Discussion Psychiatric medication experiences; Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker

[myopybyproxy]

Firstly, I will apologise for the disorganisation in this post. My mind is quite scattered as of late. I feel many emotions within a short timespan. I wonder if there are others like me.

I'd encourage everyone to read it, and if you have, what are your views on this book? I have just finished reading it. I have so much I want to say but it all feels pointless. Whitaker ends the book on a hopeful note, but I've seen in my everyday life evidence to the contrary. Most people I know take psychiatric drugs and have negative outcomes. I'm halfway through my third year of a four-year degree and in all my psychology classes (my field of study), we're told about the dopamine and serotonin hypotheses; medication is endorsed as a first-line treatment whereas therapy is seen as lesser. Now I take issue with the current state of therapy as well. Surely there has to be something out there I've yet to come across.

I've been minding the neighbours' children regularly for the last four or so years. It's heartbreaking to watch how they went from gregarious and active to overweight or obese and only interested in sitting in front of the computer. Their twelve year old is on aripiprazole and all three children are on guanfacine. I feel so lucky that my parents are open minded and have tried alternative treatments for myself and my siblings. (The fact that I still wish to be dead can be interpreted in two ways: these treatments do not work or I'm a hopeless cause; or I live in a sick society and in suboptimal conditions. I prefer to believe the latter but I've no clue how to begin building a different society, such that it's easier to just give up.)

My only relatively-long term experience with psychiatric medication was with sertraline (Zoloft) for about eight weeks in 2020. The hospital required me to be on it in order to move from the Eating Disorders unit to the general adolescent psychiatric unit. Midway through my seven week stay at a residential facility, I tapered off of it. From the first week I was on it, until the end, I experienced dissociation (which I'd never struggled with before) that came and went. That exacerbated my eating disorder, as I couldn't tell when I was full, so I kept eating. That also made my self harming much worse, because it was one of the only ways I could feel anything anymore. I ended up self harming far more during my stay in inpatient and residential than at any other point in my life. Being treated like a victim, with no say or input into my future, combined with the dissociative side effects of the sertraline, made me only more depressed and apathetic.

What other books, success stories, and resources are there that take a critical view of psychiatric medication and discuss alternative therapies? Whitaker discusses the approach to treatment used in Lapland, Finland, where they hold an open-dialogue, collaborative type of family therapy for schizophrenic spectrum disorders.

I know of the following:

Home

Mad in America’s mission is to serve as a catalyst for rethinking psychiatric care in the United States (and abroad). We believe that the current drug-based paradigm of care has failed our society, and that scientific research, as well as the lived experience of those who have been diagnosed...

www.madinamerica.com

Reddit - The heart of the internet

www.reddit.com

John Nash's story - professor who recovered from schizophrenia and returned to teaching with the support of his wife and employer, lived psychosis and medication free until his death (the autobiographical movie A Beautiful Mind fictionalises the part where he stays on the meds)

Please share any information you have about these topics, and feel free to include personal experience or observations regarding psych meds.

 

[CommitSudoku]

I really like how you write. Where did you find the book? Namely, is it available online? Curious where I could find it, and if it's only something I'd have to seek out irl.

Firstly, I will apologise for the disorganisation in this post. My mind is quite scattered as of late. I feel many emotions within a short timespan. I wonder if there are others like me.

No need to apologize, and I feel I'm often the same though currently I'm probably luckier that I mostly have a default state of "bland numb person." My emotions seem to self-regulate which is a blessing since I often randomly feel like crying, then I return to numb or effectively distract myself. On weekends especially when I have time to slow down, I'm all over the place. Usually crazy depressed, sometimes hating the world, sometimes regret everything and nothing, etc. etc. It seems that exhaustion seems to be the most reliable of anything, since no matter the emotion it's there in some form.

Please say as much as you want to/can, especially since I don't have the book and I'm afraid I might never read it. I foresee myself never getting to do a lot of things.

For what you said about watching the children change, I feel the current state of life/society might be forcing that on us all. So many of us will work hunched over a desk on a computer and even if children don't have devices now, they'll have them in their life in a few years since they're being incorporated into everything. This might be off topic but I feel as a whole we're going downhill when we barely go outside anymore. We're disconnected.

For the stay you mentioned in the hospital, how did they let you off the medication finally? That whole experience sounds like a nightmare.

What other books, success stories, and resources are there that take a critical view of psychiatric medication and discuss alternative therapies? Whitaker discusses the approach to treatment used in Lapland, Finland, where they hold an open-dialogue, collaborative type of family therapy for schizophrenic spectrum disorders.

Unfortunately I don't know too much on this topic and have no sources to share. I liked hearing your thoughts on it. It made me think of a mentally ill family member who's been on meds for years and will likely be on them forever. He had some trauma that I doubt was ever explored or attempted to be resolved outside of medication. He goes to group sessions but he's smart enough to act how they want him to, so it's basically just a charade to keep an eye on him without accomplishing much. And despite being on the medication for years he still has delusions of grandeur and such. He always believed the end times were coming but perhaps he was on to something with that, given the direction the world is taking now.

Very interesting topic, I wish I had more relevant and meaningful thoughts to bring but not so much. I hope more is commented.

 

[myopybyproxy]

I really like how you write. Where did you find the book? Namely, is it available online? Curious where I could find it, and if it's only something I'd have to seek out irl.

It seems to be available on Amazon and Goodreads as well as those sketchy websites that want your billing information. If you have an account at your irl local library (takes travel time plus five minutes to get a card and make an account), they often have an online extension where you can borrow films and ebooks. I have an account with Hoopla and my local libraries - if I could figure out how to share my account through DM, you could borrow it there.

I foresee myself never getting to do a lot of things.

Yeah...me too. It's depressing but it's the truth. I don't want to live in a delusional bubble. On another forum I was talking to someone who was trying to convince me that suicide is not the answer, and they admitted that they must put on blinders to get through each day. I was like, '...you are proving my exact point, how do you not see that'.

For what you said about watching the children change, I feel the current state of life/society might be forcing that on us all. So many of us will work hunched over a desk on a computer and even if children don't have devices now, they'll have them in their life in a few years since they're being incorporated into everything. This might be off topic but I feel as a whole we're going downhill when we barely go outside anymore. We're disconnected.

I agree. Even in my own family, my younger siblings spend more time online than I ever did at their ages. It's not off-topic at all; in some way everything is interconnected. All the problems of society build on each other. Being disconnected is how society will eventually collapse if world war three doesn't kill us all first. United we stand, divided we fall.

For the stay you mentioned in the hospital, how did they let you off the medication finally? That whole experience sounds like a nightmare.

It was hell and the reason why I am determined never to go back inpatient as long as I live. I am very lucky that my parents recognised the damage that was occurring and they supported me in getting off the meds. They advocated for me; anything I said to the doctors that might be regarded as noncompliant (even legitimate critique of their 'treatment') was simply proof of my illness. When I was able to leave residential (that's another story, but TL;DR, 'treatment' is a crock of shit), I went to a partial hospitalisation programme, whereupon I went to an intensive outpatient, etc. So I didn't just go on meds inpatient and then go back to business as usual. That would've been even more jarring. The outcome could easily have been very different had I had parents with a more conservative perspective, which makes me feel even worse that I dare contemplate killing myself. And round and round in circles we go...sigh.

Unfortunately I don't know too much on this topic and have no sources to share. I liked hearing your thoughts on it. It made me think of a mentally ill family member who's been on meds for years and will likely be on them forever. He had some trauma that I doubt was ever explored or attempted to be resolved outside of medication. He goes to group sessions but he's smart enough to act how they want him to, so it's basically just a charade to keep an eye on him without accomplishing much. And despite being on the medication for years he still has delusions of grandeur and such. He always believed the end times were coming but perhaps he was on to something with that, given the direction the world is taking now.

I appreciate your response even if you've no sources to add. Hopefully others can add to the discussion too.

Your description of the family member resonates - that charade was exactly what I did during my brush with the mental health'care' system. I didn't find it helpful, so I said and did what they wanted me to say and do, and eventually they turned me loose, satisfied that another deviant was 'fixed'. They really don't accomplish anything. All the people I was in treatment with said the same thing; exactly zero felt the treatment was helping them and many felt it had made things worse. Group therapy can also only do so much, especially when you can't be as open as you'd like due to potentially triggering other people. Even individual therapy - one hour once a week is nowhere near enough.

He no doubt has good foresight, haha. The world is going to shit. Or maybe I'm just mentally ill too :P

 

[CommitSudoku]

Here's hoping for more discussion here. I'd like to see where it progresses. I'll try to get the book through some means, I do have a library card, but I also have anxiety which is at odds with going there, but I'll check online and try to read when I'm not "working." A few more thoughts, hope ya don't mind.

I agree. Even in my own family, my younger siblings spend more time online than I ever did at their ages. It's not off-topic at all; in some way everything is interconnected. All the problems of society build on each other. Being disconnected is how society will eventually collapse if world war three doesn't kill us all first. United we stand, divided we fall.

This made me think of what my dad told me a few weeks ago when he was visiting his brother. His brother's daughter was over and thus his grandchildren were there. I asked, "doesn't that make it chaotic and hard for your brother?" (at that point he was aware more but in incredible pain) My dad said it wasn't bad since all the grandchildren but the toddler were on electronic devices and barely looked up. When I was finally able to visit my uncle not too long ago he was doped to the point he fell asleep and couldn't have held a conversation anyways. I know the children are young and it's not their fault, but they're literally missing out on their grandfather to play games on the electronics. I'm not really one to talk with my lack of social skills, anxiety, and shyness, but I would have liked to hear my uncle tell stories again if I had had the chance. I feel like the electronics are disconnecting us so much and then it becomes too late in some ways. Again though I'm not one to talk either though since my best connections, and only real ones outside of family, are online. Still I see it all as a decline.

Thank you for sharing your experience with the hospital/inpatient/doctors/medication/etc. So many of them and all they did was harm you more. That truly sounds like a nightmare and I'm glad your parents lessened the torture of it a bit. I feel you as well with the circles we go around and around in. It feels like we're not even taught how to live. Maybe we're supposed to for ourselves but that doesn't happen, and is it right to live for anyone else? Even if they were the ones to bring you into the world, we didn't ask for that. I don't know. I. Know. Nothing.

He no doubt has good foresight, haha. The world is going to shit. Or maybe I'm just mentally ill too :P

Perhaps we all have to be crazy to even live in this world and we've just never realized it? How else have we made it so long with everything that seems to work against us? But then what is crazy and what's normal, in some ways deciding on those lends to hurting some people.

 

[eryu]

I tried to come off antidepressants (mostly SSRIs) a few years ago. I'd been taking them since I was a child and really just getting progressively worse.
About 3 months off, I started to hit the rocks so I went back on.
Pretty much within a half hour of taking the first pill, I felt weird physical affects.
I consulted my doctor who advised me to keep on them.
I never reached a point of stability again. I got even worse.
After a hellish year, I decided to come off a second time.
Some relief from that but also gradual deterioration, with withdrawal symptoms peaking nearly a year on from that.

That was several years ago now. I am not as bad off as I was then so some might say I am 'healing' but I haven't recovered in any meaningful way. In an environment with toxic levels of stress. Developed food sensitivities and sensitivities to airborne particles so being exposed to various household (or outdoor) things triggers internal shaking feelings, lightheadedness, restricted breathing.

I can't think and focus. I'm stricken with panic and dizziness trying to initiate anything. The idea of talking to a doctor who would just dismiss everything is gut wrenching. I would feel powerless and humiliated and I am sure the experience would fuel explosive fits of rage for many years to come.
There is no significant respite in the form of entertainment or actively engaging with anything. By the time I had got enough energy back to sometimes do things, my sensitivities to dust and mold were bad enough that doing anything to clean the filthy environment was risky for more than just stress it caused (and my resilience to stress has gotten very low anyway).
When I try to think and read anything moderately difficult, my brain sort of feels fizzy and then just become useless. My face sometimes feel it's going slack in a way that makes me think of stroke victims.

I've seen stories of recovery but
- it usually seems to be people who took meds for less than a year or a few years at most
- they take several years and maybe a decade to recover
- they aren't completely recovered - it's just that their symptoms are finally livable
- it is common that they have significant support from loved ones or were functional enough to support themselves in various ways
- 1 year of living like this is not worth anything good that might come after (and in the beginning I would say even a single day)

I try not to think of it mostly. It makes me very angry though sometimes.
I am 'recovering' but that just means things aren't quite as hellish. At this rate of 'recovery', I might be able to have subpar functioning in another couple decades. And even as I get 'better' in some ways, other parts seem to get worse.

 

[UpandDownPrincess]

I used to spend a lot of time reading over at Mad in America, and I've read pretty much all of Whitaker's stuff. I had to leave, though, because it was simply too one-sided for me. Meds have been helpful for me, and I did have a great psychiatrist who really cared. But there was no room for any acknowledgement of that there.

I do believe our society is dangerously overmedicating children. You'll get no argument from me there. But teachers want docile kids. And parents want kids that are obedient at home. Behavioral solutions take time, effort and practice. They require all the prominent adults in a kid's life to get on the same page. And that rarely happens.

It can be just as tough for adults. There is real evidence that talk therapy is more effective than SSRIs, but it's not just psychiatrists who want a quick fix. Patients often insist that they do not have time for talk therapy, not realizing that SSRIs take the same 4-6 weeks to build up in their systems.

I do know that not all shrinks are great. Some just suck and others are dangerous. But all professionals are like that. There are good ones and bad ones. It seems like it should be different when you;'e messing around in people's heads, but people are people, no matter the profession.

I refuse to condemn psychiatry outright. It can be helpful. But just like any other healthcare situation, you've got to be your own advocate and manage your own best care. And that can be damn hard to do when you're already suffering.

 

[myopybyproxy]

I tried to come off antidepressants (mostly SSRIs) a few years ago. I'd been taking them since I was a child and really just getting progressively worse.
About 3 months off, I started to hit the rocks so I went back on.
Pretty much within a half hour of taking the first pill, I felt weird physical affects.
I consulted my doctor who advised me to keep on them.
I never reached a point of stability again. I got even worse.
After a hellish year, I decided to come off a second time.
Some relief from that but also gradual deterioration, with withdrawal symptoms peaking nearly a year on from that.

That was several years ago now. I am not as bad off as I was then so some might say I am 'healing' but I haven't recovered in any meaningful way. In an environment with toxic levels of stress. Developed food sensitivities and sensitivities to airborne particles so being exposed to various household (or outdoor) things triggers internal shaking feelings, lightheadedness, restricted breathing.

I can't think and focus. I'm stricken with panic and dizziness trying to initiate anything. The idea of talking to a doctor who would just dismiss everything is gut wrenching. I would feel powerless and humiliated and I am sure the experience would fuel explosive fits of rage for many years to come.
There is no significant respite in the form of entertainment or actively engaging with anything. By the time I had got enough energy back to sometimes do things, my sensitivities to dust and mold were bad enough that doing anything to clean the filthy environment was risky for more than just stress it caused (and my resilience to stress has gotten very low anyway).
When I try to think and read anything moderately difficult, my brain sort of feels fizzy and then just become useless. My face sometimes feel it's going slack in a way that makes me think of stroke victims.

I've seen stories of recovery but
- it usually seems to be people who took meds for less than a year or a few years at most
- they take several years and maybe a decade to recover
- they aren't completely recovered - it's just that their symptoms are finally livable
- it is common that they have significant support from loved ones or were functional enough to support themselves in various ways
- 1 year of living like this is not worth anything good that might come after (and in the beginning I would say even a single day)

I try not to think of it mostly. It makes me very angry though sometimes.
I am 'recovering' but that just means things aren't quite as hellish. At this rate of 'recovery', I might be able to have subpar functioning in another couple decades. And even as I get 'better' in some ways, other parts seem to get worse.

That sounds horrible, I'm so sorry you went and are going through that suffering. My heart breaks for you. I and several immediate family members have similar mycotoxin sensitivity, although thankfully mine is mild enough that it doesn't greatly impede my quality of life to the extent that theirs - and yours - do. I just wanted to let you know that you're not crazy. What you experienced is real and many others have experienced similar.

You're right, it's a lot of 'what ifs' and unbearable torment to put up with for quite a long time only for a possible chance at a better life. I can see why suicide appeals to you. Anyone would be angry if they went through what you did. Hell, if anyone's in your position and they're not outright suicidal, I would dare say they're delusional. The cognitive and neurological symptoms alone are terrifying. And of course for anxiety they will simply prescribe you more medication...the health'care' system is utterly broken.

I wish I could hug you. I wish I could do something to help - clean your living space, maybe. (I actually enjoy cleaning, lol.) I don't want to preach - it'd be hypocritical, for one - and I know how exhausting it is to even try to put the pieces back together when things have fallen apart to where there is no coherent larger picture - but if you're interested in some resources for the mycotoxin sensitivity, I can DM you. (And of course, you're also welcome to tell me to fuck off.) Let me know.

I know there are also Facebook support groups for those withdrawing from medications, but I'm not on Facebook so I can't get the links.

I used to spend a lot of time reading over at Mad in America, and I've read pretty much all of Whitaker's stuff. I had to leave, though, because it was simply too one-sided for me. Meds have been helpful for me, and I did have a great psychiatrist who really cared. But there was no room for any acknowledgement of that there.

I do believe our society is dangerously overmedicating children. You'll get no argument from me there. But teachers want docile kids. And parents want kids that are obedient at home. Behavioral solutions take time, effort and practice. They require all the prominent adults in a kid's life to get on the same page. And that rarely happens.

It can be just as tough for adults. There is real evidence that talk therapy is more effective than SSRIs, but it's not just psychiatrists who want a quick fix. Patients often insist that they do not have time for talk therapy, not realizing that SSRIs take the same 4-6 weeks to build up in their systems.

I do know that not all shrinks are great. Some just suck and others are dangerous. But all professionals are like that. There are good ones and bad ones. It seems like it should be different when you;'e messing around in people's heads, but people are people, no matter the profession.

I refuse to condemn psychiatry outright. It can be helpful. But just like any other healthcare situation, you've got to be your own advocate and manage your own best care. And that can be damn hard to do when you're already suffering.

Whitaker does acknowledge that meds have their place, unless I misread him. You make some good points - even I am guilty of seeking a quick fix. Small aside - isn't suicide the ultimate quick fix?

I'm glad you've found a treatment that works for you - even jealous that you've found a psychiatrist whom you connect with.

You're right, behavioural treatments are much more involved than simply popping a pill. But the benefits are similarly long lasting. I think that meds can be helpful for some, particularly in the short term, as tools to help someone better engage in behavioural therapies.

I would like to emphasise your last point - being your own advocate in the confusing maze of treatment is difficult enough already for neurotypical individuals who aren't at a crisis level or breaking point. For people like us, it's difficult to the point of being nearly impossible. No one makes it alone. We all need support.

Even the most extroverted self-starter didn't make it in a vacuum. Malcolm Gladwell has a book called Outliers that describes how success is not just a matter of trying hard - it's the perfect combination of luck, being in the right place at the right time, knowing the right people, and having skill. Trying hard may be the least important ingredient but it's most of what we can control. Short of seeking out mentors and opportunities and aggressively networking - very difficult to do, again - the other factors aren't as controllable.

 

[eryu]

I just wanted to let you know that you're not crazy. What you experienced is real and many others have experienced similar.

Thank you. For that and the whole post, really. I do know that but it helps to hear it. I always fear being gaslit and not even really able to defend anything I'm saying.

I wish I could hug you. I wish I could do something to help - clean your living space, maybe. (I actually enjoy cleaning, lol.)

That would be wonderful (both the hug and the cleaning). I actually like cleaning too and making things tidy and I hate that I can't (I do as much as I'm able to tolerate and sometimes regret it for days). Really should get some sort of air filter but brain often just shuts down when trying to make decisions (putting it very mildly).
I do have one friend irl who has helped with certain things but he is suffering from withdrawal too and barely keeps up managing his own life.

I probably can't do much with the resources for mycotoxin sensitivity (either reading/learning or putting anything meaningful into practice) but maybe I could pass them onto my friend.