Personal responsibility

[Kumachan]

Religion, society, culture in general seem to be based on these ideas of "free will", "master of your own destiny", being good or bad "person", becoming "better version of oneself" etc. These ideas lead to much strain and suffering in my experience. Its like self-reinforcing mental virus - if we think of ourselves as being a "person" we cant help but seeing others as "persons" as well, and we act and relate accordingly.

I invite you to look at your life as a whole and see that you cannot separate things like your body and mind, circumstances, family, society, education etc from who you consider yourself to be - its all inseparable parts of this "life". And ask these questions:

1. If i have "free will", what is it free from?
2. If theres "free will", then who is it for?
3. Who am I?

The more i look at my life the more i feel its more like a dream - its ONE THING. Notion of a separate "person" acting freely inside this "life" seems more and more ridiculous.

 

[Arrow]

freewill isn't really real because if you were to measure the speed and direction of every particle in the universe you'd be able to predict the future with 100% accuracy

 

[ERASED]

Religion, society, culture in general seem to be based on these ideas of "free will", "master of your own destiny", being good or bad "person", becoming "better version of oneself" etc. These ideas lead to much strain and suffering in my experience. Its like self-reinforcing mental virus - if we think of ourselves as being a "person" we cant help but seeing others as "persons" as well, and we act and relate accordingly.

I invite you to look at your life as a whole and see that you cannot separate things like your body and mind, circumstances, family, society, education etc from who you consider yourself to be - its all inseparable parts of this "life". And ask these questions:

1. If i have a free will, what is it free of?
2. If theres free will, then who is it for?
3. Who am I?

The more i look at my life the more i feel its more like a dream - its ONE THING. Notion of a separate "person" acting freely inside this "life" seems more and more ridiculous.

That's a good one. I will have to meditate and come back to this question.

 

[Skathon]

you cannot separate things like your body and mind

...they are always separate.

you cannot separate things like your body and mind, circumstances, family, society, education etc from who you consider yourself to be

Why would I not? My mind may be affected by yet has never been connected to any external aspects.

 

[Kumachan]

...they are always separate.

Why would I not? My mind may be affected by yet has never been connected to any external aspects.

Mind is thoughts. Thoughts are produced by the brain, brain is part of the body. Thoughts are influenced by your surroundings, events, other people etc. Thoughts produce effects in the body - anxious thoughts produce muscular tension and so on. Do you control your mind/thoughts?

 

[Good4Nothing]

Is there a third option, something between free will and no free will?
Like, I seem to have free will to make decisions and take actions, yet life always seems to have another plan for me.
If I make up my mind that I want something, and take the steps to get it, life will actively fight against me to make sure I don't get that thing.
I seem to be making choices... I just can't win.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

A past thread that discussed free will in ctb, but also in general:

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/how-free-is-free-will-in-relation-to-ctb.32744/

 

[GoBack]

As much free will as you have other people have it too and there's no telling wat they'll do with it that will affect you and vice versa

 

[Kumachan]

Is there a third option, something between free will and no free will?
Like, I seem to have free will to make decisions and take actions, yet life always seems to have another plan for me.
If I make up my mind that I want something, and take the steps to get it, life will actively fight against me to make sure I don't get that thing.
I seem to be making choices... I just can't win.

i dont see how thats logically possible, i mean where do you draw the line? Partially restricted will is already not free.

Thats exactly whats happening, imagined "person" or "I" SEEMS to be making choices. Life acts against. What if your making choices is also a part of life? After all, your choices are based on your life experiences, education, your intellect(what if you were born stupid?)... And all this decision-making is a thought process produced by the brain which "you" have no control over or have you?

 

[Skathon]

Mind is thoughts. Thoughts are produced by the brain, brain is part of the body.

Any matter that forms a container yet does not generate consciousness is an empty vessel. The brain cells that do generate it may potentially be placed in any appropriate shell (including synthetic/inorganic ones).

Do you control your mind/thoughts?

...do I control myself? Certainly.
"My mind" and "I" are synonymous, I mean: the neurone/brain impulses that create (have?) a personality.
Though, the proper cognitive functioning requires subconsciousness, which is... a storage, therefore cannot be controlled directly by its owner. Nevertheless, it may be restricted or emptied.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

yes and no

 

[Kumachan]

...do I control myself? Certainly.

You never have ridiculous silly thoughts popping out of nowhere? You can "choose" to not act upon them, trying to control "yourself" but that would be just another thought in response to the first one, again based on your entire life experience.

 

[Skathon]

You never have ridiculous silly thoughts popping out of nowhere?

...no. Is it unusual...?

 

[Kumachan]

...no. Is it unusual...?

Yes, it is. Pretty rare. If you control your thoughs as you say, can you think only happy/constructive thoughts? I have no control - thoughts just come

 

[Life sucks]

No but you feel the illusion of completely controlling yourself so whether its free will doesn't matter practically and shouldn't be used an excuse for assholery.
Theoretically and scientifically->No free will
Practically or emotionally ->You feel the illusion of free will completely

 

[Skathon]

If you control your thoughs as you say, can you think only happy/constructive thoughts?

I would be able to, yet... why? Doing something I find neither interesting nor pleasurable would be rather painful/exhausting.

 

[Kumachan]

No but you feel the illusion of completely controlling yourself so whether its free will doesn't matter practically and shouldn't be used an excuse for assholery.
Theoretically and scientifically->No free will
Practically or emotionally ->You feel the illusion of free will completely

no not assholery. Im talking about negative psychological effects of this persistent illusion. Belief that im a person responsible for my life, trying desperately to gain control when infact its just not the case.

 

[Life sucks]

no not assholery. Im talking about negative psychological effects of this persistent illusion. Belief that im a person responsible for my life, trying desperately to gain control when infact its just not the case.

Yea thats one of the reasons why life is shitty and fundamentally flawed. The more one know about it and how its an illusion, the more suffering, mental problems and negative psychological effects one gets. Also thats part of why I'm antinatalist, people come to suffer in an illusionary life.