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mayHeCurseUsAll

Member
Nov 23, 2019
41
I was thinking about the following analogy recently and wonder what fellow SS members think about it.

It seems like the most common argument supporting the pro life position against suicide is that one should strive to maximise the happiness or well being of the individuals affected by the act, and therefore it should not be considered acceptable because ultimately it may cause more suffering for all parties affected.

Utilitarianism is one of the first things taught to students taking an introductory philosophy class for the first time, and I think it's well known at this point that this is not a sound moral philosophy (and not even necessarily the closest to sound), a simple way to illustrate this I thought about was a thought experiment involving slavery.

It's likely that most people who are pro life are also anti slavery. But it is conceivable that slavery is justifiable operating under a utilitarian ethics system given we cherry pick some parameters, e.g. make it so that the average number of family members of each household employing slaves vastly out numbers the average number of employed slaves per household, so that in the absence of slavery although the overall well being of the slaves would increase, this increase in well being would not be greater than the overall decrease in well being of all family members of households employing slaves (even though it is from an emotional standpoint clear that on average the decrease in well being for a single family member would be vastly less than the increase for an average slave, the sheer number of family members per household can make this so).

Realistically this is not evidence that utilitarianism is a poor choice of moral philosophy, but it is proof that the argument made from its position is a poor one in the case of suicide, because we are in a very similar situation to the one I painted earlier excusing or allowing slavery, viewing each suicidal person as a slave and the household they serve as the set of people they could emotionally affect by committing suicide, it seems the only way the utilitarian position could go through is if the average number of affected vastly outnumbers the average number of suicidal people, which it well may, however this means by the exact same argument, in my absurd slavery scenario, pro lifers will need to admit slavery is justified or at least acceptable.
 
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settheory

settheory

Bundle of perceptions
Jul 29, 2021
457
It seems like the most common argument supporting the pro life position against suicide is that one should strive to maximise the happiness or well being of the individuals affected by the act, and therefore it should not be considered acceptable because ultimately it may cause more suffering for all parties affected.
No, seems like by far not the most common one. Self-described utilitarians are usually pro-choice.
That slavery problem is a very common objection. This was formulated somewhere as the "speck of dust" problem, where one could torture a person in exchange of a speck of dust not falling into eyes of an absurdly large amount of people. Utilitarianism can be modified to disallow even those unrealistic cases. We can allow some states have an infinite amount of disutility compared to others. This might seem like an arbirtrary addition, but it can be compared to something possible in real life, something like a thing a person would not sell for any amount of money, but might exchange for a number of equivalent things. This does not violate the definition of utilitarianism. It might be reasonable to suggest that a person's suffering in slavery is literally infinite compared to the benefit each individual master reaps from the slave.
There are some other varieties and systems similar to utilitarianism which would not allow that scenario - negative utilitarianism and prioritarianism, to name a few.
Many things similar to the objections to utilitarianism are already still happening in real life. Industrial animal agriculture, for example, but it is not even allowed by utilitarianism.
 
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mayHeCurseUsAll

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Nov 23, 2019
41
No, seems like by far not the most common one. Self-described utilitarians are usually pro-choice.
That slavery problem is a very common objection. This was formulated somewhere as the "speck of dust" problem, where one could torture a person in exchange of a speck of dust not falling into eyes of an absurdly large amount of people. Utilitarianism can be modified to disallow even those unrealistic cases. We can allow some states have an infinite amount of disutility compared to others. This might seem like an arbirtrary addition, but it can be compared to something possible in real life, something like a thing a person would not sell for any amount of money, but might exchange for a number of equivalent things. This does not violate the definition of utilitarianism. It might be reasonable to suggest that a person's suffering in slavery is literally infinite compared to the benefit each individual master reaps from the slave.
There are some other varieties and systems similar to utilitarianism which would not allow that scenario - negative utilitarianism and prioritarianism, to name a few.
Many things similar to the objections to utilitarianism are already still happening in real life. Industrial animal agriculture, for example, but it is not even allowed by utilitarianism.
Oh thanks for the informative reply, I didn't know most self proclaimed utilitarianists are usually pro choice, I do see that one could assign arbtirarily high levels of suffering to things like being a slave which would make it so that one could still disallow slavery from a utilitarian viewpoint, but if you can assume the level of suffering a human being can experience (assuming perhaps naively suffering is a one dimensional measurable quantity, which it certainly does not seem to be ) is bounded, then as long as there can be arbitrarily many people who would suffer at the cost of slavery being disallowed, slavery would be justifiable given an appropriately large choice for the number of slave owning household members.
 
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settheory

settheory

Bundle of perceptions
Jul 29, 2021
457
Oh thanks for the informative reply, I didn't know most self proclaimed utilitarianists are usually pro choice, I do see that one could assign arbtirarily high levels of suffering to things like being a slave which would make it so that one could still disallow slavery from a utilitarian viewpoint, but if you can assume the level of suffering a human being can experience (assuming perhaps naively suffering is a one dimensional measurable quantity, which it certainly does not seem to be ) is bounded, then as long as there can be arbitrarily many people who would suffer at the cost of slavery being disallowed, slavery would be justifiable given an appropriately large choice for the number of slave owning household members.
Mathematically speaking, moral preference of choices is either a partial or a total order. If i for every two choices A and B i can make at the moment either A is better than B, B is worse, or A and B are equal and morally indifferent. In this regard, it makes it a linear quantity. Partial order arises when there is a confusion at a fundamental level about which choice is better, which means that the moral system is incomplete.
Not sure how measurable they are, but there are some economical methods to measure utility. Prices, the more real life circumstances are close to real life are close to ideal market, the more they reflect utility (somewhat). Revealed preference also works. There's also a thing called Hay voting. And some other methods. I think there might be methods of measuring even interpersonal utility using some empirical methods. There can be a whole science dedicated to measurement of utility.
There are many aspects to suffering, that's for sure, but the line of moral preference of choices, by definition of preference, is linear. There are many dimensions to suffering, but the one dimension of suffering that is particularly relevant to preference of choices based on suffering is literally, obviously, the dimension of preference of choices.

You seem to misunderstand what i meant by infinity. I said literally infinite, not arbitrarily big finite amount of suffering. In surreal number field, infinities are different. They can be summed up like real numbers to produce different infinite quantities.
Again, this can be explained by an intuitive real life FINITE thing. One thing i have might be not worth any finite amount of money or things of certain type, but it is worth for me some two other things.

I am not in the moo or time to argue about this stuff today. I might respond several days after this. If you want to know more about utilitarianism and similar things, check these things:
edit:
just to name a few

I am not exactly a utilitarian myself, but i do like some of the essential principles of utilitarianism.
 
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mayHeCurseUsAll

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Nov 23, 2019
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Mathematically speaking, moral preference of choices is either a partial or a total order. If i for every two choices A and B i can make at the moment either A is better than B, B is worse, or A and B are equal and morally indifferent. In this regard, it makes it a linear quantity. Partial order arises when there is a confusion at a fundamental level about which choice is better, which means that the moral system is incomplete.
Not sure how measurable they are, but there are some economical methods to measure utility. Prices, the more real life circumstances are close to real life are close to ideal market, the more they reflect utility (somewhat). Revealed preference also works. There's also a thing called Hay voting. And some other methods. I think there might be methods of measuring even interpersonal utility using some empirical methods. There can be a whole science dedicated to measurement of utility.
There are many aspects to suffering, that's for sure, but the line of moral preference of choices, by definition of preference, is linear. There are many dimensions to suffering, but the one dimension of suffering that is particularly relevant to preference of choices based on suffering is literally, obviously, the dimension of preference of choices.

You seem to misunderstand what i meant by infinity. I said literally infinite, not arbitrarily big finite amount of suffering. In surreal number field, infinities are different. They can be summed up like real numbers to produce different infinite quantities.
Again, this can be explained by an intuitive real life FINITE thing. One thing i have might be not worth any finite amount of money or things of certain type, but it is worth for me some two other things.

I am not in the moo or time to argue about this stuff today. I might respond several days after this. If you want to know more about utilitarianism and similar things, check these things:
just to name a few

I am not exactly a utilitarian myself, but i do like some of the essential principles of utilitarianism.
thanks for the reply. sorry if I came off as argumentative, just trying to have a discussion. I think I know what you mean by literal infinity, I actually specifically said assuming human suffering is a bounded , NOT finite quantity for that reason in my last paragraph.

I'm likely misunderstanding your point entirely so I apologize in advance for that, I'm partly on this site because I'm supposedly a graduate student in pure mathematics but I'm hopelessly mediocre lol. Sorry again if my tone came across as harsh and I'll try to decipher your posts when I'm a little more lucid.

Best wishes!
 
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