Reflections on Christ today

[EternalShore]

At work today, I saw the movie, "The Last Temptation of Christ" on the shelf~ I went ahead and looked at the cover and saw that it showed Jesus on the cross~ usually, one thinks of how Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, so this made me think a bit~ Jesus had all the power in the world to stop what happened to Him, but He didn't let it happen because He knew that it was His mission to save humanity~ However, He certainly didn't want to die that way~ He could've stopped it at any point and just given himself everything He was tempted to own~ In fact, they even mentioned this in the Bible~ He could've been tempted just to come off the cross until He died~ meanwhile, we want to dry, so being martyred like this doesn't sound like too big a deal~ however, when we think of committing sewer slide, we want to minimize the amount of pain~ fairly certain that no one here has considered sewer slide by crucifixion, but I'm open to being proven wrong~ meanwhile, Jesus was given one of the most painful methods of execution (I've heard ana-tsurushi is worse)~ >_< I just think it's amazing that Jesus could've turned everything around and was certainly tempted to the very end but chose not to~

 

[DarkRange55]

 

[Dejected 55]

At the same time... Jesus also knew his death would not be permanent. So... was he ever really tempted when he knew what the plan was all along and how it would turn out for him?

I think the story of Jesus would have made more sense if Jesus was an aspect of God that didn't know he was God and didn't know of his destiny... but rather was a good man who tried to spread good and was betrayed and killed for it... then surprised to find himself returned to the world 3 days later with full knowledge of who he really was and how he had saved mankind.

That version feels like a version that would position him more favorably than a guy who always knew he was the "son of God" and carried his life that way and knew he was making a sacrifice for humanity and knew he ultimately would only suffer that little bit for it before coming back afterwards.

Or maybe that's just me sitting on the sidelines.

 

[Pluto]

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think the story of Jesus would have made more sense if Jesus was an aspect of God that didn't know he was God and didn't know of his destiny... but rather was a good man who tried to spread good and was betrayed and killed for it... then surprised to find himself returned to the world 3 days later with full knowledge of who he really was and how he had saved mankind.

That's the part I've never quite understood. Was God Jesus at that time or, were they separate? It feels more of a sacrifice if God sacrificed itself but to let 'his' son go through that? Why do people think he's this great, caring father if he let 'his' own son experience that? Becauss 'he'/ they love humanity even more?

Because there was no other way? Really? Didn't they just need death plus resurection to prove there was an afterlife? Certainly, it was more memorable I suppose. Plus- dying as a martyr I suppose elevates a religious figure.

But- like you say OP- they were/ are one or two beings with the greatest power there is- presumably. The most intelligent too. Could neither see any other way to cement their image in history? Was pain required even?

Even Jesus didn't seem utterly content with the decision at the end- didn't he ask why he had been forsaken? Wasn't that the point to strike him with a lightening bolt- something to quickly end it for him? A mercy killing.

Why watch your own child die in agony? Again- does that mean God enjoys watching people suffer in pain? That pain is a necessary requirement?

Also- how did it 'save' humanity? It demonstrated there was an afterlife I suppose. It gave weight to all the other things he was saying- presumably. It gave hope to criminals- that they can get into heaven if they believe in God and Christ. What if we don't want an eternal life in heaven though?

A lot of it doesn't make sense to me. God was supposedly already angry. Why did Jesus dying on the cross atone for the sins God was already angry about? Why would that appease 'him'? It's like having a really awful neighbour that acts up for years and it culminates in them torturing and crucifying one of our family members. Why would that atone for all the other bad things they did? Wouldn't that just be the cherry on the cake?

Was Jesus representing humankind and sacrificing themselves to appease their angry God father? But again- why does God demand that suffering?

Aparently, the whole thing was to reunite us with God's love. But then- asides from the hell side of things- would it be so bad to be without God's love? If the way they express it is to leave their only son to die in agony, nailed to a cross- is that the kind of parent we want?

I would have made Jesus fly up to heaven, carrying the cross. Maybe a few laps of the world- like Superman. Why even kill the human version at all? Surely- that would demonstrate supernatural power. Christ could still be alive today- if they'd wanted that. We could be hearing God's word from the horses mouth- as it were. How many atheists would there be with a flying Jesus around?

Seems to me like God still wants people to get it 'wrong'. Maybe so 'he' can still punish us.

If it's all true, then Jesus very possibly did go through so much for what he believed in, in the hopes it would 'save' us. I can understand people being amazed and grateful for that sacrifice. But, I can't personally get over the horror and disgust I feel at the father who could have prevented that but- didn't. Again- I can't see God as anything but a sadist.

I suppose that's why I hope God doesn't exist. I also think Jesus may well have existed but- what if they were schizophrenic say. What if all the 'miracles' were illusions? They used to use automata to make people believe statues could move etc. in some ancient temples. If David Blaine wasn't honest about being a magician, mentalist and endurance performer- wouldn't his stunts appear to be miracles? Imagine David Blaine with 12 disciples. All utterly committed to creating incredible illusions. Imagine if only their reviews of his show existed afterwards.

I imagine there are religious cults or even sports groups where people are so entrenched that they buy into their leader being something extraordinary. It's hard to believe this is even real but:

 

[Dejected 55]

Yeah... Catholics (maybe Protestants too?) believe in the "holy trinity" where there is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit... each aspects of God. I don't pretend to understand the pitch here, but this belief basically ties Jesus and God together as aspects of the same being.

Other branches of Christianity I think just treat Jesus like God's actual proper son via Mary.

I'm not even touching on the whole "virgin" Mary thing that makes no sense and absolutely no one would believe for a second if it happened in modern times with the understanding we have of reproduction... and then Joseph is kind of a cuck, when you think about it.

Meanwhile... God is supposed to be all knowing and all powerful... but somehow it was "necessary" for him to create Jesus (either as an aspect of himself or his actual son) and then let Jesus be killed in order to save humanity? I mean... couldn't God just forgive people and tell them some "new" rules or something? As something you're supposed to take literally it makes zero sense... but even if you try and look for the metaphor and larger meaning spiritually and not literally it still doesn't make a lot of sense.

I mean... a version that would make more sense would be IF God sent his son to earth and his son tries to get people to be better people... but is rejected and betrayed and killed as he was... then God should throw up his hands (as he has in the past via the Old Testament) and say "fuck this shit" and kill everyone and start over again, maybe allowing some of Jesus' followers to survive because they "got" the new message.

Old Testament God straight up asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac... and let the dude get all the way to the point of having his son ready to stab at the altar before saying "Nevermind, dude... it's enough to me to know you would kill your son without cause just because I ask you."

Some Christians like to quote from the Old Testament to support stuff, but point to the New Testament when they don't like something in the Old Testament... other Christians want to ignore the Old Testament entirely, even as they use its prophecy of the prophet Jesus to support how Jesus was "the man" basically... but they kind of don't like you pointing out smiting God and the evil shit he was up to wiping out people over and over.

I respect people having religion and all, even though I can't believe in any of it... but whenever people start to get uppity about it and judge me, I am reminded how none of it makes any kind of sense or holds up to any real scrutiny.

That's not what is going on in this thread... but it's why I kind of have the take I have in posting on this thread when it comes to reflecting on Jesus today. So much of what is the belief in Jesus or God is dependent on it all having been created/written a couple thousand years ago when people were a lot more ignorant about how reality worked and needed to make up stuff to explain things.

Also, not for nothing... but all the things written about Jesus that were put into the New Testament... things supposedly written by people who were with Jesus at the time... none of it was collected and used to create the religion until something like 100 years later... when neither Jesus nor any of his followers with direct knowledge of him were around to verify anything anymore. So who knows if the writings are even actually the writings of the people who knew him.

 

[doomedbynarrative]

Personally, I think Jesus was just a guy. A guy who was trying to make a difference by telling people to feed the poor, stop listening to the corrupt religious leaders that used religious law to make people's lives harder than they needed to be, to have mercy on and forgive those who do wrong because they're human, and to look after the outcasts in society and the sick.

He was crucified because his teachings were reaching people and both the Romans and the Pharisees/Saducees saw a threat to the power they held in the region. If enough people started acting like Jesus did there would be too much hope and some people could use it to cause a revolt.

The Romans did NOT mess around with revolts. They preferred to nip them in the bud before they happened and made brutal examples out of would be revolt leaders and anyone who did not comply with the way they ran things. And one way to keep people from revolting was to give a modicum of power to their religious leaders who could keep people under control and oppressed by laws.

Jesus didn't die as a sacrifice nor was he God incarnate. He died because they didn't like what he had to say. And they'd kill him again if he existed today.

 

[itsgone2]

For those that feel the need to trash Christian beliefs on every thread like this, please consider just keeping your thoughts to yourself. Not only offensive, but boringly repetitive.

 

[doomedbynarrative]

For those that feel the need to trash Christian beliefs on every thread like this, please consider just keeping your thoughts to yourself. Not only offensive, but boringly repetitive.

Sorry if my post came off as trashing. Wasn't my intent and I think religious beliefs of any kind can be a beautiful thing for a lot of people. I actually like Jesus a lot as a person. I just don't ascribe to the religious beliefs of/in him.

 

[martyrdom]

You need -1 more posts to view this content

 

[Dejected 55]

For those that feel the need to trash Christian beliefs on every thread like this, please consider just keeping your thoughts to yourself. Not only offensive, but boringly repetitive.

You'd kind of have to define what is considered "trashing" Christian beliefs. The OP starts with mentioning having recently watched "The Last Temptation of Christ" and ruminating then about Jesus as a result. Back when that movie came out in theaters, MANY Christians in the US protested and wanted the movie banned... so, had the OP wanted to go see the movie back then, even as a Christian, OP would have been trashed by his fellow Christians for the heresy and sacrilege of even wanting to see that movie.

I think that reaction toned down over the years... If you've ever been in a Catholic Church, they often (always maybe? I've only been inside a couple) have the stations of the cross and the actual crucifixion of Jesus is a really violent and horror-like thing. Ignoring whether Jesus was divine or not... assuming he was a man who existed, going through that torture is insane to imagine... having to carry your own cross like that and then being nailed to it? Then again, there are those who make the point that the nails were actually a kindness... because though they hurt, they caused him to bleed to death much quicker than if he'd just been rope-tied like usual crucifixions were done... and he could have been hanging there a week or more before he died of starvation/dehydration.

Catholics, the founders of Christianity, also usually teach that you should question everything. I've had some in depth discussions with Catholics who don't mind you scrutinizing their belief and the ones who study and are sincere in their faith actually seem to kind of enjoy digging deep and responding to questions about how their religion doesn't make sense... as long as you aren't insulting them in the process.

Point being, I think any legitimate religion should be able to stand up to scrutiny... and when people don't like being questioned, it makes me want to question more... kind of like the same Catholic church that really tried hard to make the priest molestation scandals disappear... that wasn't a good look... they were far better served by the clergy who were willing to listen and investigate and admit there were people within the church who had failed the church.

 

[itsgone2]

Sorry if my post came off as trashing. Wasn't my intent and I think religious beliefs of any kind can be a beautiful thing for a lot of people. I actually like Jesus a lot as a person. I just don't ascribe to the religious beliefs of/in him.

I appreciate you're saying sorry. Thank you.

 

[Forever Sleep]

[Hidden content]

Thank you for replying in such detail. I want to acknowledge what @itsgone2 posted earlier here and say- I should really keep off religious and especially Christian threads. It's not my intention to offend religious members. So, asides from this reply, I will try harder to steer clear in future or perhaps make separate threads discussing frustrations with religion some of us may still have. I believe that's also our right to express here but- not on devout threads. So- I also apologise to Christians who may have taken offence and please ignore the response below.

.Truthfully, I still have problems with all of it. A human sacrifice isn't the same as an animal one. Animals don't give their consent to be slaughtered to benefit us. It's actually really disturbing (for me) to imagine a person designating an animal for slaughter because it had certain patterns on it or, acted in a certain way.

Animals wouldn't choose to be eaten by us either if they had the choice I imagine. Presumably it's because God gave us dominion over other sentient beings. Which in itself, I see as an immensely cruel set up. I understand it's not my place to judge or understand a God but- we have been given brains, emotions and pain receptors to be able to experience empathy, agony and question the rules we are governed by. God also presumably realised that we would experience all those things. Do you suppose 'he' still thought the majority would love him after all that?

I'm not so sure it is enough to be a good person with Christian attributes to appease God. Doesn't 'he' also demmand faith? Ironically, the very best, kindest people I've known in life have been atheists! And, I don't believe it was God working through them. I believe they were kind off their own backs because their love was for others. Not themselves so much. Alternatively, I have come across quite a few religious people who were totally out for themselves. Religion looked more like scoring brownie points- both with God and society- to me.

Wasn't Jesus heard to have said: 'My God, my God, Why have you forsaken me?' on the cross?That sounds like a plea for help to me. It's also a confusing question if he was in fact God and knew why he had to die that way.

Maybe the pain was overwhelming him at that point but in that case- now realising how painful it was to be a human- why didn't he make some changes? Once again- doesn't that suggest 'he' is at least complicit in leaving us to (inevitable) suffering?

Why does God have so much faith in humans to do the right thing, when 'he' knows how fallible we are? 'He' created us to be this fallible. You don't create something that has a million ways of malfunctioning and then, be surprised when it does.

Maybe it is because 'he' considers the power of choice paramount. But then- we don't actually get to choose. Even over whether we are born in the first place! We may even be born somewhere where another religion is prevalent. Presumably the 'wrong' religion. Would any of us consider an experiment fair that tested a beings capability to make the correct choice- when so many choices are either forced on us or- we're pushed very strongly into making the 'wrong' choice? The whole thing just feels so corrupt to me.

Why are you so sure God doesn't enjoy witnessing pain? By your own admission, we can't understand God. Why assume God is kind and loving then? If sacrificial animals were required to absorb our sin before being slaughtered and Jesus needed to be martyred that way- it seems to suggest sin is removed via violence and pain. That pain and violence are in fact a requirement. Didn't God ask Abraham to sacrifice his own son to prove his loyalty? Maybe 'he' didn't want him to go through with it but the emotions involved would have been horrendous. Even then though- when he stopped him last minute. The angel didn't say: God was only joking/ pranking/ testing you. They said- slaughter a ram instead. I always felt sorry for that ram!

On a slightly different note- do you think people who repeatedly offend are truly repentent? How 'sorry' can you really be if you reoffend? I wonder that about all those peadophile priests. Do they believe they are absolved of sin, each time they confess?

I don't believe a loving mother (or father) would have created the world the way it is. Unless they were either utterly incompetent- which presumably- God isn't. Or- their wider master plan is so brilliant and so intricate that the human brain can't comprehend it. There would have to be the most incredible ending twist though- to justify some of the things that go on on earth. That God wrote into the blueprint and allowed to develop. Why assume God can experience pain though? Isn't that attributing 'him' with human experience once more? I suppose I don't understand why people are so convinced that God can't feel mallice and anger but they can feel love and pain. They are simply different sides of the same coin- no?

I really appreciate your response though. Interesting that you say religion shouldn't affect law. I find it interesting that religious and civil laws frequently parallel one another. Which makes me wonder if all of it was man made to begin with. Clever really. If prison doesn't frighten a person, a God's wrath and hell might.

I agreee with you though. We don't all believe in the same thing for one. We shouldn't all be forced then to follow the laws of someone else's religion. That said- a fair few of them are necessary to live in a safe society without murder, theft etc.

 

[martyrdom]

You need -1 more posts to view this content

 

[gunmetalblue]

You need to react to this post in order to see this content.

 

[Forever Sleep]

[Hidden content]

Your knowledge is so impressive. Thank you once again for replying in such detail. Once again, I don't want to offend religious members so faithful, please ignore the response.

I suppose what frustrates me with religion in general is, there always seems to be an excuse. God doesn't 'feel' malice or negative emotions. It's more of an unknown force like gravity. But then- gravity doesn't expect or ask things of us. It doesn't 'love' us or shun us. It's an indiscriminate force. God seems incredibly discriminate! That suggests a being not so different from ourselves in terms of judging others.

I just tend to feel frustrated that all the more negative criticism is deflected, while the positive attributes are defended. Yet- by the same logic- both should be true. So- why accept that God can't hate but they can love because they aren't human? Why assume hate is a human emotion but love can be human and Godly?

I don't know really. I suppose I'm not really taken in or impressed by any religion because I can't stop looking around at how this actual world was put together and think that a 'good' God could have anything to do with it.

For me- this world is living proof of the nature of its creator. Religions are mostly books written by humans. I'd prefer to look at actual world evidence and draw my own conclusions- rather than a person's interpretation on why this or that is the way it is.

But, whether they created the whole universe and our world or dumped 'naughty' humans on it, being a 'perfect' and supposedly caring being- they ought to have known better! That so much suffering would happen as a consequence.

If the Garden of Eden bit is real- it feels to me like they set Adam and Eve up for a fall. Why imbue them with temptation and put them in the proximity of hugely tempting things when they must have realised they would succumb to them?

Again- if it's a test of human will and obedience- it's a cruel one- to my mind. I'll certainly fear a cruel God but I would be being dishonest to my own values if I pretended to worship or love them. Even to accept what they did. Whether it's my place to think or say it, I think it was wrong.

I suppose I don't really want to interpret why it's ok that some creatures here can only survive by eating other sentient creatures alive for example. I don't really accept that it isn't my place to question these sorts of things either and I doubt any excuse would justify them to me.

God's supposedly perfect after all. All knowing and omnipotent. Even if they didn't design things to turn out this way, they must have realised the probability that they would. By that reasoning- all of the most foul things that happen on this earth- the rape of children, torture, the holocaust, genocides, wars, animals eating one another alive. All of that was at least known about/ anticipated by God- surely?

Who actually would put the value of choice over child rape? We don't- for one. We have laws in place to try to ensure people don't in fact make those choices.

But seriously? A God that powerful? They couldn't have just tweaked the design a tad so we aren't even able to find children sexually attractive? We can't choose to fly or breath underwater. God presumably decided we wouldn't have those attributes. Why do we not judge God as the manufacturer of a sometimes (very faulty) product? Why aren't they held (ultimately) responsible? At least in our minds.

Because 'he' wanted to give us choice and self determination? If a manufacturer created a washing machine stuffed full of AI that it knew would do a better job washing or clothes but it knew 1 in 100 would kill our pet dogs and cats- we'd be suing them!

We'd have issues with the manufacturer of a sex doll that went around raping people and children! Even if it used its own AI sentience to do it. If we could prove the manufacturer somewhere down the line knew that that was a possibility- they'd be in the shit!

Are we to believe God didn't realise that some humans would have the temptation to rape and murder and some would act on that? That all jewel wasps drag stunned insects into a burrow, lay an egg on it, seal it in and leave it to be eaten from the inside out by its larva? That's the stuff of nightmares! I doubt even our most 'talented' gore and horror writers could come up with that! To create or allow the evolution of something that could do it for real? Seriously? We're still meant to think the creator/ enabler of that is 'good'/ decent/ moral and fair? And worthy of praise?

If God were a human cult leader- wouldn't we see them in a different light? Because we wouldn't accept those attributes in a human unless we were morally retarded ourselves. Seems weird to me that the criteria for judging a human is so much higher than judging a God! Because we 'shouldn't' be judging God I suppose. It's 'not allowed'. Convenient really.

Is it simply that we're afraid of a powerful God so- we just accept and defend to the hilt all they presumably did? But then- I don't like the idea of living under a dictatorship. The whole- it's right because I said so. Or, we simply suck up to them for our own personal gain? Again- that feels disingenuous. I hope I wouldn't worship a cruel dictator in this world. I wouldn't want to worship a spiritual one either.

I also question why we are actually able to question God. If obedience is so important to prove our faith and love, then it does seem like a way to sort the wheat from the chaff. What happens to the chaff? I imagine punishment of some description. Again, it just feels like a very cruel experiment to me.

I was actually raised with very watered down Christianity. Don't cry that your mother is dead (when I was 3,) your grandpa (aged 4,) your nana (aged 10.) They are all in heaven now. We didn't go to church though. It was more just a general belief in God and heaven plus- a few moral teachings. No sex before marriage- stuff like that.

I began reading books critical of religion in my late teens. Both Catholicism and Christianity came under scrutiny and a lot of what I read made sense to me. I have a very shallow understanding of religions though. I'm very impressed by people who know more. I suppose it gives me even more confidence to dislike and not really believe when those same people also have problems with religion. Because I feel like their conclusions are better backed up.

Thank you once again for your detailed response. Lastly, I'm happy to discuss further- should you want to (no expectation though) but, maybe we should create another thread to do so. I am conscious that religious people may prefer to avoid posts attacking their beliefs.