Pro-life?

[TAW122]

I'd go with the term pro-choice (people who respect others' right to self-determination, aka decision to decide whether to continue living or CTB) and anti-choice (people who don't respect others' right to decide whether one wishes to live or die, and instead force them to live regardless of the circumstances).

I will say I agree with your last part, about having restrictions and checks in place in order to prevent impulsive decision and/or abuse by others who do it for selfish reasons (either to collect inheritance, property, getting rid of someone who doesn't want to go, coercion, etc.). Of course, with people who are terminally ill and/or suffering immensely with no (reasonable) chance of recovery, then yes those would be the exceptions and would be dealt with by a case-by-case basis.

 

[Sensei]

I'd go with the term pro-choice (people who respect others' right to self-determination, aka decision to decide whether to continue living or CTB) and anti-choice (people who don't respect others' right to decide whether one wishes to live or die, and instead force them to live regardless of the circumstances).

Well put. I must say that you approach the concept from en interesting angle: to be anti-choice is to force someone to live even when the pain is overwhelming and the odds are hopeless.

I will say I agree with your last part, about having restrictions and checks in place in order to prevent impulsive decision and/or abuse by others who do it for selfish reasons (either to collect inheritance, property, getting rid of someone who doesn't want to go, coercion, etc.). Of course, with people who are terminally ill and/or suffering immensely with no (reasonable) chance of recovery, then yes those would be the exceptions and would be dealt with by a case-by-case basis.

I'm probably naive, because I haven't even thought of the possibility of abusing suicide. I agree with you that it's more than resoneable to question an individual who exercises their right to die by their own hand under such circumstances.

I think the right to die is like any other right. If it's not used wisely it will be questioned and restricted. As an analogy, if people literally started using abortions like a contraceptive, the public would probably call for restrictions or even a ban.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

I think it's good that you are discussing nuances as they potentially apply to specific circumstances. IMO any viewpoint that doesn't do this is naive.

 

[Sensei]

I think it's good that you are discussing nuances as they potentially apply to specific circumstances. IMO any viewpoint that doesn't do this is naive.

Just as with almost all other things, it's tempting to try to find general rules, but there will always be exceptions. We're after all talking about individuals with different experiences, life circumstances, feelings, beliefs, and whatnot.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

I use generalisations all the time. I just assume that it's a given that people understand that generalisations are inherently flawed because they cannot apply to individuals and thus ignore reality. Unfortunately, I often fail to realise that sometimes people don't seem to understand this.

 

[Sensei]

The problem is perhaps that some generalizations are socially accepted and some aren't. For instance, you can actually generalize about half the population of the world and get away with it as long as you do it the right way: "Men don't listen."

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I'm feeling some cognitive dissonance about people having the right to die and using it wisely. It's not sitting right with me.

A right is not a privilege. One does not have to justify or defend exercising their right, because it is a right. One doesn't have to have their right to die license renewed every few years after proving they're still capable of making a wise decision about it.

Everyone is the owner of their own life. I don't understand why they should have to justify ending it at all.

If someone else thinks it's foolish, so what? They get one life, they can fuck it up as much as they want. How many times do people shrug and say, "It's their life." In the case of suicide, it is literally their life. If they make a dumbass decision, it's their life to make dumbass decisions about. Yes, I know, it's the one irreversible decision. If it was geniunely the dumbest possible dumb decision, they're out of the gene pool. Is anyone truly that dumb? Survival instinct is strong even with people who have intellectual disabilities. If it's caused by a mental illness, I don't know what to say. I think that's a can of worms. I think if we start picking out when it's okay to suicide and when it's not, and making someone justify the choice based on fitness to decide for themselves, then it's not a right, it's a privilege.

If someone wants to kill themselves, they have a reason, and only they get to determine if that reason is "good enough." If they don't have the capacity to make that choice, then who is going to step up and be responsible for their entire life, to make sure they are comfortable and all their needs are met and feed them and wipe their butts? If someone is going to "save" them and force them to live, then they need to take total responsbility for them.

Finally, little kids kill themselves. It's not because they're irresponsible, it's because something is seriously fucked up and they feel a strong enough desire to escape that they want to end their lives.

I just don't think it has to be justified for anyone to take their own life. It's the only thing they truly own. Imo, anything else is a form of slavery. It's the unjustifiable ownership of another's life.

 

[Living sucks]

I'm feeling some cognitive dissonance about people having the right to die and using it wisely. It's not sitting right with me.

A right is not a privilege. One does not have to justify or defend exercising their right, because it is a right. One doesn't have to have their right to die license renewed every few years after proving they're still capable of making a wise decision about it.

Everyone is the owner of their own life. I don't understand why they should have to justify ending it at all.

If someone else thinks it's foolish, so what? They get one life, they can fuck it up as much as they want. How many times do people shrug and say, "It's their life." In the case of suicide, it is literally their life. If they make a dumbass decision, it's their life to make dumbass decisions about. Yes, I know, it's the one irreversible decision. If it was geniunely the dumbest possible dumb decision, they're out of the gene pool. Is anyone truly that dumb? Survival instinct is strong even with people who have intellectual disabilities. If it's caused by a mental illness, I don't know what to say. I think that's a can of worms. I think if we start picking out when it's okay to suicide and when it's not, and making someone justify the choice based on fitness to decide for themselves, then it's not a right, it's a privilege.

If someone wants to kill themselves, they have a reason, and only they get to determine if that reason is "good enough." If they don't have the capacity to make that choice, then who is going to step up and be responsible for their entire life, to make sure they are comfortable and all their needs are met and feed them and wipe their butts? If someone is going to "save" them and force them to live, then they need to take total responsbility for them.

Finally, little kids kill themselves. It's not because they're irresponsible, it's because something is seriously fucked up and they feel a strong enough desire to escape that they want to end their lives.

I just don't think it has to be justified for anyone to take their own life. It's the only thing they truly own. Imo, anything else is a form of slavery. It's the unjustifiable ownership of another's life.

My question is this.

Do you believe anyone should be able to walk into a clinic and say, ok I'm ready to die and be assisted in that death by whatever peaceful method they may offer, like N, DDMP2, exit bag.. customers choice? And either administering the help or selling them the items without question or any opportunity to offer MH services or waiting period etc? No matter the reason or age? No history or medical screening?

EDIT.., Unrelated to the question
I know someone who lost his father in a car crash, got addicted to drugs, felt like an outcast because of his looks (red hair and glasses) and decided to step in front of a snow plow during a family holiday gathering .. 16 years old. I know for a fact that once he matured, he was going to be very handsome and he had a good family.. dis functional but loving. I know that's not the only reasons to live.
It was his choice but not all resources were exhausted bcuz he was too young and impressionable. We were the same age and if i knew he was feeling suicidal, I would have tried to help him. He needed help dealing with his fathers death .. before that he was a pretty happy smart kid.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

My question is this.

Do you believe anyone should be able to walk into a clinic and say, ok I'm ready to die and be assisted in that death by whatever peaceful method they may offer, like N, DDMP2, exit bag.. customers choice? And either administering the help or selling them the items without question or any opportunity to offer MH services or waiting period etc? No matter the reason or age? No history or medical screening?

That is up to the provider of the service. If someone wants that service, then they'll have to follow the terms set by the provider, or find other means to exercise their right to end their own life.

 

[Living sucks]

I'm feeling some cognitive dissonance about people having the right to die and using it wisely. It's not sitting right with me.

I just don't think it has to be justified for anyone to take their own life. It's the only thing they truly own. Imo, anything else is a form of slavery. It's the unjustifiable ownership of another's life.

Firstly, anyone can take their life at anytime .. hanging, jumping, suffocation, drugs, etc. as long as they are successful, there are no consequences for that person because they are gone.
if they fail, are you saying that that person should not be subject to any type of mental health evaluation or intervention?


So the debate is getting access to ctb methods that are possibly more humane and peaceful. So someone has to be able to sell those products or provide that service.

That is up to the provider of the service. If someone wants that service, then they'll have to follow the terms set by the provider, or find other means to exercise their right to end their own life.

That didn't answer the question.

what provider and how? That's the question. And according to your post, I read it to insinuate that anyone should have access to any methods at anytime without being questioned or offered help?

The issue was right to die and using it wisely. Ie assisted suicide ? No regulations at all?
Should it just be accessible like buying a rope?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

@Living sucks, I did answer your question. You were trying to trip me up. I stuck with the scenario you presented.

I never said assisted suicide. Right to die includes not getting put in a psych ward for attempting. I mean the literal right to die. If others meant assisted suicide when I jumped into the discussion, I overlooked that.

Offering help is fine, and either accepting it or turning it down is fine. Making one explain and justify their decision is not. If they have to justify it, then it's not a right.

I have the right to live, do I have to justify it? It is that simple:

Right to live without explaining or justifying, right to die without explaining or justifying.

All else is value judgment, and denial or permission based on that. That's not a right, it's a privilege. Someone has power over that privilege, whether approving or denying it; someone who has proven they are not reliably on the side of every person they supposedly serve: mental health services and governments.


EDIT: About the red-headed boy. If his pain was as excruciating to him then as yours is to you now, is still not okay? You saw potential for him, but how can you know the potential would have come to fruition? His ended his pain. He ended his suffering.

 

[Living sucks]

@GoodPersonEffed not trying to trip you up just looking for clarity . The answer was specific to the rights but not to what means and an opposition to it being used wisely. (Which i interpret as meaning some sort of regulation, which can only be applied to assisted suicide or failed attempts or threats of suicide) otherwise any person is of free will to end their life at any given moment .. so when I hear or read right to die, I think assisted suicide or access to methods which have been made difficult to obtain due to ease of death like N.

in essence, a persons right to die is only compromised when they fail an attempt, or announce it. (Get caught) At that point it is imo irresponsible for bystanders to not try to help. (The type of help is the fucking true problem here and another debate completely)

I do believe that if after a certain time of help is given, that person still wishes to die, they should not be continued to be forced to live by being kept in a ward or supervised home.

I agree with much of your rationale, but I disagree that everyone has the ability to make proper choices for themselves at all times. And ending life is an irreversible choice. (Ie, child, someone on drugs, highly emotional situation)

I was trying to get a clearer picture of what the scenario "looked" like to you if applied in practice.

EDIT About the red headed boy.. i knew him before the death.. we grew up together. His dad was his idol. He was shattered by his dads death. Its not for me to say it was ok or not ok, i said it was his choice but I know he hid his pain and numbed with drugs and that he was not getting help to deal with his pain or the death. I've said that someone must really be in hell to end their life... I don't doubt he was. IMO his age, unattended grief and his drug use altered his ability and led to an impulsive decision that day. I can't say if it was right or wrong.. I wasn't in his body as no one is in mine. We will never know his potential bcuz he left. He utilized his right to die with no mistake first try.

 

[Sensei]

I'm feeling some cognitive dissonance about people having the right to die and using it wisely. It's not sitting right with me.

A right is not a privilege. One does not have to justify or defend exercising their right, because it is a right. One doesn't have to have their right to die license renewed every few years after proving they're still capable of making a wise decision about it.

Everyone is the owner of their own life. I don't understand why they should have to justify ending it at all.

If someone else thinks it's foolish, so what? They get one life, they can fuck it up as much as they want. How many times do people shrug and say, "It's their life." In the case of suicide, it is literally their life. If they make a dumbass decision, it's their life to make dumbass decisions about. Yes, I know, it's the one irreversible decision. If it was geniunely the dumbest possible dumb decision, they're out of the gene pool. Is anyone truly that dumb? Survival instinct is strong even with people who have intellectual disabilities. If it's caused by a mental illness, I don't know what to say. I think that's a can of worms. I think if we start picking out when it's okay to suicide and when it's not, and making someone justify the choice based on fitness to decide for themselves, then it's not a right, it's a privilege.

If someone wants to kill themselves, they have a reason, and only they get to determine if that reason is "good enough." If they don't have the capacity to make that choice, then who is going to step up and be responsible for their entire life, to make sure they are comfortable and all their needs are met and feed them and wipe their butts? If someone is going to "save" them and force them to live, then they need to take total responsbility for them.

Finally, little kids kill themselves. It's not because they're irresponsible, it's because something is seriously fucked up and they feel a strong enough desire to escape that they want to end their lives.

I just don't think it has to be justified for anyone to take their own life. It's the only thing they truly own. Imo, anything else is a form of slavery. It's the unjustifiable ownership of another's life.

Principally, I agree with you to 100 %, but not necessarily in practice. As I see it, it's not about justifying that you want to exercise your right to die, but about doing it wisely and making the right decision. As an analogy, just because you have the right to exercise your freedom of speech doesn't mean that it's always the best course of action. No one can stop you from doing so, but they can advise you not to do it, and then it's up to you to decide what to do.

I also think that @Living sucks presents some very strong arguments, but they argue better and put it better than I do, so I don't want to jump into that discussion.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

No one can stop you from doing so, but they can advise you not to do it, and then it's up to you to decide what to do.

This. It would put into practice my assertion, and is in agreement with what I'd also agreed about from @Living sucks, with the same caveat -- that it's okay to offer help, in this case in the form of advice, but then it's up to them.


I anticipate that someone may say to themselves or comment, "But this is a permanent decision, it's the end of one's life. It's not the same as free speech."

Words can be so inflammatory, if one is not wise or think carefully about their words, someone may kill them over them. Bar fights start in verbal disputes and end up on the slab, while MLK risked his life the first time he spoke aloud his intention to seek equal civil rights. There's a Southern joke: What's the redneck mating call? "Hey y'all, watch this!" That sentence can end in death.

No one is the master of another's moral character, only our own. In the same token, we're not masters of the decisions others make. One can tell a child a million times not to do something, but unless they are physically held back and watched 24/7, if they want to do it, they will. Fork in the electric socket? Injury or death. Walking into the street from between parked cars? Injury or death (I also have an anecdote: I personally knew a kid who did so and was in traction for many months). Children and adults have always had the potential to die from unwise, thoughtless actions, and countless have. Life is that fragile, and then it's over, and with it, all their potential.

Such is life. It's all one big tragedy. If I think about it, really, isn't almost all potential for an individual human never met? And isn't that one of the main reasons for finding suicide a tragedy? One can only do so many things and follow so many interests in one life, there are always constraints, whether of time or of circumstance that is chosen or forced. One decision, whether wise or unwise, and at least some potential, up to all, is no more.

How often does someone say, "You're shooting yourself in your own foot" or "Give them enough rope to hang themselves"? Consequences can indeed be that dire for unwise actions. And we can't stop people from being unwise, or doing what they want to do even if they know it's unwise.

 

[Sensei]

Such is life. It's all one big tragedy. If I think about it, really, isn't almost all potential for an individual human never met? And isn't that one of the main reasons for finding suicide a tragedy? One can only do so many things and follow so many interests in one life, there are always constraints, whether of time or of circumstance that is chosen or forced. One decision, whether wise or unwise, and at least some potential, up to all, is no more.

I very much share the sentiment that the full potenial for an individual never is, nor can be, met. Not only do I think that this applies to every inividual, but to everything. It's a thought that is easier to accept for me now after I've come to the conclusion that existence, in any form, is meaningless. We're just matter turned into thougth and feeling and instinct for an astronomical nanosecond. Yet, I sometimes find myself in my chamber at night brooding over what could have been...

From my point of view, the tragedy of suicide is that it's the end of experiences. Existence may be meaningless, but there are still wonders to be seen. Of course, an individiual's pain may become too high a price to pay for seeing these wonders at some point, and then suicide may be the lesser tragedy.

 

[Luchs]

Maybe anti-choice is a better term for people who deny others rights

I think that giving both sides of the argument labels with positive connotations is good, since it works against demonisation of one side or the other.

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

Excellent points here. There are also the traditional "pro-lifers" of which the term originated from- those oppose abortion and think that even in the worst possible conditions, someone should be forced into the world. A lot of these people are anti-choice when it comes to suicide as well.

I don't consider them pro-life, moreso pro-birth or pro-existence, because they simply want more humans to exist without sparing a thought towards the future wellbeing and potential suffering of those humans.

They are not really privy to the fact that for some people, life is pure suffering with an absence of good or meaningful experiences.

It is a mantra of, "Life is good always" rather than a more nuanced view that takes into account that some people will enjoy life, and some people won't.

 

[BitterlyAlive_]

Surprised I'm just now seeing this. I think people just throw the term around a bit...carelessly. It's okay to point out other options, because suicidality creates tunnel vision and can often seem like the only thing left. It's okay to encourage recovery. And I think it's okay to encourage young people or parents to think a bit more, if anything because it seems like many people attempt on impulse. I wouldn't want them to feel as though they made a mistake, should they survive. Especially when there's kids involved. That being said, of course, it's ultimately up to them and I respect their decision/autonomy.

Suicide is not a decision to be made lightly. You cannot take it back. It's not something to romanticize, either...and I also want to note that it seems like revenge suicides generally do not have that intended impact.

 

[foxdie]

I try not to use the term "pro-life" anymore in regards to suicide. I prefer anti-choice personally. I feel pro-life gives them too much credit imo. I don't use it in regards to abortion for similar reasons. I also believe everyone is pro-life in the sense that you'd want everyone to be able to lead happy and healthy lives if that were possible. The term has inherent positive connotations, while I have negative views of people who hold these beliefs, so I try not to use it.

And I definitely agree that it's okay to discuss other options with people while maintaining respect for their option of suicide. People definitely aren't always thinking clearly, I know that's true for me.

As for the question of age, it genuinely breaks my heart to see young people or children being suicidal. However I feel that children as a class of people have their rights limited in a lot of ways. There are obviously very good reasons for this but I feel society still has a lot of work to do when it comes to respecting younger people or children's autonomy (everyone else too, now that I think on it). With suicide, I personally would do everything I could to stop a child from killing themselves. This probably makes me a hypocrite but there are just certain things I could never abide.

I also feel that demonizing people who are anti-choice and calling them pro-life while doing so is not a good look for us. To an outside observer it does tend to make us look a bit death cult-y imo. Pro-life to me sounds inherently positive and to attack others using that term looks a bit sinister to the uninformed. But these are just my views and I think some of them are a bit contradictory, so as always, take it with a grain of salt.

 

[wordsonscreen]

I try not to use the term "pro-life" anymore in regards to suicide. I prefer anti-choice personally. I feel pro-life gives them too much credit imo. I don't use it in regards to abortion for similar reasons. I also believe everyone is pro-life in the sense that you'd want everyone to be able to lead happy and healthy lives if that were possible. The term has inherent positive connotations, while I have negative views of people who hold these beliefs, so I try not to use it.

Oh this is so good! I have always felt uneasy about pro life.... and you not only put my discomfort into words but also offered an alternative! Love this!

I also believe everyone is pro-life in the sense that you'd want everyone to be able to lead happy and healthy lives if that were possible.
and this is not the case most of the time for people against abortion or suicide.

I also feel that demonizing people who are anti-choice and calling them pro-life while doing so is not a good look for us. To an outside observer it does tend to make us look a bit death cult-y imo.

lol true

Pro-life to me sounds inherently positive and to attack others using that term looks a bit sinister to the uninformed. But these are just my views and I think some of them are a bit contradictory, so as always, take it with a grain of salt.

I feel this

 

[Bat 17]

This is a very well written OP by @Sensei I have dredged it up from the memory hole because I have been wrestling with the meaning of "pro-life", especially after yesterday when someone CTB in chat. I've never experienced that before as I always consciously avoid the goodbye threads (although I might think differently if it was someone I know, although I'd probably want them to reconsider).

Yesterday's CTB affected me. I didn't know her although we exchanged some private messages in her last minutes. She sent me some photos from her life. She seemed like such a lovely person. I tried to make her delay to give time to talk things through, but failed (so did others). She had loving messages from the members in chat and died I hope feeling supported and cared for. Some moron made asinine comments laughing at her death shortly afterwards and was quickly banned. That's important as so many from the pro-life brigade say that sort of behaviour is actually encouraged on SS - well, it isn't. Thank you to our brilliant mods.

I think its an absolute tragedy that she wished to curtail her life. I understand that she had lived with so much abuse for so long. I remember what the final moments of CTB (in my case a failed attempt) are like. I wish I could have known her and maybe helped.

I've been on the receiving end of information gathering and dox attempts from pro-life. I am not one of them. But I care very deeply about the people on this forum who have all too often been abused, let down, misjudged, bullied and brought down by illnesses, mental and physical. Then treated like lepers because they can't take it any more and want a dignified exit.

I will stop now as I'm feeling a bit upset. Sorry that this is rambling. I want to be here for you. If you find me annoying, you can always put me on ignore!