Question about GULPS Generator.

[Fishman1337]

I read about the GULPS Generator on PPH.

It states that 85% Formic Acid is to be used in the creation of Carbon Monoxide. It also states that this chemical is easy to obtain but every website I checked stated that it's restricted and only available to people who work for specific companies that deal with its usage.

Does it *have* to be 85% specifically?

Same with Sulfuric acid, does it *have* to be 98% like PPH says? I found one that states it's 95%-98%. I'm just about to order that with no hassle.

Everything else seems real easy to obtain.

Just those acids seem a little tricky.

 

[Yaffle]

What country are you in? In the UK it's more difficult to acquire the Sulphuric acid as it was banned above 15% for private use after a spate of acid attacks a few years ago.

I agree, the usual concentration available is 96% which I would go with personally and assume there would sufficient CO produced.

I can get Formic acid but haven't ordered any since I can't get the Sulphuric.

I hate that everything is so difficult and stacked against preparing for CTB.

 

[Fishman1337]

What country are you in? In the UK it's more difficult to acquire the Sulphuric acid as it was banned above 15% for private use after a spate of avid attacks a few years ago.

I agree, the usual concentration available is 96% which I would go with personally and assume there would sufficient CO produced.

I can get Formic acid but haven't ordered any since I can't get the Sulphuric.

I hate that everything is so difficult and stacked against preparing for CTB.

I decline to give exact location, but I'm in the US.

I can easily get something above 85%, but not 85% itself for some reason.

I'll jump the gun and get the higher concentration.

 

[Yaffle]

I decline to give exact location, but I'm in the US.

I can easily get something above 85%, but not 85% itself for some reason.

I'll jump the gun and get the higher concentration.

Country is all I asked, nothing more specific than that.

If you can get >85% then you could always dilute it down to 85% if that concerns you. What concentration can you get?

 

[Meditation guide]

I highly suggest you do a search on Youtube for videos on how to avoid problems with the formic acid. It's important not to breathe the fumes. I wouldn't handle or be around it without a special 3M mask and eye protection.

 

[Yaffle]

I highly suggest you do a search on Youtube for videos on how to avoid problems with the formic acid. It's important not to breathe the fumes. I wouldn't handle or be around it without a special 3M mask and eye protection.

And essential to use a generator such as GULPS to cool and "wash" the CO that's produced.

 

[Fishman1337]

Country is all I asked, nothing more specific than that.

If you can get >85% then you could always dilute it down to 85% if that concerns you. What concentration can you get?

I can get 95% concentration but not 85% for some reason.

I highly suggest you do a search on Youtube for videos on how to avoid problems with the formic acid. It's important not to breathe the fumes. I wouldn't handle or be around it without a special 3M mask and eye protection.

Even if I intend to make Carbon Monoxide with it and Sulfuric acid?

 

[Intoxicated]

I read about the GULPS Generator on PPH.

It states that 85% Formic Acid is to be used in the creation of Carbon Monoxide. It also states that this chemical is easy to obtain but every website I checked stated that it's restricted and only available to people who work for specific companies that deal with its usage.

Does it *have* to be 85% specifically?

You have to dehydrate molecules of formic acid to produce carbon monoxide out of them. If formic acid is mixed with too much water, sulfuric acid will absorb the water out of the solution instead of decomposing molecules of formic acid into water and carbon monoxide at a decent rate. If concentration of formic acid is 85% or higher, it should work well.

Note that formic acid can be replaced with formates, such as sodium formate (sodium methanoate) or potassium formate (potassium methanoate). Mixing a formate with concentrated sulfuric acid will produce formic acid which will be decomposed into carbon monoxide and water

2 HCOONa + H2SO4 = 2HCOOH + Na2SO4
HCOOH = CO + H2O

Same with Sulfuric acid, does it *have* to be 98% like PPH says? I found one that states it's 95%-98%.

I think, anything above 90% should be fine. Perhaps, even 70% sulfuric acid would do the job, although its dehydrating strength is noticeably weaker, so you'd have to wait more time to produce a comparable amount of CO with it.

What country are you in? In the UK it's more difficult to acquire the Sulphuric acid as it was banned above 15% for private use after a spate of acid attacks a few years ago.

It's possible to make concentrated sulfuric acid out of dilute sulfuric acid, although the process is not easy

Amazing Rust.com - Concentrating Sulfuric Acid

If you can obtain phosphorus pentoxide (P4O10, sometimes referred to as P2O5), you can use it to decompose formic acid or absorb water out of dilute sulfuric acid and then use the produced mixture of sulfuric and phosphoric acids to decompose formic acid.

P4O10 is a very strong dehydrating agent, it's stronger than concentrated sulfuric acid (you could even make oleum out of H2SO4 with P4O10). Knowing how violently P4O10 reacts with water, I could expect that the reactions of P4O10 with a solution of formic acid and water can be violent too, so you may need to cool the reagents or use some inhibitor to slow down the reactions

6 H2O + P4O10 = 4 H3PO4
6 HCOOH + P4O10 = 6 CO + 4 H3PO4

 

[Meditation guide]

You have to dehydrate molecules of formic acid to produce carbon monoxide out of them. If formic acid is mixed with too much water, sulfuric acid will absorb the water out of the solution instead of decomposing molecules of formic acid into water and carbon monoxide at a decent rate. If concentration of formic acid is 85% or higher, it should work well.

Note that formic acid can be replaced with formates, such as sodium formate (sodium methanoate) or potassium formate (potassium methanoate). Mixing a formate with concentrated sulfuric acid will produce formic acid which will be decomposed into carbon monoxide and water

2 HCOONa + H2SO4 = 2HCOOH + Na2SO4
HCOOH = CO + H2O


I think, anything above 90% should be fine. Perhaps, even 70% sulfuric acid would do the job, although its dehydrating strength is noticeably weaker, so you'd have to wait more time to produce a comparable amount of CO with it.

It's possible to make concentrated sulfuric acid out of dilute sulfuric acid, although the process is not easy

Amazing Rust.com - Concentrating Sulfuric Acid

If you can obtain phosphorus pentoxide (P4O10, sometimes referred to as P2O5), you can use it to decompose formic acid or absorb water out of dilute sulfuric acid and then use the produced mixture of sulfuric and phosphoric acids to decompose formic acid.

P4O10 is a very strong dehydrating agent, it's stronger than concentrated sulfuric acid (you could even make oleum out of H2SO4 with P4O10). Knowing how violently P4O10 reacts with water, I could expect that the reactions of P4O10 with a solution of formic acid and water can be violent too, so you may need to cool the reagents or use some inhibitor to slow down the reactions

6 H2O + P4O10 = 4 H3PO4
6 HCOOH + P4O10 = 6 CO + 4 H3PO4

We aren't trying to learn chemistry here.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

We aren't trying to learn chemistry here.

This is what makes a suicide attempt successful in this case if you fully understand the chemistry behind it! That's actually the crucial point here with CO!

OP's questions: you will need pure sulfuric acid 96%+ and 85%+ formic acid.

Edit: I studied chemistry for 3 semesters decades ago so I have basic chemistry knowlegde.

 

[Fishman1337]

This is what makes a suicide attempt successful in this case if you fully understand the chemistry behind it! That's actually the crucial point here with CO!

OP's questions: you will need pure sulfuric acid 96%+ and 85%+ formic acid.

Edit: I studied chemistry for 3 semesters decades ago so I have basic chemistry knowlegde.

Thank you, internet stranger.

I found a site that sells it no questions asked, and it's not even dark web.

That was easier than I thought.

I'm gonna slowly gather the supplies needed for the GULPs machine. I'll save the chemicals for last, so they don't arrive earlier than everything else and break down in storage or something while I wait for all the other supplies to ship.

 

[Meditation guide]

I can get 95% concentration but not 85% for some reason.

Even if I intend to make Carbon Monoxide with it and Sulfuric acid?

Yes any time you are working with formic acid.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

I can get 95% concentration but not 85% for some reason.

95% formic acid is even better.

 

[Intoxicated]

The only possible drawback is that it can emit acidic fumes more intensively. Don't try to sniff it.

 

[square329]

How essential is the washing chamber for cleaning the gases emitted if someone were to drip the formic acid into the sulphuric acid (rather than tipping one into the other like in the Gulps machine)? I've got a 2021 copy of PPeH and it doesn't mention washing the gases at all, but it obviously would not a good idea to suffer lung damage due to vapourised sulphuric and/or formic acid by following this blindly!

 

[Intoxicated]

How essential is the washing chamber for cleaning the gases emitted if someone were to drip the formic acid into the sulphuric acid (rather than tipping one into the other like in the Gulps machine)?

Have you ever dealt with 70% acetic acid (vinegar essence)? Its odor is hellish. Concentrated formic acid is worse. It's more volatile and more aggressive than acetic acid. If you try to inhale the product of the reaction without filtering, your experience can be much more unpleasant than with hydrogen sulfide produced without using volatile acids (like HCl). The smell of rotten eggs would seem just like an odor of innocent flowers when compared to formic acid. I don't think that dripping would improve the situation significantly.

Here is a case report about a heroic person who successfully committed suicide without using good filters:

Suicidal chemistry: combined intoxication with carbon monoxide and formic acid - PubMed

Herein, we present a rare case of suicidal intoxication with carbon monoxide produced via reaction of formic and sulphuric acid with additional toxic effect of formic acid. The deceased was a 22-year-old men found dead in the bathroom locked from the inside. A bucket filled with liquid was found...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[huphup]

I was able to get 65% formic acid, is that good enough? I don't think my country sells more than this concentration

 

[Praestat_Mori]

I was able to get 65% formic acid, is that good enough? I don't think my country sells more than this concentration

You would have to do the maths. You may need more formic acid bc simply said only 65% formic acid that can turn into CO + H2O is in 1 liter of 65% formic acid. I'm sorry I can't do the maths rn.

 

[Intoxicated]

I was able to get 65% formic acid, is that good enough?

Perhaps, you'd need to use an excess of sulfuric acid like 4:1 or 5:1 for a good reaction speed.

I don't think my country sells more than this concentration

I'd rather try to obtain sodium formate instead. It's safer than formic acid, and finding nearly 100% pure salt shouldn't be difficult.

 

[Artemisia]

I only have this bad quality image of the gulps generator and would appreciate confirmation of where the tubes go to and come from. I'm guessing the tube coming from the glass jar and into the jug of water has to end under water, so that the generated CO passes through the water. The tube coming from the jug and into the mask isn't submerged right? As the CO rises from the water and fills the chamber.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

I only have this bad quality image of the gulps generator and would appreciate confirmation of where the tubes go to and come from. I'm guessing the tube coming from the glass jar and into the jug of water has to end under water, so that the generated CO passes through the water. The tube coming from the jug and into the mask isn't submerged right? As the CO rises from the water and fills the chamber.

View attachment 140961

 

[Artemisia]

Thank you so much!
But still no view of the tubes inside the water jug, I'm still assuming what I described above, as it's the only way it makes sense to me.