A

ASwissGuy99

Just a lonely wanderer, wandering aimlessly
Mar 16, 2023
85
Are pro lifers really right when they claim there's never a reason to choose death never a reason to despair, never a reason to give up?

They claim there's always hope for a better life, a better future.

Hope for getting health, or if not, success in life despite disabilities or other issues.

They often cite people like Stephen Hawking and Nick Vujic to prove, no matter what obstacles, you can and will succeed in life if you try hard enough, guaranteed.

Question is, how are pro lifers so immensely optimistic?
 
progeria

progeria

Member
Jul 18, 2021
44
I think that they themselves are hidden suicides, they are just afraid to admit it to themselves.
 
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FuneralCry

FuneralCry

Just wanting some peace
Sep 24, 2020
38,887
They are in fact incredibly delusional, I mean they must be in order to believe what they do. I think that they fear the thought of suicide being the more logical option, they don't want to accept that suicide is a rational solution so they force the mindset they have onto other people which is something that is really insensitive. It actually disgusts me that so many are against suicide in this world, nobody has any right to say that suicide isn't an option for someone else as after all, it's not their life.
 
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LiminalFantasies

LiminalFantasies

Dwelling within darkness
Mar 18, 2021
34
Pro-lifers are really biased, influenced mainly by the religion, location and culture they grew and developed in. As a result, no matter what you tell them that suicide should be an option regardless of reason, they will be difficult to persuade and convince them that should be more acceptable to grant someome the right of terminating their own life.

I grew in a christian catholic household, where they aren't that devoted to it but they hold the mindset that suicide is a sinful act because they believe that the person who wants to CTB is desapreciating their biggest "gift" given: the fact that they have life and born on this planet. They often say that you have one life, enjoy the moments that life offers...

But, I don't really see the appeal of life being special, like with many others on this forum as well... I also don't see any reason to remain optimistic all the time in order to really appreciate life, and I feel that life can't be appreciated anymore...

They also tend to be very optimistic, often with a religious undertone attached to their reasons of their negative views about suicide.

They also believe that taking care of the closest ones is an act of love, from religious and cultural principles taught by their community. They get emotionally and mentally attached to their loved ones, that is especially the case for families that believe that moral value. They don't want to see their loved ones hurt, so everything they do, they will affect them. Is like a some kind of emotional dependence that relies on another person. Therefore, is also the most likely reason of their grieving in the event that they die regardless of reason.

However, what makes suicide deaths different from others like murder by someone or an accident is that is also often comes with anger on top of the already overwhelming turmoil of emotions, which really makes think like emotional dependence...
 
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LookAway

LookAway

Student
Mar 19, 2023
181
We are all programmed and taught o believe and think the way that we do.. it's not until you end up in our situation that you start to understand.. people don't understand what they haven't been through usually.
 
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L

leavingsoon99

I'm at peace... Finally.
Mar 16, 2023
722
Are pro lifers really right when they claim there's never a reason to choose death never a reason to despair, never a reason to give up?

They claim there's always hope for a better life, a better future.

Hope for getting health, or if not, success in life despite disabilities or other issues.

They often cite people like Stephen Hawking and Nick Vujic to prove, no matter what obstacles, you can and will succeed in life if you try hard enough, guaranteed.

Question is, how are pro lifers so immensely optimistic?
The human is, by and large, afraid of death. We're wired to survive, which is curious in and of itself. I mean, the insidiousness of programming your creation to survive... yet death is inevitable. That almost seems like a sick joke from the cosmos. However, 'hope' is a coping mechanism. It's meant to give life purpose. Sometimes, hope can be well founded. Oftentimes, it's pathological. Humans will point to the 2 or 3 success stories out of the tens of thousands of failed and unsuccessful cases of human ventures and say, "See, ANYONE can succeed. You just have to TRY!!!" It's like seeing someone from your hometown win the lottery. "If that guy can, then I can... it's been done!!!" Never mind the numerous obstacles from how humans have decided to organize themselves, "IT'S POSSIBLE, DAMMIT!!!"
 
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Spaztism

Spaztism

Sleep Forever
Mar 13, 2023
32
I think that they themselves are hidden suicides, they are just afraid to admit it to themselves.
This legit one of my family members. always says they have had it worse than me and tell me I'm a coward daily when I'm feeling low.
 
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Seven Threads

Seven Threads

Iterator
Mar 5, 2023
95
Hey there, ASwissGuy99! I'm a pro lifer. I believe that life is worth living, that the world and the people in it have a lot to offer, and that a better life is possible for, if not all, at least most people. I think that suicide is a tragedy, and I mourn those (my own Aunt included) who lose themselves to it.

With that out of the way, to answer your question...no. No, pro lifers are not right that there's never a reason to give up, choose death, or fall into despair. There are plenty of reasons for these things. We as human beings can only take so much before we break. Many of us really can get better, but will never realistically have the resources and support they need to do so. And some...just don't want to. They're tired, they don't want to go through the pain and struggle it would take to get there, and that's okay.

I think where pro lifers get it wrong is they often turn the subject of suicidality into a moral issue, instead of a human one. Death is always wrong, no matter what. Giving up is selfish and hurts the people who love you. Protecting people from themselves until they can get better is virtuous, no matter what it takes away from them in the process. Letting go makes you a bad person, be it legging go of yourself or of someone dear to you. I think they lose track of the human element, that this is supposed to be about someone else's human suffering, not some kind of ethical imperative.

And also, I think it might be a survival mechanism. You can see this most prominently in people who are struggling to hold on and find meaning in the world themselves. They simply can't accept that holding on may not he worth it, that sometimes things really can't get better, and it'd be unreasonable to expect them to. That for some, death may be the better option. They can't accept this because they want to live in a world where these things are not true. Some of them need these things to not be true, because if they are, it could be true for them. It's existentially terrifying to have to come to grips with the idea that life itself sometimes simply doesn't allow for somebody to be okay, despite anyone's best intentions. For these people, insisting that things can always be better is a coping strategy that they need in order to be okay themselves, and I'm not sure I can really blame them for that. We're all suffering, we're all doing what we feel we need to, consciously or unconsciously, to stave off that suffering, and that's as true for the people fighting against right to die as those who are fighting for it.

I can't excuse the effects it has though. Ironically, the stigma that suicidal people face, that they can't be open about their ideation or their struggles for fear of ostracization, involuntary confinement, or well meaning but no less traumatizing 'interventions' by people who can never truly understand, just creates more suffering and harm. It drives people underground, and cuts them off from the very resources, support, and connections that can actually make things better. The isolation that comes with suicidality (as well as some of its causes, such as depression) can be one of the most painful and miserable things a human being can experience. We are social creatures; we need people. And the fact that people with suicidal thoughts or intentions can't have people in their lives they could openly talk to or commiserate with just exacerbates the suffering that is already there, and prevents the people who do want to recover and whose lives could get better from being able to access or trust the support they need to do so.

I honestly believe that if more people felt they could come out into the open without fear of repercussions or the judgment of society at large, there would be fewer suicides in general. I think people on the pro life side of the argument often forget that.

Honestly, I think what people who are suicidal really need is just some basic compassion and understanding. And this holds true whether they want to recover or they don't. Even someone who's fully committed to catching the bus and ending things at some point deserves to be understood and to feel like people care about them in their final days. Empathy is really the only thing we have at the end of the day to push back against the tide of human suffering in whatever form it takes, and those of us who want there to be less suffering in the world have a self-proscribed duty to extend that. It's really the only thing we can do.



Edit: I just realized my own description of myself means I probably qualify as pro choice, not pro life. Apologies, I'm relatively new to this community and still learning the terminology.
 
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Lost in a Dream

Lost in a Dream

He/him - Metal head
Feb 22, 2020
1,776
Edit: I just realized my own description of myself means I probably qualify as pro choice, not pro life. Apologies, I'm relatively new to this community and still learning the terminology.

And the whole time I was reading your post, I was thinking, "I wish all pro-lifers could be more like this person." just because you seem more empathetic than the pro-lifers who usually come here. Now that I know you're pro-choice, it makes sense why I agreed with a lot of what you had to say, but if the average pro-lifer had more empathy for someone who wants to die, then maybe recovery would be possible for more of us.

Instead, most of them try to push pills and therapy on us, demanding that we keep trying until it gets better, or else. Not being allowed to give up because someone else forbids it, makes some people want to give up much sooner than they might otherwise have.
 
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lost-unfound

Member
Mar 10, 2023
24
I think people are afraid to consider the option of death, so they invent reasons to eliminate it as an option so they never have to think about it
 
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Seven Threads

Seven Threads

Iterator
Mar 5, 2023
95
And the whole time I was reading your post, I was thinking, "I wish all pro-lifers could be more like this person." just because you seem more empathetic than the pro-lifers who usually come here. Now that I know you're pro-choice, it makes sense why I agreed with a lot of what you had to say, but if the average pro-lifer had more empathy for someone who wants to die, then maybe recovery would be possible for more of us.

Instead, most of them try to push pills and therapy on us, demanding that we keep trying until it gets better, or else. Not being allowed to give up because someone else forbids it, makes some people want to give up much sooner than they might otherwise have.
I think perhaps I should clarify my stance a little bit. I definitely understand a lot of the pro life perspective, and on a personal level, I have strong feelings about the act of suicide itself. I don't think I could ever advocate for or support it directly, only try to understand that people need to have the option to choose it for themselves. I'm going to come right out and say it: I personally believe that most of those who choose suicide are making the wrong choice. If I tried to say that I could really understand that decision, or ever really accept that it made the most sense or was the right choice for them, I'd be lying to myself and to all of you, and that kind of dishonesty doesn't help anybody. I also have some problems with the narrative that people are even able to make that choice under significant duress, as I don't personally believe that a choice made with a gun to your head is really a choice at all. You don't say that someone who chose a long leap to the concrete over the burning building they just jumped out of really had a meaningful choice in the matter. These are my sincere beliefs on the matter, which I think is why I identify myself more as a pro lifer than anything else, and I present them in good faith.

That being said, to use the earlier metaphor, I recognize that advocating for someone to stay in that burning building doesn't really work either. The real solution is to put out the fire. And, failing that, I don't think anyone in that position could be judged for taking that leap. It just doesn't help. And on the subject of things that don't help, trying to enforce these views, to take those standards of what I believe is or is not the right choice and apply those to other people against their will, it only creates more suffering. It's like abortion. If you try to stop it, make people feel like they can't seek it out or access it safely, you don't actually prevent abortions. People who are desperate enough will still seek it out. It just forces them to do so underground, under more dangerous circumstances, and at a much greater risk of suffering and death. This is why, despite being wholly anti-suicide in mentality, I fully support the existence of this website. People need a place where they can go to be able to have these conversations, without people who feel the same way I do telling them that they can't or shouldn't consider it or questioning the validity of their reasons. If I'm being honest, a part of me is concerned that even just sharing my values in the way that I have just done may serve to increase that stigma, which is something I definitely don't want to be a part of.

I may not agree with the majority of people who believe that catching the bus is their best option, but I do believe they need to be seen and heard and to have their feelings validated. And the only way to do that is to allow for people to make that choice, accept that it made sense to them, and offer whatever support is needed for them to be whole, whatever form that takes. So yeah, some sort of weird pro life pro choice hybrid I guess.
 
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Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
4,106
They often cite people like Stephen Hawking and Nick Vujic to prove, no matter what obstacles, you can and will succeed in life if you try hard enough, guaranteed.
The logical fallacy here is glaring.

Somebody succeeded at something, therefore it's impossible for anybody who makes an honest effort to be unsuccessful.
 
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SexyIncél

SexyIncél

🍭my lollipop brings the feminists to my candyshop
Aug 16, 2022
1,482
I'm going to come right out and say it: I personally believe that most of those who choose suicide are making the wrong choice.
Maybe we can take this statement of yours a tiny bit further: "We are social creatures; we need people"? Not only do we need each other, many suicide decisions aren't actually individual. They're forms of societal murder. The individual desperately tried other solutions, begging people to implement obvious ones

We can see this clearly with wageslavery, hunger, homelessness, etc. They're not technological problems, especially in the 21st century. They're social problems. That is, they must be solved on the social level. And doing so will greatly reduce our suicides

"Pro-lifer" is a funny term. They don't care about human flourishing. They don't even particularly care about giving more people the choice to work on life-extension, potentially ending death itself. They're toxic-lifers

Like the Positivity Police are all about toxic positivity, not real positivity
 
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Seven Threads

Seven Threads

Iterator
Mar 5, 2023
95
Maybe we can take this statement of yours a tiny bit further: "We are social creatures; we need people"? Not only do we need each other, many suicide decisions aren't actually individual. They're forms of societal murder. The individual desperately tried other solutions, begging people to implement obvious ones

We can see this clearly with wageslavery, hunger, homelessness, etc. They're not technological problems, especially in the 21st century. They're social problems. That is, they must be solved on the social level. And doing so will greatly reduce our suicides

"Pro-lifer" is a funny term. They don't care about human flourishing. They don't even particularly care about giving more people the choice to work on life-extension, potentially ending death itself. They're toxic-lifers

Like the Positivity Police are all about toxic positivity, not real positivity
I agree with you wholeheartedly. As a society we are abjectly failing to meet the needs of people whose lives could get better if we made any number of simple, common-sense improvements to our social system. There are so many basic changes that are desperately needed which would solve the systemic issues plaguing a great many people and driving many of those to suicidality. Like I said, we need to 'put out the fire'. And we're not doing that, opting instead to blame the people forced to leap from the building.

But I digress, I feel like this is getting a little off topic, and I feel like it's kinda maybe my fault. Pro lifers, right? Anyone else feel like chiming in?
 
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HopelessSoul

trapped in an endless hell loop
Jan 23, 2023
38
I think they should change the term "pro-lifer" to "pro-mylifer" because they don't like life itself, they like THEIR life, if they were actually "pro-life" they would have to admit being happy on
any life and under any circumstance, otherwise they are not "pro-lifers" they are just hypocrites.
 
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nonialabaster

nonialabaster

Experienced
Jan 4, 2023
263
The human is, by and large, afraid of death. We're wired to survive, which is curious in and of itself. I mean, the insidiousness of programming your creation to survive... yet death is inevitable. That almost seems like a sick joke from the cosmos. However, 'hope' is a coping mechanism. It's meant to give life purpose. Sometimes, hope can be well founded. Oftentimes, it's pathological. Humans will point to the 2 or 3 success stories out of the tens of thousands of failed and unsuccessful cases of human ventures and say, "See, ANYONE can succeed. You just have to TRY!!!" It's like seeing someone from your hometown win the lottery. "If that guy can, then I can... it's been done!!!" Never mind the numerous obstacles from how humans have decided to organize themselves, "IT'S POSSIBLE, DAMMIT!!!"
When my husband was dying, at home, before he lost the ability to speak, he said to me, "I'm so scared!" Hospice wasn't here yet, and he was discharged from the hospital with a boatload of heart drugs, but no social worker to set up hospice. I reassured him, "You are exactly where you are supposed to be, Honey."

I had to take him back to the hospital two days before he died because of severe constipation, due to opiates he wasn't used to. I'd tried to help him with suppositories and Miralax. Didn't work, so I called 911. When they got here, I explained his situation. Terminal brain cancer, starting in his kidneys. They jumped into action, taking him to the hospital where he'd been diagnosed. I followed the ambulance to ER.

When I got to him, he was writhing in pain, so much that he couldn't be still for the CT scan. The ER doctor told me about "options" to treat his brain tumors (he had more than 20, at that time), in addition to mets on both kidneys, adrenal glands, both lungs and his liver. I threw myself over him, demanded a social worker come right now! She showed up, I demanded she find hospice that our insurance would cover. I said, "Will you help us or will you not?" Hospice was there within 45 minutes.

All the while, Mark kept saying, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry." Once he was home, we had the luxury of a day and a half of having good talks, before he hit that cancer wall. I think he was assessing his life, up until that point. When the Morphine finally knocked him out, he had a slight smile on his face. Hospice doesn't mess around, when it comes to Morphine. He died listening to Leonard Cohen. He was breathing gently, with a soft exhale, but no grimacing or any signs of pain.

Sorry if that's TMI, but as much as I miss him (every goddamn minute!), I was able to talk him down from that terror he felt in his last hours.

I still feel his energy here. I sleep with his urn, most nights. I'll have them next to me, when I cross the bridge with SN. I hope to find him again.
 
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Seven Threads

Seven Threads

Iterator
Mar 5, 2023
95
When my husband was dying, at home, before he lost the ability to speak, he said to me, "I'm so scared!" Hospice wasn't here yet, and he was discharged from the hospital with a boatload of heart drugs, but no social worker to set up hospice. I reassured him, "You are exactly where you are supposed to be, Honey."

I had to take him back to the hospital two days before he died because of severe constipation, due to opiates he wasn't used to. I'd tried to help him with suppositories and Miralax. Didn't work, so I called 911. When they got here, I explained his situation. Terminal brain cancer, starting in his kidneys. They jumped into action, taking him to the hospital where he'd been diagnosed. I followed the ambulance to ER.

When I got to him, he was writhing in pain, so much that he couldn't be still for the CT scan. The ER doctor told me about "options" to treat his brain tumors (he had more than 20, at that time), in addition to mets on both kidneys, adrenal glands, both lungs and his liver. I threw myself over him, demanded a social worker come right now! She showed up, I demanded she find hospice that our insurance would cover. I said, "Will you help us or will you not?" Hospice was there within 45 minutes.

All the while, Mark kept saying, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry." Once he was home, we had the luxury of a day and a half of having good talks, before he hit that cancer wall. I think he was assessing his life, up until that point. When the Morphine finally knocked him out, he had a slight smile on his face. Hospice doesn't mess around, when it comes to Morphine. He died listening to Leonard Cohen. He was breathing gently, with a soft exhale, but no grimacing or any signs of pain.

Sorry if that's TMI, but as much as I miss him (every goddamn minute!), I was able to talk him down from that terror he felt in his last hours.

I still feel his energy here. I sleep with his urn, most nights. I'll have them next to me, when I cross the bridge with SN. I hope to find him again.
I am so sorry for what you both went through before you were able to get his suffering under control. He was very lucky to have you. I work in nursing, so I see a lot of people go through things like this alone. I'm glad he didn't have to.
 
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nonialabaster

nonialabaster

Experienced
Jan 4, 2023
263
I am so sorry for what you both went through before you were able to get his suffering under control. He was very lucky to have you. I work in nursing, so I see a lot of people go through things like this alone. I'm glad he didn't have to.
Thirteen days from diagnosis to death. We hadn't even processed the fact that Mark had ALL the cancers. I had no friends or family close by to assist me, in the early stages of my grief. My dad was undergoing a triple-bypass surgery the day before Mark died. My daughter was going through rehab and living in a sober house.

I was utterly alone. I had some people calling me every day, but no physical contact with anybody.
I thought I was tough and could do it, because I had no choice. I spent the next couple of weeks drinking cheap beer, listening to Townes Van Zandt and wailing. I even drank an entire bottle of Mark's liquid Morphine and took some crushed-up Methadone that hospice left behind. Didn't do anything except make me sleepy for a day
or so. I guess I have a crazy fast metabolism :)). I am a tiny person, soaking wet, I weigh about 105 lbs.
 
progeria

progeria

Member
Jul 18, 2021
44
This legit one of my family members. always says they have had it worse than me and tell me I'm a coward daily when I'm feeling low.
They simply do not know how to be real parents, so they shift all the blame to you
 
unplug

unplug

Vapor Self
Apr 11, 2023
107
It's hard wired into us to live, it's in our very nature to go on and reproduce. Some find a way to change that and free themselves.
 
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leavingsoon99

I'm at peace... Finally.
Mar 16, 2023
722
It's hard wired into us to live, it's in our very nature to go on and reproduce. Some find a way to change that and free themselves.
And there's IMMENSE power in changing that hardwired instinct.
 

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