SipSop

SipSop

Arcanist
May 7, 2020
483
Who in here experieced the insidious, contradictory politics of relationships?
Things like:
- care about me, but after you care you are seen as weak and that means that you cared too much;
- I love you forever, but you see when indiference sets in and then you get the reply of: I don't feel it anymore;
- I don't care about looks or things and only character matters, but see how she looks at others and talks about different expensive cars;
- I want you to be nice but actually I like indifferent guys more;
- begins arguing about a matter and get's mad when you win the argument with logic and withholds affection and sex.
 
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Ghost2211

Archangel
Jan 20, 2020
6,017
Don't take this the wrong way it's not personal. I hate when guys use the "withholding affection and sex" thing. I'll hold my tongue since I know my feelings stem from sexual abuse and trauma, and I know some women use sex as a weapon, but oh goodness did that trigger.
 
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SipSop

SipSop

Arcanist
May 7, 2020
483
Don't take this the wrong way it's not personal. I hate when guys use the "withholding affection and sex" thing. I'll hold my tongue since I know my feelings stem from sexual abuse and trauma, and I know some women use sex as a weapon, but oh goodness did that trigger.
Is fine, you can express your views about it. Is a open debate, even if we have difderent point of views.
I want to highlight the contradictory nature of it.
Also, on this sexual subject Douglas Murray has a more educate point of view.
 
GrumpyFrog

GrumpyFrog

Exhausted
Aug 23, 2020
1,913
Human relationships, indeed, are complicated and contradictory and I think everyone involved in any kind of a meaningful relationship can admit they experienced that.
The thing is, we can never really know what the other people think or feel and why. When we interact with others, all that we get is a subjective interpretation of their thoughts and feelings. A thought or feeling formed in another persons head, that is expressed to you, passes two filters before it reaches you: first, it is somehow expressed by the other person in the way they believe is fit, which can have various degrees of directness, sometimes being extremely vague, and then it is interpreted by you through the lens of your own personal beliefs and life experience. So when the "message" reaches you after passing these two filters, it might be completely unrecognizable, fully lost on it's way and not noticed by you at all, or conversely you might see things that require interpretation while there really aren't any. To make matters worse, where discrepancies between "what I said" and "what you heard" become obvious, not all people accept that they simply misunderstood the other person, especially when the matter is sensitive.
And so we get situations like this:

- Bob and Alice tell each other "I love you" every morning. Bob is conservative and thinks that when you love someone, you do nice things for them, so he works a lot to buy Alice nice things. In turn, he expects Alice to take care of the house and make him nice lunches. Alice think that when you love someone you're affectionate with them. When Bob grows too tired to be affectionate, Alice thinks he now loves her less, and becomes insecure. She decides to get in shape. Now she does less around the house because she is constantly in the gym, and there is nothing in the fridge but apples and kale smoothies, and when Bob notices it, he believes she doesn't care about him needs, so she must love him less. They both grow resentful, suspect infidelity, and boom - conflict.

- Alice believes that when you care about someone, you talk to them about their feelings. Bob doesn't do it, so Alice tells him she wants him to care about her more. Bob believes caring means taking active part in the other person's life, so he begins to interject himself in Alice's activities more and more. Eventually, Alice accuses him of being controlling, Bob tells her he only does what she asked him to do, Alice denies, and boom -conflict.

- Alice hates Carol from accounting. One day when Carol is particularly nasty, Alice comes home and complains to Bob about Carol being an ass, and mentions her showing off her diamond engagement ring. Bob is a bit insecure about his finances, so all he gets from it is "diamond ring". Bob accuses Alice of caring about material things too much, because he feels like Alice is blaming him for not buying her a diamond ring. Alice is already pissed off, so she flies off the handle after hearing a very unexpected accusation. Boom - conflict.

I hope you understand what I was trying to convey. Wow, this is long. Thank you for coming to my TED talk :))
 
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OnlyTheWind

OnlyTheWind

Serena / Meatball head
Aug 29, 2020
962
And here I thought a relationship was hugs, holding hands and drinking tea together. Boy was I fucking naive. Can we nuke humanity already?
 
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SipSop

SipSop

Arcanist
May 7, 2020
483
Human relationships, indeed, are complicated and contradictory and I think everyone involved in any kind of a meaningful relationship can admit they experienced that.
The thing is, we can never really know what the other people think or feel and why. When we interact with others, all that we get is a subjective interpretation of their thoughts and feelings. A thought or feeling formed in another persons head, that is expressed to you, passes two filters before it reaches you: first, it is somehow expressed by the other person in the way they believe is fit, which can have various degrees of directness, sometimes being extremely vague, and then it is interpreted by you through the lens of your own personal beliefs and life experience. So when the "message" reaches you after passing these two filters, it might be completely unrecognizable, fully lost on it's way and not noticed by you at all, or conversely you might see things that require interpretation while there really aren't any. To make matters worse, where discrepancies between "what I said" and "what you heard" become obvious, not all people accept that they simply misunderstood the other person, especially when the matter is sensitive.
And so we get situations like this:

- Bob and Alice tell each other "I love you" every morning. Bob is conservative and thinks that when you love someone, you do nice things for them, so he works a lot to buy Alice nice things. In turn, he expects Alice to take care of the house and make him nice lunches. Alice think that when you love someone you're affectionate with them. When Bob grows too tired to be affectionate, Alice thinks he now loves her less, and becomes insecure. She decides to get in shape. Now she does less around the house because she is constantly in the gym, and there is nothing in the fridge but apples and kale smoothies, and when Bob notices it, he believes she doesn't care about him needs, so she must love him less. They both grow resentful, suspect infidelity, and boom - conflict.

- Alice believes that when you care about someone, you talk to them about their feelings. Bob doesn't do it, so Alice tells him she wants him to care about her more. Bob believes caring means taking active part in the other person's life, so he begins to interject himself in Alice's activities more and more. Eventually, Alice accuses him of being controlling, Bob tells her he only does what she asked him to do, Alice denies, and boom -conflict.

- Alice hates Carol from accounting. One day when Carol is particularly nasty, Alice comes home and complains to Bob about Carol being an ass, and mentions her showing off her diamond engagement ring. Bob is a bit insecure about his finances, so all he gets from it is "diamond ring". Bob accuses Alice of caring about material things too much, because he feels like Alice is blaming him for not buying her a diamond ring. Alice is already pissed off, so she flies off the handle after hearing a very unexpected accusation. Boom - conflict.

I hope you understand what I was trying to convey. Wow, this is long. Thank you for coming to my TED talk :))
It was a easy read.
You explain clear and in detail. I wish I had people like you to talk with when I was younger. People seem to get bored of long explanations, they just get lost in explanation.
Yeah, you pretty much went through all my points there with your example.

I try to think how to approach your comment.
You give people credit for misunderstanding some issues and you give them the benefit of the doubt. Plus you highlight that there can be incompatibility between 2 people in terms of chracter and interaction.
I can see that.
But I feel that I droped this way of thinking, because as I grow older I see that is not about being right but about winning, wich I don't like and despise but this is how world is. Winning is more important than being right, even if we don't like it. And being honest won't get you what you desire. So you either are born a scum, or the world will turn you into one IF YOU WANT TO WIN. I learned this the hard way.
And here I thought a relationship was hugs, holding hands and drinking tea together. Boy was I fucking naive. Can we nuke humanity already?
Hold on.
I call Putin.
 
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GrumpyFrog

GrumpyFrog

Exhausted
Aug 23, 2020
1,913
You give people credit for misunderstanding some issues and you give them the benefit of the doubt. Plus you highlight that there can be incompatibility between 2 people in terms of chracter and interaction.
I can see that.
But I feel that I droped this way of thinking, because as I grow older I see that is not about being right but about winning, wich I don't like and despise but this is how world is. Winning is more important than being right, even if we don't like it.
Thank you for reading my post :hug:
I understand your approach and I can't deny that I too grew more cynical and less trusting with age. I would also agree that people very often preach what they don't practice and state a moral approach they don't always adhere to, I might even be guilty of this myself to an extent.

You make a very interesting statement about winning and being right. I suppose by "winning" you understand achieving a certain goal or desirable situation, and by "being right" you understand sticking to one's moral compass while making choices and interacting with other human beings, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I would like to know your opinion, do you believe there might be people for whom winning and being right might be the same thing? I also wonder how do you see impulsive behavior playing into this, would you see impulsive actions and emotional outbursts as trying to win, or as a third option not previously mentioned?

So you either are born a scum, or the world will turn you into one IF YOU WANT TO WIN. I learned this the hard way.
I can understand that too. Over the years I changed myself and seen other people change even more drastically, as the society keeps kicking them until they learn to kick back. Do you believe there might be people who don't want to win?

Hold on.
I call Putin.
Damn politicians and their empty promises! 4 hours passed and the nukes still aren't here! I'm disappointed! :))
 
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SipSop

SipSop

Arcanist
May 7, 2020
483
I would like to know your opinion, do you believe there might be people for whom winning and being right might be the same thing? I also wonder how do you see impulsive behavior playing into this, would you see impulsive actions and emotional outbursts as trying to win, or as a third option not previously mentioned?
Well, is tricky. I would try to answer as best as I can and you decide what to make of it.
First, is matter of degree. Those who are used with winning and having their way would both counciously and uncounciously try to realise this. You don't know when is wich but the bottom line is that it happens the same and it drives you mad or makes you feel awful. In order to feel good, comfortable about themselves, secure and valuable. Therefore the emotional outbursts and rages when they do not have their way. But also, after the matter is done they are aware of how they treated others. And if they treated you like crap they will deny it to themselves trying to justify to themselves that they are good too. Even if they brought suffering to others for the sake of winning. Some people would cut others out of their life than to deny to themselves what they want because they feel or are powerful.
It is a decision and not everybody is like this but usually this happens.
Those who are used to not have their way more likely would accept the situation and avoid conflict in order to maintian peace wich usually is detrimebtal to that individual. Because they expect to be understood and the other individual to answer the same, wich sometimes it doesnt happen and people take advantage of them and thei good will.
Thats why I called it politics of relationships.
Do you believe there might be people who don't want to win?
Yes. Some people value relationships more than winning the fight.
 
N

Notme

Lost, struggling with life.
Aug 24, 2020
42
Who in here experieced the insidious, contradictory politics of relationships?
Things like:
- care about me, but after you care you are seen as weak and that means that you cared too much;
- I love you forever, but you see when indiference sets in and then you get the reply of: I don't feel it anymore;
- I don't care about looks or things and only character matters, but see how she looks at others and talks about different expensive cars;
- I want you to be nice but actually I like indifferent guys more;
- begins arguing about a matter and get's mad when you win the argument with logic and withholds affection and sex.
Been there it sucks. Especially when you give every thing to them and you get ducked over sucks.
 
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