Discussion Question for thought: should one ctb still owing money to friends?

[ManWithNoName]

I recently had a conversation ctb related with a few others, and thought I would pose this question that someone had brought to the discussion: is it really bad form to ctb owing money to friends?

I'm not speaking of carrying out self deliverance while still owing money to credit card companies or the banks, but rather owing money to friends.

Some are considering ctb due to lack of being economically viable to the World i.e. not able to see gainful employment where one would be able to pay back debts.

The amount: less than $ 2,000.
The financial status of those owed the money would not put them out financially.

Thoughts?

 

[Jean4]

Wouldn't know. I don't have any friends lol. I guess it depends on how much you actually care for the person.

 

[Brick In The Wall]

Depends on alot of things. Most everyone owes some money to a friend or family member. If you have the money to spare and it's a good friend I'd give it to them personally.

I know in some cultures it's a very bad omen to die with debts. I have some Indian friends who tell me about how they believe they'll be punished or forever a servant to someone they owe debts to if they die.

If you're asking the question it must be atleast somewhat on your conscience. But again it's a personal decision that's entirely dependent on circumstance.

 

[k75]

I wouldn't want to owe anyone I was close to anything. In my case, it might end up happening, but I'll be leaving them things that have value that they could sell if they wanted.

 

[LivingToLong]

I like questions like this! Ethical, moral....

Personally, no I wouldn't do it. It'd obviously make no difference to me once I'd gone but I wouldn't want it to be a memory others would have of me. But that's a general rule, I might feel differently in specific cases.

 

[EmptyArms]

If you borrowed rather than accepted a gift of money, then it was explicit or implicit that you would repay it. I dont see how the debtor's suicide would negate the obligation.
As a matter of integrity and probity I would put it on the list of things to get complete before I checked out, in the interest of both feeling and being remembered as an honourable person. That would be important to me.

 

[ManWithNoName]

If you borrowed rather than accepted a gift of money, then it was explicit or implicit that you would repay it. I dont see how the debtor's suicide would negate the obligation.
As a matter of integrity and probity I would put it on the list of things to get complete before I checked out, in the interest of both feeling and being remembered as an honourable person. That would be important to me.

Agreed. But in the discussion that I had, one member brought the situation up, that if he is unable to pay it back i.e. becoming homeless. Many ctb in order to avoid being homeless.

 

[Farmmaa]

Owing a large sum of moey to a friend that I have no way now to pay back is a big part of wanting to CTB.
I don't even have money for rent next month and the guilt is too much to bare

 

[ManWithNoName]

Owing a large sum of moey to a friend that I have no way now to pay back is a big part of wanting to CTB.
I don't even have money for rent next month and the guilt is too much to bare

The amount of money that the member said he owes to his friends each is under USD 2,000. Each one's financial situation is such that it would not put them out or anything.

 

[Not_Quite_Dead_Yet]

I live strongly by the credo "Neither a lender nor a borrower be", especially after being stiffed by several friends I had loaned money to who never paid me a cent back, so my answer is purely hypothetical. But yes, I would do whatever I had to do in order to repay personal debts before checking out as a matter of honor. It is the right thing to do, whether the friend is hurting for money him or her self. I would not want to be remembered as a deadbeat.

 

[BlueWidow]

Does the person have an estate or an insurance policy that might be able to pay the debt after they died? I know most insurance policies don't pay out for suicides. Or, as someone else brought up, perhaps selling possessions left behind by the person would be enough to pay off the debt.
I think there are many circumstances where a person is actually worth more financially dead than they are alive.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Does the person have an estate or an insurance policy that might be able to pay the debt after they died?... I think there are many circumstances where a person is actually worth more financially dead than they are alive.

The guy actually is a sculptor :) and and there is this assumption that his work will increase in value, but that's speculation really as there are plenty of cases of artists dying and their work not increasing in value.

 

[ManWithNoName]

I guess what I'm really asking is, given his current situation of becoming homeless, and the amount of money he owes to his friends being a small amount that would not put any of them out financially, and they he is how bad is it that he carries out ctb? Bear in mind that if he stays alive he might end up getting more money from his friends anyway which is not good.

 

[Soul]

Since he's a sculptor he could bequeath his work to specific friends, making sure to pick works he thinks have a good chance of becoming worth the amount owed in the near future. He can leave notes for the friends to explain and apologise.

 

[voyager]

As the others have said, one should try to repay one's debts if it's realistically possible, but it should also remain within reason. Because as you've mentioned, if one were to be threatened with homelessness, maybe owing further debts to other sources which would seize every penny earned for years to come, then I wouldn't fault someone for defaulting and ctb'ing. Yes, it's slightly immoral, but since it doesn't put the persons out, as you've stated, then personally I'd value the life over the money. No one kills themselves for fun. This is assuming, of course, that there were other issues involved apart from the debt itself.

Hypothetically speaking, though, with our sculptor being hellbent on repaying this debt, but his life forfeit and nothing to lose, he could maybe "borrow" the money from a lowlife of society, like a loan shark or pimp for instance. He could then repay the debts and give the rest to an animal shelter. Sounds like an amiable solution, as long as it remains untraceable. Basically, get creative.

As for myself, I thankfully don't owe anyone money. Well, apart from about 35$ to a school friend. We'd sometimes eat pizza after school and naturally I was always broke. But it's been almost thirty years and we've long lost contact since. It would be absurd to rekindle the friendship, repay him and then go off myself. Not least, because I told him at the time that I was thinking of doing it. Sounds pathetic to me. So, I'll forgive myself, because I think he would.

Money to me is just a means to an end anyhow. Someone owes me about 600$. They've never bothered repaying it, depite having the means to do so and instead borrowed even more. I don't care, though, because I won't need it where I'm going. But I won't be leaving anything to this person either.

 

[ManWithNoName]

As the others have said, one should try to repay one's debts if it's realistically possible, but it should also remain within reason. Because as you've mentioned, if one were to be threatened with homelessness, maybe owing further debts to other sources which would seize every penny earned for years to come, then I wouldn't fault someone for defaulting and ctb'ing. Yes, it's slightly immoral, but since it doesn't put the persons out, as you've stated, then personally I'd value the life over the money. No one kills themselves for fun. This is assuming, of course, that there were other issues involved apart from the debt itself.

Hypothetically speaking, though, with our sculptor being hellbent on repaying this debt, but his life forfeit and nothing to lose, he could maybe "borrow" the money from a lowlife of society, like a loan shark or pimp for instance. He could then repay the debts and give the rest to an animal shelter. Sounds like an amiable solution, as long as it remains untraceable. Basically, get creative.

As for myself, I thankfully don't owe anyone money. Well, apart from about 35$ to a school friend. We'd sometimes eat pizza after school and naturally I was always broke. But it's been almost thirty years and we've long lost contact since. It would be absurd to rekindle the friendship, repay him and then go off myself. Not least, because I told him at the time that I was thinking of doing it. Sounds pathetic to me. So, I'll forgive myself, because I think he would.

Money to me is just a means to an end anyhow. Someone owes me about 600$. They've never bothered repaying it, depite having the means to do so and instead borrowed even more. I don't care, though, because I won't need it where I'm going. But I won't be leaving anything to this person either.

Good points made. He's not hell-bent on repaying the debt (though he would if he could) but rather he's trying to assess how much "bad form" it would be to leave this Earth with what he owes—under the current circumstances.

And yes he already has arranged with a friend to be his art agent of sorts. No, he has not disclosed his intention to carry out self deliverance to him, but at least he has secured some kind of means that, should the public take an interest, that there is already a means set up for the sale of his works.

 

[TAW122]

I don't think it's the greatest thing, especially if it puts the other person in financial jeopardy or ruin (borrowing a large sum of money without intention to return it), but of course if you are checking out, then it wouldn't really matter at the end since you would not be around. Though I am sure that if the creditor (person lending the money) were to recoup it, they could try to go after your assets or money (if you have any) to get back the amount owed.

 

[ManWithNoName]

I don't think it's the greatest thing, especially if it puts the other person in financial jeopardy or ruin (borrowing a large sum of money without intention to return it)

That's his point—that the money owed will not put any of his friends out financially.

 

[Ness]

Honestly, if this were me (which thankfully it is not because I don't borrow from people I know without being sure I can pay it back), I'd do my best to pay it back if I had the money or would get access to money soon enough.

Otherwise I'd give them valuable (or even just semi-valuable) stuff I own and say they can hold onto it 'til they get the money so they don't suspect the ctb. That way no one can confiscate anything, either, due to any suspicions or whatever. Or hold back stuff for investigations which could take forever. Because it's technically theirs, then, and they can sell it at anytime. It may not be as much as was owed but it's still better than nothing.

 

[Daffodil]

I think a true friend would put your suffering over the money.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Honestly, if this were me (which thankfully it is not because I don't borrow from people I know without being sure I can pay it back), I'd do my best to pay it back if I had the money or would get access to money soon enough.

Otherwise I'd give them valuable (or even just semi-valuable) stuff I own and say they can hold onto it 'til they get the money so they don't suspect the ctb. That way no one can confiscate anything, either, due to any suspicions or whatever. Or hold back stuff for investigations which could take forever. Because it's technically theirs, then, and they can sell it at anytime. It may not be as much as was owed but it's still better than nothing.

The best he can do is that he has sculptures which he will leave behind, but we are talking about art which probably has the least value in this World.

 

[Ness]

The best he can do is that he has sculptures which he will leave behind, but we are talking about art which probably has the least value in this World.

Still better than nothing, so he should go for it.

 

[barty1013]

I recently had a conversation ctb related with a few others, and thought I would pose this question that someone had brought to the discussion: is it really bad form to ctb owing money to friends?

I'm not speaking of carrying out self deliverance while still owing money to credit card companies or the banks, but rather owing money to friends.

Some are considering ctb due to lack of being economically viable to the World i.e. not able to see gainful employment where one would be able to pay back debts.

The amount: less than $ 2,000.
The financial status of those owed the money would not put them out financially.

Thoughts?

Absolutely pay those debts

 

[ManWithNoName]

Absolutely pay those debts

But what if one cannot? My friend is in the true dilemma of not able to get work and will end up on the streets anyway because he will be unable to support himself.

 

[barty1013]

But what if one cannot? My friend is in the true dilemma of not able to get work and will end up on the streets anyway because he will be unable to support himself.

I might have missed that being said, I did not read the whole thread, sorry for misunderstanding. I would like to share any information about places to live if it comes to that? I went off the grid and lived in intentional subculture communities when I became homeless with no money. They are spread out all over the world. And at times traveled to gatherings where no money was necessary. Please write me if this sounds feasible for him. I've not been homeless since being aware of the communities and alternative living, but had been off and on for years, before that.

 

[ManWithNoName]

I might have missed that being said, I did not read the whole thread, sorry for misunderstanding. I would like to share any information about places to live if it comes to that? I went off the grid and lived in intentional subculture communities when I became homeless with no money. They are spread out all over the world. And at times traveled to gatherings where no money was necessary. Please write me if this sounds feasible for him. I've not been homeless since being aware of the communities and alternative living, but had been off and on for years, before that.

Thanks, I will.