best to minimize any "sacrifices" that would result from choosing one of the polar extremes.

On abortion, we have data that shows that categorical bans result in more consistent deaths, so in such a case, it would be prudent to avoid such methods. Even if you believe in the "sanctity of life", you must also acknowledge the outcomes of when females are denied abortions and then both mother and child die. The state then should step in to ensure that any regulation that is implemented is done with the goal of preventing that outcome. I will refrain from going further into that topic simply because I know my stance is extreme.
We probably won't agree on that then. For the record, I consider "sin and vice" as containing less substance than "collapse", though societies which "slouch toward Gomorrah" will reveal structural deficiencies in the obligations set by an ius. Again, we don't seem to agree.

I don't mean unaccountability as an ascription, and I do recognize that minors will have politically orientation and have a vested interest in their livelihoods, and what I mean to say by a "radical revision" is that it's currently unfeasible to champion something as vague and unworkable as "self-determination" without reformulating our regard for parental discretion entirely. You can lower the minimum age for voting, I suppose, but if the only reason backending that decision is "self-determination", again not aligning with any higher source but simply as a necessary concession for allowing youth this right in other regards, then I see that as likely incompatible with the current political and legal regime, probably too "utopian" in a sense. I do, however, agree that AoC laws are tendentious. I don't think that's enough to demonstrate a complete relativism of a "political will" (I'm assuming you mean voting preferences, which I never claimed were "absolutes" in any regard, since this is an artifact of democracies where my general point doesn't rely on electoral power, hence why I say that these are issues of the "political process" and hence the issues to be diagnosed).

The onus falls on you to demonstrate that this would really be workable, but again I'm agnostic between the two options I pointed to earlier, partly due to my distaste for "institutional disruption" where it is not needed. I used the term "sacrifices" in the sense that both sides of the aisle view eachother as "sacrificing" youth in favor of a political prerogative, so a categorical ban seems just as feasible, if not more, when legal circumstances are taken into account. Granted, we've yet to see how Skrmetti plays out.

That may be, but that's not a constitutional guarantee, so "prudence" in itself is part of policymaking, my point being that claiming that there should be a "right to bodily autonomy" or the "right to an abortion" is different from claiming that these guarantees align with a "prudential" approach to governance.
 
GhostInTheMachine

GhostInTheMachine

Stepping Stone
Nov 5, 2023
201
We probably won't agree on that then. For the record, I consider "sin and vice" as containing less substance than "collapse", though societies which "slouch toward Gomorrah" will reveal structural deficiencies in the obligations set by an ius. Again, we don't seem to agree.

I don't mean unaccountability as an ascription, and I do recognize that minors will have politically orientation and have a vested interest in their livelihoods, and what I mean to say by a "radical revision" is that it's currently unfeasible to champion something as vague and unworkable as "self-determination" without reformulating our regard for parental discretion entirely. You can lower the minimum age for voting, I suppose, but if the only reason backending that decision is "self-determination", again not aligning with any higher source but simply as a necessary concession for allowing youth this right in other regards, then I see that as likely incompatible with the current political and legal regime, probably too "utopian" in a sense. I do, however, agree that AoC laws are tendentious. I don't think that's enough to demonstrate a complete relativism of a "political will" (I'm assuming you mean voting preferences, which I never claimed were "absolutes" in any regard, since this is an artifact of democracies where my general point doesn't rely on electoral power, hence why I say that these are issues of the "political process" and hence the issues to be diagnosed).

The onus falls on you to demonstrate that this would really be workable, but again I'm agnostic between the two options I pointed to earlier, partly due to my distaste for "institutional disruption" where it is not needed. I used the term "sacrifices" in the sense that both sides of the aisle view eachother as "sacrificing" youth in favor of a political prerogative, so a categorical ban seems just as feasible, if not more, when legal circumstances are taken into account. Granted, we've yet to see how Skrmetti plays out.

That may be, but that's not a constitutional guarantee, so "prudence" in itself is part of policymaking, my point being that claiming that there should be a "right to bodily autonomy" or the "right to an abortion" is different from claiming that these guarantees align with a "prudential" approach to governance.

Despite being an Anarchist and ultimately somebody who rejects the legitimacy of the state, I recognize that any political changes that desire to be stable (in so much that this is even a stated goal of such change) will be gradual and operating within the realm of the status quo. Self-determination is not as vague as you seem to be understanding it. It is merely allowing individuals the ability to determine the outcomes of their own lives so long as they do not constrain others. There is naturally going to be conflicts that arise if all individuals selfishly pursue their own self-interests, but part of being human is being social and communal and conflict resolution will be arbitrated between members of said societies via the channels they make available. This essentially covers any political changes that would be desired, even if that will in some cases result in bloodshed.

I personally do not see where it would be unworkable, we are both operating within the realm of hypotheticals and without data to refer and build models from, neither of us can make predictions as to the failure or success of any given goals. "Where it is not needed" is subjective and will be something that society subjectively chooses to pursue based on what is deemed socially necessary by whomever controls the levers of power. I am not a constitutionalist, although it is a convenient tool to defer to for arbitration of political precedent. As a result, I see it only as rough guide, and not binding authority.
 
quins

quins

Member
May 27, 2025
81
Despite being an Anarchist and ultimately somebody who rejects the legitimacy of the state, I recognize that any political changes that desire to be stable (in so much that this is even a stated goal of such change) will be gradual and operating within the realm of the status quo. Self-determination is not as vague as you seem to be understanding it. It is merely allowing individuals the ability to determine the outcomes of their own lives so long as they do not constrain others. There is naturally going to be conflicts that arise if all individuals selfishly pursue their own self-interests, but part of being human is being social and communal and conflict resolution will be arbitrated between members of said societies via the channels they make available. This essentially covers any political changes that would be desired, even if that will in some cases result in bloodshed.

I personally do not see where it would be unworkable, we are both operating within the realm of hypotheticals and without data to refer and build models from, neither of us can make predictions as to the failure or success of any given goals. "Where it is not needed" is subjective and will be something that society subjectively chooses to pursue based on what is deemed socially necessary by whomever controls the levers of power. I am not a constitutionalist, although it is a convenient tool to defer to for arbitration of political precedent. As a result, I see it only as rough guide, and not binding authority.
I see it as vague in the sense of asking "why would this be preferable over competing principles which are afforded more substance in the positive law?" I'm only a libertarian in some regards, and I think it points to a certain theoretical deficiency where the only "strong" forms of libertarianism still selectively appeal to higher sources, as in the cases of free speech absolutism, deregulation and property law, while curbing any claim to natural law itself. An augmentation. But on libertarian policy questions which fit into the general scaffolding of the legal regime I am more sympathetic.

I'm speaking from the position of tentative "institutionalism", which is by definition "workable", or "settled law." I use the term "where it is not needed" in the sense of general avoidance doctrine, I understand that radical solutions might seem like precisely what is needed, though again I don't share your ideological views so I'm skeptical. In my time I did entertain the possibility of radical "vanguardism", in the sense of the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks, if the electoral base were constituted by lumpenproles unable to tell their heads from their arses.

Anyway, I think we've gone too far off topic. I'm not really a "constitutionalist", rather I recognize that "constitutionalism" as a philosophy works a lot better and has better scaffolding than selective guarantees which more or less reject natural law while still retaining the features of "natural law" argumentation. But I think we've moved past the assertion that governments are "theocratic" in any sense, though I think we are still befuddled on the question of whether or not the words of "mudmen" carry any efficacy today.

As an aside: I don't think we'll agree on the nature of when a "rough guide" ought to control, and consequently the obligations set forth by it. We might be talking past eachother, and I think we've derailed this thread enough. So we'll agree to disagree, or you can PM me.
 
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S

Squiggles3

HI :D
May 11, 2025
16
I wish I could just receive healthcare and be allowed to live my life. The right are constantly transphobic and the left flip between throwing us under the bus or completely failing to even try to understand us. I wish transphobes didn't exist or I was born normal. And worse, history will do what it has always done. Ill have to salvage what little of my life I have left while the people who contribute to making trans peoples lives miserable will get to go "oops" and then pretend it never happened and white wash everything. There are issues with both sides but I wish right leaning people never existed.
 

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