Discussion Poll: are you an antinatalist?

[stacks]

Why? Why not? If you're an eugenicist, which genetic traits make a human/sentient being worthy of reproduction? Do you consider yourself worthy of reproduction? Is the current net value of (sentient) life on earth negative? Would it be positive if people could freely choose their own genetic traits or their offspring's (through gene editing)? If you knew with certainty that the risk of creating an unsatisfied/suffering sentient being could never be eradicated completely, would you still be an eugenicist?

Discuss.

 

[worldexploder]

Of course. I think it's unethical due to all the suffering and uncertainty that comes with life. It's a negative imposition. I don't think I'll get anywhere with my arguments by telling individuals not to have children. I'd rather take an educational approach.

I do however feel obligated to declare that we cannot have natalism without the right to die for any adult who wants it and call it a fair system. Can't have one without the other unless you want lopsided justice.

 

[Trashcan]

Yes. Life is suffering. There's no way around that.

 

[worldexploder]

Yes. Life is suffering. There's no way around that.

Exactly. There is no need to create more need. Since altruistic natalism doesn't exist, I can't call it anything other than a selfish act on behalf of the parents.

 

[Trashcan]

Exactly. There is no need to create more need. Since altruistic natalism doesn't exist, I can't call it anything other than a selfish act on behalf of the parents.

There really isn't. It's funny how those people will say child free people are selfish, but when you ask them why they wanted kids, they say things like, "I thought it would be fun!" Or they ask, "who will take care of you when you're older?" If you have kids so someone can take care of when you're old, you're a POS.

 

[worldexploder]

I think a major step in the right to die movement would be to get pro-choice people on our side by helping them recognize that their "My body my choice" stance should cover everyone. Just not pregnant women. The arguments used in the Row v. Wade decision can be a strength to our cause.

 

[millefeui]

I think the world could get significantly better if they controlled birth rates to the point the population was reduce to 3 billion at most. Does that make me an antinatalist?

 

[worldexploder]

There really isn't. It's funny how those people will say child free people are selfish, but when you ask them why they wanted kids, they say things like, "I thought it would be fun!" Or they ask, "who will take care of you when you're older?" If you have kids so someone can take care of when you're old, you're a POS.

You're totally on point! If these people truly want to be selfless, then they should adopt. Their are over 500,000 children in America and millions around the globe who are jammed in foster care in need of "forever homes". Their needs are mostly ignored because realistically, children make up one of the least cared about demographics in the world.

 

[skitliv]

Of course, philosophically its what makes most sense to me as some of you have already stated perfectly

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

I never understood the point of having children. Yes, some people enjoy themselves and have great lives but the odds are so hopelessly stacked against each and every one of us from the moment we're born. It's sort of like throwing someone out on a high tightrope and shouting "have fun!"

 

[NumbItAll]

Yes, it makes no sense that someone can be born without their consent. Even if the probability of happiness is good, it is not worth the risk of suffering.

 

[Schopenhauer]

I'm definitely not worth of reproduction. Thankfully I lack any desire to reproduce. I hate this world. If I were to have kids, then I'd be knowingly bringing them into suffering.

However, I don't consider myself a full-fledged anti-natalist. Most people do seem to enjoy their lives, so the expected utility of children born to the median parents is most likely positive.

We can't generalize from our experience and conclude that no life is worth living. However, I do agree with @millefeui regarding the unsustainable number of humans in this planet.

In my view, easy availability of safe, painless suicide methods should be paramount. People who don't belong in this world should be able to leave at their discretion.

 

[Sayo]

I agree with Schopenhauer.

It seems that the majority of people genuinely enjoy living, even though in some ways it is a form of conditioning, even if they suffer a great deal. They experience it positively compared to their perception of not living, and it's very difficult to establish the 'correct' ethical calculus for suffering vs. pleasure. And there are many ways in which the lives of the majority could be substantially improved. So, I don't feel capable of absolute antinatalism, although I am sympathetic to many of the ideas that inform it. I simply believe that the right to die is a necessary corollary of the right to live well.

The only grievances I have with my stance are that currently the things that I have laid out are ideals (before I became unable to function because of my mental illness, I was trying to help address this), that children are not well-protected, and that humans will probably go extinct (or else the population greatly reduced) before any of it changes in most countries.

 

[not-2-b-the-answer]

100% Anti natalist
I will not be reproducing. I'm not smart and I will not inflict that on another life form.
I don't want it resenting me like I resent my parents. I still love them but I wish they would not have brought me into this shitty world. :(

 

[not-2-b-the-answer]

Of course. I think it's unethical due to all the suffering and uncertainty that comes with life. It's a negative imposition. I don't think I'll get anywhere with my arguments by telling individuals not to have children. I'd rather take an educational approach.

I do however feel obligated to declare that we cannot have natalism without the right to die for any adult who wants it and call it a fair system. Can't have one without the other unless you want lopsided justice.

I live in the U.S. and I don't see the right to die ever being a right … especially now. Too many pro lifers in the way. :(
Our politicians want to repeal abortion rights but have no trouble sending them to fight in wars after they turn 18. :( FUCKING HYPOCRITES !!! :(

 

[millefeui]

The fact abortion isn't a basic right everywhere in the world is infuriating.

 

[not-2-b-the-answer]

There really isn't. It's funny how those people will say child free people are selfish, but when you ask them why they wanted kids, they say things like, "I thought it would be fun!" Or they ask, "who will take care of you when you're older?" If you have kids so someone can take care of when you're old, you're a POS.

Just having kids so you may have someone to take care of you when you get older is a shitty reason.
They may resent you … they may die (Unless you breed like rabbits).
They may stick you in a nursing home and never visit.

 

[not-2-b-the-answer]

The fact abortion isn't a basic right everywhere in the world is infuriating.

It may not be in the U.S. for long and there are states that have restrictions.

 

[not-2-b-the-answer]

I think a major step in the right to die movement would be to get pro-choice people on our side by helping them recognize that their "My body my choice" stance should cover everyone. Just not pregnant women. The arguments used in the Row v. Wade decision can be a strength to our cause.

We may not have Roe v Wade much longer. :(

 

[not-2-b-the-answer]

I never understood the point of having children. Yes, some people enjoy themselves and have great lives but the odds are so hopelessly stacked against each and every one of us from the moment we're born. It's sort of like throwing someone out on a high tightrope and shouting "have fun!"

I think I tripped and am now being strangled by it. :(

 

[CJM]

It's funny how those people will say child free people are selfish

I never understood that, theres no written rule telling you to pop out some kids, so you want to focus on other things in life, good on ya. There are enough shitty parents who don't deserve to have children anyway.

 

[worldexploder]

We may not have Roe v Wade much longer. :(

Unfortunately you may be right. With all these right wing Christian fundamentalist at the helm everything seems to be going backwards. These people do not believe in individual liberty.

 

[not-2-b-the-answer]

Unfortunately you may be right. With all these right wing Christian fundamentalist at the helm everything seems to be going backwards. These people do not believe in individual liberty.

They are all for protecting life … unless it involves taking away their precious guns.

 

[hunter_lewis]

Eugenics lead to centuries of racism and to the Nazi regime.
So I am definitely not a eugenicist.

 

[Lra888]

Disturbing the way our culture views life. It's pretty much keep people alive at any cost no matter the pain or the situation whether health problems, mental illness, injury etc.

Makes suffering seem infinite for people. And great shame to those who choose to go.

 

[Circles]

Look at this world. Look at the societies of each country. Look at what people do to each other. All this pointless suffering and the rules to conform to this sick twisted reality only leads to the same destination: death. But first and foremost you and everybody else are going to suffer big time and the only reassurance that we have is that maybe things might get better which seems unlikely. We trick ourselves into believing all this is worth the trouble even though most people will suffer long and hard for a lifetime only to have few brief moments of actually living the life they want.

 

[Lra888]

Look at this world. Look at the societies of each country. Look at what people do to each other. All this pointless suffering and the rules to conform to this sick twisted reality only leads to the same destination: death. But first and foremost you and everybody else are going to suffer big time and the only reassurance that we have is that maybe things might get better which seems unlikely. We trick ourselves into believing all this is worth the trouble even though most people will suffer long and hard for a lifetime only to have few brief moments of actually living the life they want.

I think about this a lot. When pro lifers tell people to get help and keep going at any cost, the person is still subjected to the awfulness and cruelty of society, the economic struggle, the objectification, the isolation. Humanity & society is such horror at times. Even love & relationships have an undercurrent of narcissism, financial dominance, desperation, terror of loneliness etc. Life is not pleasant for most people, and what is pleasant is often deception - like stupid entertainment, vanity, prepackaged sold leisure.

 

[Revok]

I'm kind of a mixed bag. Firstly I'm a nihilist, so every value I assign to anything is only something assigned by me, not an objective truth. Objectively speaking the Universe does not care. From my subjective point of view I think the universe would be a better place without sentient life and all the struggle and suffering it creates, but I wouldn't ever feel entitled make that decision for someone else. If I did that then I'd be no better than pro-lifers deciding that I have to live.

I believe everyone should be given access to an optional peaceful death, but it should be everyones own choice to make. I think if voluntary death was more of an accepted practice, then people in general would be less afraid of death and more open to the idea of just "going early", rather than sitting it out to the "natural" end.

Not sure how to handle animals, but we can at least try to not make it worse for them.

 

[Taylored]

I believe that It's okay to have children But I believe It's wrong for people to deny those same children the right to exit if they don't like how life is.