Discussion Putting SN or other salts inside of stomach-acid resistant capsules?

[Kasumi]

Some medications are meant to work in the small intestine and are taken as stomach-resistant capsules.
These capsules can usually be opened and could be filled with stomach irritating substances such as SN or other lethal salts.

Might this help to reduce the chance of vomitting?
What do you guys think?

 

[Innereye]

this was mentioned in the guide, it has a chance of dragging out the process so doesnt seem better than dissolving in water.

 

[Kasumi]

if it recudes chance of vomitting idm if it takes some 2h more to take effect, I'd choose a place where I'm alone for the entire day anyway

 

[Meditation guide]

Stomach acid is going to affect anything and to my knowledge there is no such thing as stomach acid resistant capsules. Gelatin capsules will dissolve in the hydrochloric acid of the stomach and SN will be absorbed from the stomach-- people pass out from SN in 10 minutes so obviously it does not have to make it to the small intestine.

 

[Kasumi]

Stomach acid is going to affect anything and to my knowledge there is no such thing as stomach acid resistant capsules. Gelatin capsules will dissolve in the hydrochloric acid of the stomach and SN will be absorbed from the stomach-- people pass out from SN in 10 minutes so obviously it does not have to make it to the small intestine.

They aren't gelatine capsules, they're purposfully stomach-acid resistant cause the medication inside is supposed to be absorbed from the small intestine and not the stomach.
An example would be Duloxitine.

people pass out from SN in 10 minutes so obviously it does not have to make it to the small intestine.

That wasn't my point, SN just needs to be absorbed by the body, if that happens in the small intestine rather than the stomach it might not trigger a vomitting response but give you the same result.

 

[Battered_Seoul]

I'm with you on this. Vomiting seems like such a significant risk factor for failure, and a drug like Chloroquine for example is rapidly absorbed by the gut in any event, so why not try to mitigate the risk? There's probably something I am missing.

 

[randal_bond]

How will you fit such amount of salt into capsules?

 

[Huggs]

I'm not sure how exactly SN is absorbed…my assumption was it was through the stomach. I heard capsules were not advised but the kinds of capsules you mention sound compelling. Vomiting is a huge risk with SN.

 

[TheNihilisticViking]

I've thought about this as well! However getting hold of SN is getting harder and more risky, due to the somewhat slow crack down on it because of people who have CTB'd and not properly removed where they sourced their SN from. I take probiotics for my Irritable Bowel Syndrome and they come in capsules. I also take my antidepressant (Fluoxetine) and they come in capsules.

 

[Kasumi]

SN is absorbed through the stomach already, again my point isn't that it needs to be absorbed by the small intestine, my point is that by getting it past the stomach "safely" we might be able to avoid triggering a vomitting response?

As far as I know vomitting is a defensive act of the stomach meant to protect against poisons, so AFAIK it's only triggered when something harmful is detected by the stomach in particular, not the small intestine.

Where the SN is absorbed isn't important for our purposes, some people previously used skin patches, occasionally people use some kind of rectal administration, the stomach is just the easiest way to get large quantities into the body that can't be injected or absorbed over the lungs.

@randal_bond not that difficult, you can probably fit roughly 500mg - 1000mg into one capsule, gotta swallow some 10-20 capsules sure, but at least it's not salty and you could always just do half half, capsule / solution, to guarantee that even if you vomit that you have a good chance that enough of it is still getting absorbed through the capsules. Additionally, the lower the amount of salt you put in your stomach the lower the risk of vomitting, it always was advised to go with the lowest guaranteed lethal dose for your body weight. No point doing 25g if you're 45kg only and increasing your risk of vomitting.

I've thought about this as well! However getting hold of SN is getting harder and more risky, due to the somewhat slow crack down on it because of people who have CTB'd and not properly removed where they sourced their SN from. I take probiotics for my Irritable Bowel Syndrome and they come in capsules. I also take my antidepressant (Fluoxetine) and they come in capsules.

worth noting not all capsules are the same but it should say if they are stomach-acid resistent.
I also asked my pharmacist for my specific capsules and they told me that it's easier for pharmaceutical companies to coat the pellets directcly than to coat the entire capsule.
Though they may also do both since they might not be able to guarantee that the pellets remain intact, which is how it is in my case, and I opened one and could confirm some of them were broken.

If you're in doubt just ask your pharmacist for your specific capsules, if they're labled stomach-acid resistant, or stomach-resistant ask if for your medication that refers to the capsule itself or the pellets inside (just state that you're wondering if you could open them up and sprinkle them over your food instead of swallowing).

 

[randal_bond]

SN is absorbed through the stomach already, again my point isn't that it needs to be absorbed by the small intestine, my point is that by getting it past the stomach "safely" we might be able to avoid triggering a vomitting response?

As far as I know vomitting is a defensive act of the stomach meant to protect against poisons, so AFAIK it's only triggered when something harmful is detected by the stomach in particular, not the small intestine.

Where the SN is absorbed isn't important for our purposes, some people previously used skin patches, occasionally people use some kind of rectal administration, the stomach is just the easiest way to get large quantities into the body that can't be injected or absorbed over the lungs.

@randal_bond not that difficult, you can probably fit roughly 500mg - 1000mg into one capsule, gotta swallow some 10-20 capsules sure, but at least it's not salty and you could always just do half half, capsule / solution, to guarantee that even if you vomit that you have a good chance that enough of it is still getting absorbed through the capsules. Additionally, the lower the amount of salt you put in your stomach the lower the risk of vomitting, it always was advised to go with the lowest guaranteed lethal dose for your body weight. No point doing 25g if you're 45kg only and increasing your risk of vomitting.

worth noting not all capsules are the same but it should say if they are stomach-acid resistent.
I also asked my pharmacist for my specific capsules and they told me that it's easier for pharmaceutical companies to coat the pellets directcly than to coat the entire capsule.
Though they may also do both since they might not be able to guarantee that the pellets remain intact, which is how it is in my case, and I opened one and could confirm some of them were broken.

If you're in doubt just ask your pharmacist for your specific capsules, if they're labled stomach-acid resistant, or stomach-resistant ask if for your medication that refers to the capsule itself or the pellets inside (just state that you're wondering if you could open them up and sprinkle them over your food instead of swallowing).

Understand your point, Kasumi. From what I read about gastro-resistant capsules, they release medication (or poison) gradually even in small intestines. That will mean slow protracted death and a much higher risk of SI kicking in. I absolutely wouldn't recommend it. I wouldn't boof it, either. Irritation will cause the reaction like in explosive diarrhoea. Try bicarb soda or any inoffensive salt solution, and you'll see what I mean.

I'd follow PPeH recommendations.

 

[Huggs]

worth noting not all capsules are the same but it should say if they are stomach-acid resistent.
I also asked my pharmacist for my specific capsules and they told me that it's easier for pharmaceutical companies to coat the pellets directcly than to coat the entire capsule.
Though they may also do both since they might not be able to guarantee that the pellets remain intact, which is how it is in my case, and I opened one and could confirm some of them were broken.

If you're in doubt just ask your pharmacist for your specific capsules, if they're labled stomach-acid resistant, or stomach-resistant ask if for your medication that refers to the capsule itself or the pellets inside (just state that you're wondering if you could open them up and sprinkle them over your food instead of swallowing).

Wouldn't it be safer to purchase empty acid resistant capsules in that case?
Probably the risks with capsules is the amount of water to potentially swallow them and SN being digested too gradually to where it's not as effective (worst case would be slow to the point where the body is purging the methemoglobin, though I don't think that's likely), or getting digested incompletely.
But this way of administration sounds like it could be good, I wonder why acid resident capsules haven't been brought up in the guides and PPEH.

 

[Kasumi]

Understand your point, Kasumi. From what I read about gastro-resistant capsules, they release medication (or poison) gradually even in small intestines. That will mean slow protracted death and a much higher risk of SI kicking in. I absolutely wouldn't recommend it. I wouldn't boof it, either. Irritation will cause the reaction like in explosive diarrhoea. Try bicarb soda or any inoffensive salt solution, and you'll see what I mean.

I'd follow PPeH recommendations.

might be worth trying with some 10g of table salt first and see how the body reacts.
additionally I should ask my pharmacy or my doctor the next time how quickly they release the medication.
thank you for the info!

Wouldn't it be safer to purchase empty acid resistant capsules in that case?
Probably the risks with capsules is the amount of water to potentially swallow them and SN being digested too gradually to where it's not as effective (worst case would be slow to the point where the body is purging the methemoglobin, though I don't think that's likely), or getting digested incompletely.

lol probably I just never heard that u could actually buy empty ones.
Yea, release speed is something to figure out, but I'd personally just add it in for the extra safety, like I'd probably be good with some 15g of SN, so I might add some 5g extra in capsules to be on the safer side or smth, in case my metabolism is exceedingly fast in holding out then the additional 5g later might push it over the edge.

But this way of administration sounds like it could be good, I wonder why acid resident capsules haven't been brought up in the guides and PPEH.

I mean probably there is at least some sort of catch with this, but that's what this discussion is for.

 

[Huggs]

There's mentions of gelatin capsules being bad in some threads but not these enteric coated ones. It's weird to me because they sound like some hidden gem with how they can circumvent nausea potentially, the thought that PPEH and the guides on here overlooked them is weird, could be true though. Maybe aside from the water, how it can hit you in waves over time, slow digestion and incomplete digestion concerns there's also a risk of the capsules breaking open in the stomach still and then everything being vomited out prematurely with not enough absorbed. The smaller amount in that kind of case, potentially enough to vomit but not kill could be worse than vomiting with the liquid solution where there's a bigger amount that could've been absorbed by then and be enough.

 

[Battered_Seoul]

The capsules are called enteric coated capsules. Gelatin capsules are mentioned as an option for Chloroquine specifically in the PPH. As Chloroquine is absorbed through the gut I'm logically assuming that enteric coated capsules are also valid.

A manual/automatic capsule filler could also be a useful purchase.
It seems to be possible to purchase empty enteric coated capsules online and ship internationally.

 

[Huggs]

There's another thread on enteric capsules that mentions the idea of taking the capsules, waiting a time and then taking the liquid solution on top of that which is interesting…
It takes between 40 and 120-plus minutes for food to pass through the stomach apparently so maybe the capsules could be taken, then after 2 hours give or take the solution.

These might be a problem:
"The signs and symptoms of methemoglobinemia correlate with the amount of methemoglobin and the presence of underlying medical disease (predominantly anemia, coronary artery disease, and pulmonary disease). The symptoms are similar to those of hypoxemia. The half-life of methemoglobin is 55 minutes."
Benzocaine-Induced Methemoglobinemia - PMC - NCBI

"The time required for an enteric-coated dosage form to reach the intestine mostly depends on the presence and type of food in the stomach. It varies from 30 minutes up to 7 hours, with an average time of 6 hours."
Enteric coating - Wikipedia

Methemoglobin only lasting 55 minutes could be bad with slow release capsules.