Venting Polish presidential election

[ALonelyFreak]

Ok so we're having presidential election. There has been 13 candidates but ofc 11 of them don't matter at all they all can get fucked. Only 2 main parties' candidates count. Even though some of those 11 candidates were reasonable they are not worth anything. So we have 2 election turns. One is for all 13 candidates and the second is for the shortlisted 2. Because you need over 50% of votes to become the damn president.

So ofc second turn is only for the 2 top parties' candidates and one of them is becoming the Polish president this Sunday. Who are those 2 candidates?
1. Rafał Trzaskowski (Raphael) the president of Warsaw city from the center-wing party. He is not bad besides the fact that he despises poor people and his entire party despises poor people too. He's from the elites so he's better than everybody else. He's called "Rainbow Raphael" despite being a homophobe because he allowed LGBT to march through the Warsaw in a controlled manner. Cuz LGBT don't break the law while doing the Pride on average. Meanwhile he didn't allow for the patriotic marches and they are known for wreaking havoc. He's a homophobe but a light one. He doesn't think gays and lesbians are equal to heterosexuals but he isn't bothered by their presence. But in Poland in order to be moral you should be scared of the LGBT all the damn time. Ask any right-winger in Poland and he'll tell you LGBT wishes to end the entire civilization for fun. And yes in Poland you can publicly say lesbians and gay shouldn't have equal right and still be considered to be a rainbow ally.

2. Karol Nawrocki from the right-wing party PiS ("law and justice"). HE'S AN ACTUAL CRIMINAL. He used some loopholes to steal an apartment from an old alcoholic. He admitted in an official interview to taking part in hooligan activities such as illegal fights 70 vs 70. He did the snus(?) thing (small bag with nicotine inside, banned in EU apart from Sweden) at a fuckin debate on TV. He has some gangster friends so he befriended some people who went to prison for being in Polish mafia. There are more things about him but not all are confirmed yet. He was chosen as the candidate because the PiS party can manipulate him quite easily. But he's right-wing he ain't rainbow. He's also anti Ukrainian. But many people still support him because he's right-wing and "Christian".


WHY ARE POLES SO DAMN STUPID?! ARE WE ALL GIVEN LOBOTOMY AT BIRTH OR WHAT?! There has been reasonable candidates even one right-wing.

 

[WhatCouldHaveBeen32]

I feel for you, us Romanians almost had the same thing happen, we got out with the lesser evil imo but it's still not great, your situation sounds much more fucked , this is a big evil and the biggest evil.

 

[Carrot]

WHY ARE POLES SO DAMN STUPID?! ARE WE ALL GIVEN LOBOTOMY AT BIRTH OR WHAT?!

You were doing so well until this point.

I understand your frustration, your life is at stake, but I'm not sure if this is the way, if being emotional is the way. Poland has a lot to lose and the solution is fairly simple, don't vote for absolute evil. You know what, I'm going to vote for absolute evil. Present facts, clear information (presumably facts, I won't verify everything). I don't know too much about politics of Poland, but unfortunately there is a similar pattern in many countries.

One of the problems is deliberate misinformation, partially by Russia, partially because it's good money and is allowed without any repercussions. Think about who benefits from dividing people and why, both within the country and outside of it.

"LGBT wishes to end the entire civilization for fun" Obviously anti-natalists know their theory is unpopular, so they mask between these made up stuff. Is this true, is it not? Who cares? What are you going to do about it? This is similar to how somebody can say that nazis, fascists know that their ideas are not popular, so they had to do this and that in order to get into power.

"The left wants to stay in power forever. That's why they want all these immigrants, so they get more votes." Left portrays right as authoritarian, Right portrays left as authoritarian. It doesn't matter for this discussion which one is correct, if any. I'm just showcasing an issue. Have fun figuring that out, especially when you have a wife, kids and other stuff to worry about. You can simply trust that the information you hear on the news is correct.

"Zelensky is buying yachts with the funding he receives from the USA." Obviously if you read about stuff like this you won't want to support american taxpyer money going to buy yachts. The amount of unpunished propaganda is insane, you have no idea, it's been in the making for years and now Russia and China reap the benefits. And even if somebody knows how the money is spent, they might think it's a waste of money.

"I am part of group A (for example being Christian), another person is part of group A as well, so they are probably one of the good guys, we are on the same team." I'm not sure how to word this well. I see plenty of people in power abusing religion and it is so obvious, all the time. You'd think people would notice by now. I don't have time to write about this right now, it's complicated.

A lof of people on the left believe that they are doing good.
A lot of people on the right believe that they are doing good.
Don't underestimate propaganda.

Out of all people, Polish people should understand to stay united, meanwhile you have a 50/50 split like anywhere else.

What can we do about it?
I have some ideas, but I'm not sure. I should probably spend the most time here, but I won't.
Ideally don't let stuff like this happen in the first place, by educating people and punishing misinformation. But let's forget about that for now, because we already allowed it to happen.
I'd try to find common ground, some serious issue that nearly everybody can agree on. An issue so big, so important that everything else pales in comparison. For Polish people, that issue should be fairly easy to find. I'd start there. Take a look at how people talk about this absolutely vital issue and their ideas waht to do about it.

 

[ALonelyFreak]

I feel for you, us Romanians almost had the same thing happen, we got out with the lesser evil imo but it's still not great, your situation sounds much more fucked , this is a big evil and the biggest evil.

Thanks but for now you Romanians have it worse. If Raphael the centrist will win he probably won't do much bad but he won't do much good either. He will do many subtle things to screw the poor I think. But if Karol wins then yes it'll be second Romania.
Btw here in Poland I'm hearing propaganda that Romania is basically fucked because of EU not allowing Romania to choose who they want because allegedly Romanian favourite is a Russian agent so the EU is trying to destroy Romanian democracy to stop that Russian agent. Is that true?

You were doing so well until this point.

I understand your frustration, your life is at stake, but I'm not sure if this is the way, if being emotional is the way. Poland has a lot to lose and the solution is fairly simple, don't vote for absolute evil. You know what, I'm going to vote for absolute evil. Present facts, clear information (presumably facts, I won't verify everything). I don't know too much about politics of Poland, but unfortunately there is a similar pattern in many countries.

One of the problems is deliberate misinformation, partially by Russia, partially because it's good money and is allowed without any repercussions. Think about who benefits from dividing people and why, both within the country and outside of it.

"LGBT wishes to end the entire civilization for fun" Obviously anti-natalists know their theory is unpopular, so they mask between these made up stuff. Is this true, is it not? Who cares? What are you going to do about it? This is similar to how somebody can say that nazis, fascists know that their ideas are not popular, so they had to do this and that in order to get into power.

"The left wants to stay in power forever. That's why they want all these immigrants, so they get more votes." Left portrays right as authoritarian, Right portrays left as authoritarian. It doesn't matter for this discussion which one is correct, if any. I'm just showcasing an issue. Have fun figuring that out, especially when you have a wife, kids and other stuff to worry about. You can simply trust that the information you hear on the news is correct.

"Zelensky is buying yachts with the funding he receives from the USA." Obviously if you read about stuff like this you won't want to support american taxpyer money going to buy yachts. The amount of unpunished propaganda is insane, you have no idea, it's been in the making for years and now Russia and China reap the benefits. And even if somebody knows how the money is spent, they might think it's a waste of money.

"I am part of group A (for example being Christian), another person is part of group A as well, so they are probably one of the good guys, we are on the same team." I'm not sure how to word this well. I see plenty of people in power abusing religion and it is so obvious, all the time. You'd think people would notice by now. I don't have time to write about this right now, it's complicated.

A lof of people on the left believe that they are doing good.
A lot of people on the right believe that they are doing good.
Don't underestimate propaganda.

Out of all people, Polish people should understand to stay united, meanwhile you have a 50/50 split like anywhere else.

What can we do about it?
I have some ideas, but I'm not sure. I should probably spend the most time here, but I won't.
Ideally don't let stuff like this happen in the first place, by educating people and punishing misinformation. But let's forget about that for now, because we already allowed it to happen.
I'd try to find common ground, some serious issue that nearly everybody can agree on. An issue so big, so important that everything else pales in comparison. For Polish people, that issue should be fairly easy to find. I'd start there. Take a look at how people talk about this absolutely vital issue and their ideas waht to do about it.

Why, is called Poles lobotomed mean? Yeah sorry it's a venting thread not like super duper informed thread of politics. And yes I'll vote against absolute evil Karol and I'll vote for Rafał (Raphael). And it's humilitating you know because Raphael despises poor people like me. So it's kinda like you choose between two abusers.


And yes there is a lot of propaganda right now. But what do you mean are you like saying they are likely not so bad they are just portrayed terribly? Propaganda is confusing but I'm tryna speak the truth. For example right-wing propaganda accuses Raphael of being a LGBT fanatic despite him being a homophobe. And Raphael's propaganda is trying to hide the fact that he did some shady stuff to advertise his candidature. But those shady stuff arent as severe he just financed his candidature wrong. Raphael's team is breaking a law to get better odds at the election but he's only hurting the election process.
There is some anti Ukrainian propaganda but I'm mostly ignoring it. Basically this propaganda says that Ukrainians are draining Polish' government money. The Raphael's despise of poor people can be partly part of propaganda but not fully. He really despises poor folk but I'm not sure how bad it is. His party is lazy. They won't do needed laws because they don't feel like it. His party won the parliament election in late 2023 and they havent done much. They promised to do 100 things in 100 days most of them were easy some were undoable. To this day they have done over a dozen. It depends on how you count it but at max they did 23 things and it's been 1.5 years. Many of the undone things were easy and could help poor folk but they simply don't give a fuck.

We don't have much left in Poland and they aren't as extreme as in the West. We don't even talk of the trans/non binary folk here much. in Poland LGBT is mostly just lesbian gays bisexuals. There has been 3 left-winged candidates. One of them Joanna Seneszyn was a joke candidate not a real candidate. She's left wing and she just wanted to have fun (she's very old). Adrian Zandberg and Magdalena Biejat were real left-wing candidates. All 3 of them accumulated around 11% votes in the first part of the election.
Tw: rape, abortion.

Spoiler: tw rape abortion

Meanwhile Sławomir Mentzen the far right candidate (but at least he's not a criminal yet) accumulated 15%. He says abortion caused by rape should be illegal. According to him if a 16 yo girl gets raped and then gets pregnant she should bear the child. And it's not propaganda he said this in a public interview. He also said in the perfect world you should pay for your education just like in the USA. He says you must not insult his religion. In Poland if you say that Christianity if a fucked up idiotic religion you will go to the court and might get fined. Yes for real. You can't speak what you think of religions. He got 15% so more than the entire Left combined.

Then you have Grzegorz Braun who got 6%. He's even far-righter than Sławomir Mentzen but he's more known for his anti semitic views and hatred for the EU. He's the candidate for the conspiracy fans.


Back to Karol Nawrocki the main right-wing candidate who got 29% in the first election turn and he's short listed. He did a debate with Raphael lately in which he did the snus thing. Fake snus is allowed in Poland allegedly if it has little nicotine. But real snus is banned in Poland. I'm not sure whether it was real snus or fake. Then he admitted to the hooligan activities in an interview. I'm just tryna speak of the confirmed stuff. He said those fights were actually good? and he's a strong man and he'll defend Poland with his strong heart and strong muscles.

Okay the apartment story is very interesting actually. There was a mister Jerzy. He's an alcoholic and he was leaving in a state-owned appartment. 10 or 12 years ago the state said "okay you are renting and the apartment is worth 120 000 złotych but you can buy it with 12 000 złotych and it'll be your apartment". Mr Jerzy didn't have 12 thousand złoty. Back then minimal wage was like I dunno 2 thousand złotych and he was poor. So Karol Nawrocki came to him and said imma pay for you but you gotta write in your last will that I'll inherit the apartment. And here the story gets very very confusing. The right propaganda is trying to say Karol was a good guy he tried to help an old man. But some people say he didn't actually pay the 12k he did loan sharking so mr Jerzy actually lost more money. I'm not sure which is true but story gets more interesting. Karol Nawrocki left mr Jerzy for a few years letting him live in his bought flat. Mr Jerzy wrote his last will. Then a few years later Karol came back and they made a new will. It said Karol will pay 120 000 thousand złotych to mr Jerzy for the flat and he'll take care of him because mr Jerzy was sickly and needed care. Either way that agreement was illegal bc Nawrocki didn't pay the 120 000 in proper way if he paid it at all. It should be confirmed. There should be papers stating when he paid what. But there aren't any showed "yes we signed the second agreeement and month later i paid first installment". So we don't know if Karol really paid the 120k for the flat. The second problem is why the fuck did he agree to pay 120k in the first place?! He would inherit the flat anyway and he didn't chase mr Jerzy from the apartment anyway so he kinda paid 120k for absolutely nothing?! It's like "Imma pay you 60 times the minimal wage cuz I like you". There is no relationship between them that could explain this. Third problem is that Karol promised to take care of mr Jerzy and then he basically lost him. But thankfully mr Jerzy is fine. Bc he's very sickly he was taken to a care home and Karol didn't bother to check what happened to Mr Jerzy for half a year or more. Karol isn't paying for the care home either and care homes aren't for free in Poland. So nothing in this story makes any sense and right-wing propaganda says LOOK HES SO NICE HE PAID TWICE JUST TO HELP HIM. Yeah I thought it's an interesting story.

 

[Carrot]

Why? Because being rude doesn't help in having a meaningful, constructive discussion and finding the truth. No matter the truth, it might be a sign that you have no idea what you are talking about and instead of addressing what somebody said, you insult them.

I'd try to find a common issue, such as potential war, and try to figure out which party helps preventing war. Everything else seems like a non issue compared to war. I think that should be the most important issue instead of whether somebody is gay or if abortion should be legal. I'd view things through these lense. I hope Poles figure it out, I'm worried about democracy. It's flawed, but better than authoritarianism. Look what happened to Hungary, Belarus, Slovenia.

 

[ALonelyFreak]

Why? Because being rude doesn't help in having a meaningful, constructive discussion and finding the truth. No matter the truth, it might be a sign that you have no idea what you are talking about and instead of addressing what somebody said, you insult them.

I'd try to find a common issue, such as potential war, and try to figure out which party helps preventing war. Everything else seems like a non issue compared to war. I think that should be the most important issue instead of whether somebody is gay or if abortion should be legal. I'd view things through these lense. I hope Poles figure it out, I'm worried about democracy. It's flawed, but better than authoritarianism. Look what happened to Hungary, Belarus, Slovenia.

Ah yeah being mean doesn't help okay but it's just a venting thread mostly.
Rafał Trzaskowski, one right-wing candidate (Szymon Hołownia, got 4.99%, he's right-wing but not too badly), all the left are against the war yes. There has been some non meaningful candidates that got 1% or less and I'm unsure about them but they don't have any party connections anyway. One of the meaninless guys is an active Russia agent. Right-wingers such as Karol Nawrocki, Sławomir Mentzen, Grzegorz Braun are all pro Russia but implicitly. For example Grzegorz Braun says he wants EU to be over which would fuck Poland over real bad. Sławomir Mentzen agrees with him but not to that extent. He says the EU harms Poland but leaving isn't an option yet. Karol Nawrocki kinda doesn't have strict views but he's also slightly against the EU. So the right-wingers don't explicitly say they like Russia but they do a lot of things that would benefit Russia.

Speaking of the Ukrainians. They are kinda getting bullied because of the election. In Poland when you make yourself two children you get 800 złoty monthly and then another 800 for each next child till it becomes an adult. It's the one good thing done by Karol's party in like 2017. Ukrainians living in Poland get 800 złoty too. Minimal wage is like 3800 or sth like this. So both Rafał and Karol want to take it away from the Ukrainians even though it wouldn't save much money. Right-wingers want to bully Ukrainians harder and they say they don't deserve medical care. Medical care is also a gigantic problem in Poland but again taking Ukrainian's right away would save much money.
The main problem is that the Ukrainians 100 years ago did the Wołyń massacre on the Polish folk. I don't know the historical details but it was bad but not in entire Poland it was on the east side of Poland. The Ukrainians never apologized and they still haven't allowed for the exhumation of the victims and their proper burial. This is used against them a lot. I'm pro Ukrainians but they are making their situation worse. They should just apologize for the tragedy and let Polish government do the proper burial of the victims. We're supporting Ukrainians for now but if Karol Nawrocki becomes the president on Sunday it may change.


Maybe LGBT rights don't matter very very much just much but you know they are talked about a lot. Abortion is kinda important you know at least for the women. We're having basically Texas' law when it comes to abortion. There has been a few cases when a woman died from sepsis because the fetus died and the doctors didn't want to abort the dead fetus because they could possibly be sued. The abortion issue seems minor until you're affected.

When the EU does one dumb law it gets talked a lot in Poland and used against the EU a lot. Also right-wingers are against ecology and fighting climate change totally. Ecology isn't doing well in Poland XDD This is also a gigantic problem. We are doing coal mines still. Closing them down would mean firing 72 thousand people. Polish coal is ineffective and expensive. And because EU is kinda forcing us to do ecology right-wingers hate it. For example one of the coal(?) mines nearby south border in Turów (?) a few years ago screwed up the Czech Republic. So PiS party made the situation worse instead of apologizing to the Czech somehow they basically told the Czech Republic to fuck off and the EU forced us to pay for that. We won't have any atomic energy untill 2030 at the very fucking least. Because the government is incompetent and can't build anything such. Both Rafał's and Karol's parties are to blame.

Speaking of democracy actually Karol Nawrocki's party fucked up a lot. Well Rafał's party also fucked up but not as much. PiS party ruled from 2015 to 2023. They dismantled our trial system. There are some certain rules when it comes to choosing judges whatever I know nothing. So PiS party (Karol Nawrocki's party) broke all those rules and installed wrong judges and also did some other things so now judges' verdicts can be cancelled which is very problematic when they rule something regarding the government. This causes havoc and it can get worse. But it doesnt also wreak havoc when it comes to the government related verdicts. Apparently there has been some murderers and other heavy criminals convicted by the wrong judges so now their trials have to be redone. Just because the judge was wrong even if their verdict was correct.

 

[WhatCouldHaveBeen32]

Thanks but for now you Romanians have it worse. If Raphael the centrist will win he probably won't do much bad but he won't do much good either. He will do many subtle things to screw the poor I think. But if Karol wins then yes it'll be second Romania.
Btw here in Poland I'm hearing propaganda that Romania is basically fucked because of EU not allowing Romania to choose who they want because allegedly Romanian favourite is a Russian agent so the EU is trying to destroy Romanian democracy to stop that Russian agent. Is that true?

We barely managed last week to elect the non Russian agent, it was 52% to 48% or something. We got someone who I believe is okay but not really out of the ordinary, so basically what we had until now, we are only delaying the inevitable, if nothing will be done , the extremists will win. Every year the gap gets closer and next time it might be 40% for the non extremist and 60% for the extremist.

 

[Carrot]

And yes there is a lot of propaganda right now. But what do you mean are you like saying they are likely not so bad they are just portrayed terribly? Propaganda is confusing but I'm tryna speak the truth. For example right-wing propaganda accuses Raphael of being a LGBT fanatic despite him being a homophobe.

I was going to address this before but got distracted. I'm not sure how to phrase it. They might not be bad. Maybe they are simply exposed to misinformation, and based on that information they receive and believe, they act in a good way.

If somebody reads news about Zelensky buying yachts with taxpayers money, it makes sense that they don't want to support sending money to Ukraine. If the money is spend to buy yachts, the "good" thing is to not send money.
If somebody reads news about Orban stealing EU money, it makes sense they want to block EU funds to Hungary or think EU is bad. If the money doesn't go to something that benefits the public, then the "good" thing is to block the money.

How is an average person supposed to figure out what is true and what is not? In addition to that, emotional news makes money, misinformation is not punished, misinformation is not illegal. Misinformation can come from malicious actors. And if you start censoring stuff, then some will accuse you of authoritarianism, which means they vote for opposition, and at some point you'll end up with actual authoritarianism.