Discussion reality from religion's point of view

[a_dead_mess]

** The following piece of text is only my thoughts about life and reality based on my research of religion. I don't claim for it to be true or the absolute understanding of reality. I'll hopefully update this when I have a bigger picture. any objections, thoughts, or doubts are encouraged and highly appreciated. **

hey guys, I hope everyone is doing well and coping with the miserable existence we live in. 6 weeks ago, I went into a downward spiral of questioning things around me, especially suffering and evil after a close friend of mine ctb a few months ago. I went through a very hard time, I stopped eating or ate very small amounts of food, I stopped going to the gym and cut ties with my friend there, I didn't hang out a lot and I stopped doing the things I loved. what made matters worse was that I used to be a very religious person so I thought turning into religion was the answer.
(if you are wondering, I come from a monotheistic background, Islam).
I didn't question things much at first, I just tried to pray that things get better and, spoiler alert, that didn't do anything.

I believe that after a while of living in constant agony is when I first started questioning the existence of god and even if he does, how can a just, merciful god allow for all this suffering to happen and not step in and change things? I was always told that god is more merciful towards us than a mother is towards her children and I'm pretty damn sure that my mother wouldn't let me suffer and even if that was the case, she would try to step in and help. I believed there was a god, only that he was having fun with the universe and our suffering. my reason for god's existence was that I believed we knew very little about how life came to be to assert any explanation besides god.

and so my journey began of trying to understand god's logic began. I figured that if I could get the idea of god out of my mind then at least atheism grants me peace after death so I just had it as a last resort. there would be no harm in being an Athiest because I'll finally be able to overcome my agnosticism towards god and have no fear of what's to come.


let me state religion's claims before first:

• Religion claims that we are all servants of god
• God created the world for us (his servants)
• thus, our purpose in life is to worship god in this world

my argument is as follows:

• if we are servants of god as point 1 claims and our purpose is to worship him
• why doesn't he just make us angels and forcefully worship him?

this argument has a lot of extensions that I can add like "why would god create this world where there will be suffering just so we can worship him" (it's the same argument but with an emotional tone).

the conclusion I've reached is as follows:

• human beings, unlike other creatures of god, chose to have the test of life and not forcefully submit to god's will
• if a person doesn't end up knowing who god is or doesn't get the full message of Islam wouldn't be thrown into hell because the message never really reached him in the first place.
• God says that in this world, everyone is tested with things that he can live through and endure. if there is something that's out of his reach then he wouldn't be asked why he didn't pass/go through it.
• God also states that he'll maintain the flow of life until he decides for it to end.
• what makes us superior to other servants of god is that if we chose to accept the reality of our existence, we will get into a world where we are basically some forms of gods ourselves. Heaven

that pretty much sums up the responses I've accumulated over the past 2 months and I left out the ones that don't make sense to me as this is a very long post already.

thank you very much for reading and I'd appreciate any objections or questions that get raised.

(I'd like to hear @Un-'s thoughts btw)

 

[Un-]

Well I want to say, firstly, thank you for mentioning me heh. I feel like a fucking celebrity and shit.

Secondly, I don't want my thoughts coming from the angle of making you an athiest or whatever. The one thing that I dislike more than religion, is forcing people to think like how I think. At the end of the day, no matter if my argument resonates with you or not; no matter if anyone else's does or whatever, everything comes down to what you want to, and feel comfortable believing.

With that being said.. I don't know what to talk about, to be honest. I'm not Muslim, and I know nothing about that religion. Christianity is quite different, like for example, even if you've never been exposed to the gospel, you're still condemned to hell. At least, that's what I was taught. Another thing is that God gave humanity free will; it was never something we chose. So I'm gonna be arguing against what I know, really.

I don't know why I say "arguing", as if it's gonna be some huge escapade or something. It's just thoughts or whatever.

I can only speak for myself here, because this type of shit is very individual and personal, but the entire reason I became an athiest was because the religion didn't make sense to me.

For example, it doesn't make sense that you can both have free will, but yet have a pre-determined fate that only God sees, but for some reason, he still acts as if you had a choice all along. It doesn't make sense. Another thing that you brought up - that life is a test, or something to that effect. It doesn't make sense for, let's say, babies born with disorders whereby their spinal cords are on the outside. Or their hearts are on the outside. And surgery doesn't go to plan and they die. What the fuck was God testing them on? They've done nothing and they died. Another example is that.. I watch gore a lot. Call me a piece of shit - I deserve it. I watched a video of a jumper who accidently landed on a tram that a mother was pushing, and the baby died. What the fuck did that baby do? It's things like that, that don't make sense.

And the justifications that I've been taught don't add up. One reason is that it was God's plan. But if that's the case, what type of God would want the life of an innocent baby to end like THAT? Some say it's because Satan roams the earth, and he may have had a hand in it. But that still doesn't make any sense. Let's create a hypothetical: Satan is in the surgical room, and the surgeons are operating on the baby, right? What if, and it does happen, the surgery is a complete success? Was Satan just not there? Did he say "nevermind"? Did God cast him out? Because if that's the case, then does free will not extend to Satan? If that's the case then why doesn't God wipe him out right now? Is God malicious? It doesn't make any sense.

And, for example, if you look from the outside in - from atheism or something similar into religion - you can't help but feel absolutely confused when someone says they're "being tested" by God. Not only does it contradict the idea of God's plan (because if he knows what's gonna happen - that you're gonna continue fighting, did you ever really have a choice to not fight at all? Whatever.), but, if you look at it in terms of the book of Job (which is extremely fucked up.. There's a lot of rape, and incest spoken in there), it's said to the effect that God allowed Satan to harass Job, in a bet between God and Satan about Job's devotion to God. I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound loving. That doesn't sound fair.

It's these plot holes than don't add up. And these aren't the only ones. I wrote a document, @a_dead_mess, and I'm still updating it to this day. There are thousands of websites debunking Christian apologetic theories; there are websites showcasing how often the Bible contradicts themselves. There are many philosophers that have great arguments against religion. There's a lot of material out there that would make any devote religious person question what they believe in.

Even with all this, what matters most is what you've experienced and what you think is the truth. It sounds tongue-in-cheek by saying this, but even though there's sound arguments out there, if you feel like there's a god, then good on you. Go believe in one, as long as you don't make your choice affect other people, and you aren't an asshole about it.

Like, for example, there was a thread earlier.. I talked about it on my status:
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/no-one-is-a-failure.97998/

I said that I don't agree at all with the guy, but that I loved what he said regardless, and I liked him a lot. Yes, he's different. Yes, he's religious and I don't like religion. But he's not a fucking asshole. You can just tell he's loving and kind and he wants the best for you, the reader.

Anyway. Long tangent. I'm sorry if there's spelling mistakes and shit - or mistakes where I'm incomprehensible all together. It is what it is, my friend!

 

[a_dead_mess]

Well I want to say, firstly, thank you for mentioning me heh. I feel like a fucking celebrity and shit.

Secondly, I don't want my thoughts coming from the angle of making you an athiest or whatever. The one thing that I dislike more than religion, is forcing people to think like how I think. At the end of the day, no matter if my argument resonates with you or not; no matter if anyone else's does or whatever, everything comes down to what you want to, and feel comfortable believing.

With that being said.. I don't know what to talk about, to be honest. I'm not Muslim, and I know nothing about that religion. Christianity is quite different, like for example, even if you've never been exposed to the gospel, you're still condemned to hell. At least, that's what I was taught. Another thing is that God gave humanity free will; it was never something we chose. So I'm gonna be arguing against what I know, really.

I don't know why I say "arguing", as if it's gonna be some huge escapade or something. It's just thoughts or whatever.

I can only speak for myself here, because this type of shit is very individual and personal, but the entire reason I became an athiest was because the religion didn't make sense to me.

For example, it doesn't make sense that you can both have free will, but yet have a pre-determined fate that only God sees, but for some reason, he still acts as if you had a choice all along. It doesn't make sense. Another thing that you brought up - that life is a test, or something to that effect. It doesn't make sense for, let's say, babies born with disorders whereby their spinal cords are on the outside. Or their hearts are on the outside. And surgery doesn't go to plan and they die. What the fuck was God testing them on? They've done nothing and they died. Another example is that.. I watch gore a lot. Call me a piece of shit - I deserve it. I watched a video of a jumper who accidently landed on a tram that a mother was pushing, and the baby died. What the fuck did that baby do? It's things like that, that don't make sense.

And the justifications that I've been taught don't add up. One reason is that it was God's plan. But if that's the case, what type of God would want the life of an innocent baby to end like THAT? Some say it's because Satan roams the earth, and he may have had a hand in it. But that still doesn't make any sense. Let's create a hypothetical: Satan is in the surgical room, and the surgeons are operating on the baby, right? What if, and it does happen, the surgery is a complete success? Was Satan just not there? Did he say "nevermind"? Did God cast him out? Because if that's the case, then does free will not extend to Satan? If that's the case then why doesn't God wipe him out right now? Is God malicious? It doesn't make any sense.

And, for example, if you look from the outside in - from atheism or something similar into religion - you can't help but feel absolutely confused when someone says they're "being tested" by God. Not only does it contradict the idea of God's plan (because if he knows what's gonna happen - that you're gonna continue fighting, did you ever really have a choice to not fight at all? Whatever.), but, if you look at it in terms of the book of Job (which is extremely fucked up.. There's a lot of rape, and incest spoken in there), it's said to the effect that God allowed Satan to harass Job, in a bet between God and Satan about Job's devotion to God. I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound loving. That doesn't sound fair.

It's these plot holes than don't add up. And these aren't the only ones. I wrote a document, @a_dead_mess, and I'm still updating it to this day. There are thousands of websites debunking Christian apologetic theories; there are websites showcasing how often the Bible contradicts themselves. There are many philosophers that have great arguments against religion. There's a lot of material out there that would make any devote religious person question what they believe in.

Even with all this, what matters most is what you've experienced and what you think is the truth. It sounds tongue-in-cheek by saying this, but even though there's sound arguments out there, if you feel like there's a god, then good on you. Go believe in one, as long as you don't make your choice affect other people, and you aren't an asshole about it.

Like, for example, there was a thread earlier.. I talked about it on my status:
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/no-one-is-a-failure.97998/

I said that I don't agree at all with the guy, but that I loved what he said regardless, and I liked him a lot. Yes, he's different. Yes, he's religious and I don't like religion. But he's not a fucking asshole. You can just tell he's loving and kind and he wants the best for you, the reader.

Anyway. Long tangent. I'm sorry if there's spelling mistakes and shit - or mistakes where I'm incomprehensible all together. It is what it is, my friend!

I don't think I have the willpower to reply to this huge comment of yours but I agree with a lot of points you raised. religion definitely doesn't stop the flow of thoughts one has and even what I wrote doesn't make huge sense to me. about the test thing, I've read that god knows about what the fate of everyone's test is but that's not relevant to the point of us being in this test. I still struggle with good and evil the most

 

[theboy]

You have misconceptions about this
We are not all servants of God.

- Those who receive receive the Holy Spirit, they are.

-God cannot go against the human will, so if he turned us into angels to worship him, he would contradict himself,

- God does not allow evil. The devil, the God of this world, is the one behind all this

- God does not test people. This is perhaps the most widespread "myth" within the Catholic religion

- God created this world because he wanted to have a family. Unfortunately, after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, everything fell apart.

 

[a_dead_mess]

You have misconceptions about this
We are not all servants of God.

- Those who receive receive the Holy Spirit, they are.

-God cannot go against the human will, so if he turned us into angels to worship him, he would contradict himself,

- God does not allow evil. The devil, the God of this world, is the one behind all this

- God does not test people. This is perhaps the most widespread "myth" within the Catholic religion

- God created this world because he wanted to have a family. Unfortunately, after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, everything fell apart.

I think this is the Christian narrative

 

[theboy]

I think this is the Christian narrative

It doesn't really come from something. You just have to study the Bible to realize these things

 

[a_dead_mess]

It doesn't really come from something. You just have to study the Bible to realize these things

yes but the bible is the basis of Christianity. I'm talking about Islam's pov here

 

[theboy]

yes but the bible is the basis of Christianity. I'm talking about Islam's pov here

hmm i understand..
omg