Discussion Open and empty individualism

[settheory]

Open individualism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Explained here ^
Russian wikipedia article (goes more in depth + a bit about empty individualism)

Empty, Open and Closed Individualism – Manu Herrán

manuherran.com

It is similar to the notion of reincarnation but without all that "remembering past life" fluff. Very roughly speaking, open individualism is the notion of all consciousness "being" the same indiviudal, and empty individualism being about each experience being it's own separate individual, "my" past and future selves and others. There is a similar thing is Buddhism, "no-self" or something like that.
Closed individualism is the normal view, probably default for most people, that there are separate individuals who have some experiences.
This might be quite relevant here and have some huge implications for ctb.

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

Damn, I wish I was smart enough for this.

 

[callme]

Damn, I wish I was smart enough for this.

Very roughly speaking and I didn't get a word of it. Probably never will.

 

[Makko]

Damn, I wish I was smart enough for this.

We're a decentralised hive mind. One consciousness with compartmentalised life experiences.

 

[motel rooms]

It is similar to the notion of reincarnation but without all that "remembering past life" fluff. Very roughly speaking, open individualism is the notion of all consciousness "being" the same indiviudal

How is this not just another way of talking about nondualism? Yes, on a subatomic level everything is actually one, but that doesn't mean shit to me because I'm not a subatomic particle

This might be quite relevant here and have some huge implications for ctb.

What are these huge implications? Are you afraid that you'll die if I ctb before you because we're actually one on some fancy speculative level?

 

[Makko]

How is this not just another way of talking about nondualism? Yes, on a subatomic level everything is actually one, but that doesn't mean shit to me because I'm not a subatomic particle

It doesn't mean anything to you because you experience life as if you are your body. Abstract things don't mean anything to a body. I experience life as if I'm something other than my body, and the abstract things are the filter inbetween. Then they matter.

 

[motel rooms]

It doesn't mean anything to you because you experience life as if you are your body. Abstract things don't mean anything to a body. I experience life as if I'm something other than my body, and the abstract things are the filter inbetween. Then they matter.

I guess I'm just irremediably unevolved compared to you... Do you experience life as this glorious consciousness we're all supposedly part of? Do you feel at one with everyone & everything else? You say you don't even feel at one with yourself

 

[Makko]

I guess I'm just irremediably unevolved compared to you... Do you experience life as this glorious consciousness we're all supposedly part of? Do you feel at one with everyone & everything else? You say you don't even feel at one with yourself

I experience life through a revolving lens of what is real and what isn't, and I have no control over the revolutions. The powerlessness is why I'm on this site, so you don't need to sass me about it.

 

[Bullit]

Damn, I wish I was smart enough for this.

I just avoid these posts. Saves time.

 

[callme]

I just avoid these posts. Saves time.

Utilitarian found

 

[settheory]

there are different senses in which we may talk about an "individual", "i". Some may be meaningful, some may be meaningless or false. Both empty and open individualism agree that there is one false way of speaking about individuality. It might not make sense when we are talking about what experiences are "ours" and which are not sometimes.
i can say that, in a way, only my current experience and memory is "mine", and memory is a part of my current experience. but memory of past is not past. we don't exactly experience past itself, only some mental events that resemble in a way the whole past experiences or their parts.
idk tho.

 

[callme]

there are different senses in which we may talk about an "individual", "i". Some may be meaningful, some may be meaningless or false. Both empty and open individualism agree that there is one false way of speaking about individuality. It might not make sense when we are talking about what experiences are "ours" and which are not sometimes.
i can say that, in a way, only my current experience and memory is "mine", and memory is a part of my current experience. but memory of past is not past. we don't exactly experience past itself, only some mental events that resemble in a way the whole past experiences or their parts.
idk tho.

Seems like some kind of Buddhist shtick. How are past events and our experience of them not past? We are conscious of them, so they are us.

 

[BottomlessPit]

Even if one supposes that awareness itself is the same in every individual, and that the particular contents of consciousness are of no relevance, then it still wouldn't make sense to say that it's all 'one' awareness across all individuals. All awarenesses might be identical in character, but they are still cut off from each other since each and everyone one of them is produced by a different brain.

 

[khz89]

I think empty individualism is a bit different from no-self, it seems to imply there is a renewing self in each present moment, and that continuity of self is an illusion. Buddhism says that even that concept of self is an illusion with no substance.
But with either of them, if you actually internalise the view, I think it makes suicide easier. Because there's no continuous You to cling on to, your You ends with each moment (or just never existed at all). So it's just like the end of a dream or something. (On the inverse, if you believe in oneness, it should be easier too, since nothing is being lost by dying)

 

[Lmd]

I like this. I wish I could disconnect that much from my current situation. I see things more like there's no me after this but my actions remains in time and they are part of the group that we form as well as the actions of other people that I don't even know and who have been dead for centuries have affected my way of being and acting. The same individual for me is humanity, I form part of it but the difference is that I don't see a "future" me.