Oklahoma tries banning gender care under age 26.

[WorthlessTrash]

I don't know where they are from but out of interest, what's the detrans rate for assigned male at birth only? Is there a figure? The gatekeeping method would seem to side with ftm. I use UK example as it was what I know. Take for example real life experience, it is far more humiliting to suddenly wear dresses, skirts, blouse (whatever) while not on any hormone for years so your body is not even adapting to fit with it. Than ftm who wear jeans, shirt. Now |I'm not sure if this is still the procedure but UK is so stupid and backward it likely does not follow WPATH. Which reminds me this is from NHS brochure: https://remedy.bnssg.icb.nhs.uk/media/3304/hormonal-treatment-london-clinic-mtf-2011.pdf

This is a complete lie. It is impossible for estroegen to become testosterone. So they justify low dose through fake science. So a person may go through the process, years of getting hormones, to get pathetic treatment. If we move all external cause including intentional-dereliction what's left?

Also after hrt, ftm may then be at a disadvantage. Because if they pass, well I can only point to the hundreds of topics males young and old have on this forum with inceldom, homelessness and so on. So again you may see more detrans through this. I'm trying hard not to offend anyone saying that but we are all using the same forum and these seem obvious to me.

I believe they are in the US, and they are AFAB. It's actually the person in chat that we talk to sometimes.

 

[Barteljaap]

Since when can adults decide when to end their life but the same people can't decide when transition is the right choice for them? That doesn't make any sense.

To be fair, any government-assisted suicide programme (and I would be in favour of having one) should be 100% off limits to minors.

26 is obviously ridiculous, anyone over the age of 18 should be able to do with their bodies as they want. But people will be afraid when it comes to minors. You can present those studies, sure, but it feels like allowing this for minors opens the door for ill-intentioned parents or therapists/doctors.

 

[Sakura94]

The therapists in US are acting on data from WPATH I think which also takes from other countries which retain the practice. It is already too difficult for AMAB I am not sure how further safe guards can be put in without discrimination or unnecessary cruelty to AMAB.
Now another reason I also mention UK other than familiarity is that these laws out of their own corrupted system are given as examples throughout other countries. The Bell V Tavistock within the UK will be cited by US law makers to attack all trans/intersex/ policy. It already has in Sweden (Link here pdf document/statement)

The UK pushes for binary sex based rights and has backing to do so. All Sex Based groups seem based in UK.
Here is a new bill in North Dakota (same blog Rain cited)
https://erininthemorn.substack.com/p/north-dakota-bill-would-require-employers
(edit: just adding links forgot a couple)

 

[escaped]

I am trans and I really hope something like this doesn't make it to my state. That would probably give me the final push to end it.

I don't see why the previous commenters in this thread are in favor of this. How can you support someone's right to die but not their right to live in their correct gender? Foul.

 

[Szinuus]

I remember one person from this forum who CTB due to the failed trans surgeries etc. This person warned about early transitions.

 

[WorthlessTrash]

I remember one person from this forum who CTB due to the failed trans surgeries etc. This person warned about early transitions.

Are you saying they did early trans surgeries, or was deprived of them?

 

[Winterreise]

What does this have to do with my comment? I dont enjoy joe's content. Anyways No you dont become trans on your 18th or 25th birthday, but around mid 20s your brain developes. You can make educated decisions. You factor in risks. Serious question Do you think a child can read the insert from the puberty blockers and fully understand what these things do to their body right now or in the long run?
and btw what r we gonna do about the misogyny on this forum ? are we just going to gloss over that?

So you want the fate of transpoeple to be in the hands of politicians and popular opinions,not medicalpersonell?
Why should people give a shit about trans, when they have their own problems?
With all your problems and whatabouts, trans should be last thing on your mind right now

 

[wait.what]

I've been trying to respond to this thread all day, but I've somehow been simultaneously too busy and too dead inside. Trying to keep appointments is a bitch when you're dead.

The short version of what I wanted to say is that the WPATH Standards are still largely the only game in town within the U.S., and far from giving kids excessive say over their own medical care, they weirdly treat grown people like children. I was in my 40's and before I could get HRT, I had to 1) have seen a therapist for at least 6 months and 2) have that person write a letter detailing the entire history of my gender identity going back to my earliest memories. This was not the Dark Ages either. It was 5 years ago.

Of course, WPATH also treats children like children, and that part is obviously fine. An abundance of caution when dealing with minors makes sense, so long as puberty blockers remain available to them.

Let me preface this next comment by saying that HRT isn't made available to pubescent children at all. But if the mere thought of giving hormone prescriptions to 10 to 13-year-olds horrifies you, why would cis puberty be any good for kids that age either? "Letting nature take it's course" is also a decision, and it also has lifelong consequences. Puberty blockers are the only gender-affirming medical care made available to U.S. minors younger than their mid-teens, and even to get those they need the permission of all guardians with medical decision-making rights, and the sign-off of at least one therapist, and the willingness of a doctor to write for the medication. Possibly—just possibly—a group of adults with a personal and/or professional duty of care toward a particular kid might make better decisions for him/her/them than a bunch of legislators who aren't doctors, or therapists, or people who have even met the kid in question.

 

[gottablast888]

So you want the fate of transpoeple to be in the hands of politicians and popular opinions,not medicalpersonell?
Why should people give a shit about trans, when they have their own problems?
With all your problems and whatabouts, trans should be last thing on your mind right now

All yall do is dodge my questions so why would i answer yours

 

[Szinuus]

Are you saying they did early trans surgeries, or was deprived of them?

I think he/she did early trans surgeries and regretted it.

 

[cemetorium]

I'm genuinely disgusted at some of the behaviour I've seen in this thread. I don't expect people to understand how gender dysphoria feels and how it affects trans people, but seriously, is it that hard for you to understand that not everyone experiences life like you do?
I am a trans man (aka FTM). I've experienced gender/sex dysphoria my whole life, and found out I was trans around age 11, when I first discovered the term "transsexual" and what it meant.
I haven't had an easy transition. I live in a country where there isn't a single gender clinic. I had/have to go to a clinic in another country just to get access to hormones and surgery referrals, and no, they did NOT give me an easy time. I had my first appointment at this clinic at age 17, and didn't start testosterone until I was 20. Waiting 3 years to start HRT from when I had my first appointment felt like nothing but mental torture. I was treated like I couldn't think for myself because I have autism and am mentally ill.
I have never thought transition would cure my mental health issues, however, getting on testosterone has helped me immensely. I tried to kill myself multiple times in the months leading up to when I finally got my prescription, because of how horribly and severely it affected my mental health, especially because of how long I had to wait. One of the only reasons I didn't ctb in 2022 is because I found out I'm likely to be able to get one of my surgeries this year.


I still firmly believe I will die by suicide due to my life-long severe mental health issues, etc...
But that doesn't negate the fact that medical transition has a very positive effect on my life and wellbeing.


And yes, I'm well aware that there are people who believe they're trans, and later discover they aren't after all, and that some of these people undergo some level of medical transition, and then regret it later on. The experiences of detransitioners doesn't mean that gender dysphoria isn't real, or that transition is never beneficial. It means that either they made a mistake on their own, or a doctor (or doctors) made a mistake on their part. I am aware it's more nuanced than just this. But my main point is simply that detransitioners existing does not mean that actual trans people exist, and that we absolutely do benefit from undergoing medical transition.


Excuse how rambly (and probably incoherent) my post is. It's something that deeply affects me personally, so I felt a need to respond. Kinda rushed.

 

[Gaga786]

This mod should kill him/herself

What is wrong with you ? why are you spreading negativity. We should all be there for one another, even if we don't agree with other peoples' beliefs.It hurts me seeing these comments. I understand why there is so much animosity but you shouldn't spread it. it clearly hurts a lot of people. I hope you understand the implications of your comment.

 

[RainAndSadness]

Update. We have more coverage about the new wave of increasingly radical anti-trans bills. And we finally have a mask off moment too.



So it was all about outlawing trans care right from the start, they simply pushed the easy part of their agenda first. As I said in my first post here, "concerns" for the safety of children were simply a gateway to push more radical legislation over time. And I hope everyone who ever supported such regressive policies, that essentially interfere in medical decisions between a child, their parents and their doctor, knows they've been an useful idiot for the normalization of laws that over time undeniably result in trans genocide. It's disgusting and that's what you get when politicans interfere with personal decisions that are none of their business. And look, from a medical standpoint, it doesn't matter if I get chemo therapy or hormones, when it's part of very important treatment for a condition, and when my doctor informed me about the risks and benefits of this treatment and when I consent to this type of therapy, politicans have no fucking business interfering with these decisions.

Here is the article.

G.O.P. State Lawmakers Push a Growing Wave of Anti-Transgender Bills

Four states could ban transition care into young adulthood. Lawmakers in several others want to restrict drag shows in ways that could affect transgender performers broadly. It’s part of a long-term plan.

www.nytimes.com

 

[weightedrocks]

Fucking disgusting. I hate all the fucking transphobic bigotry in this country right now. Fucking stuck here feel like shit and I can't even get the "gender affirming" shit that supposed to make me feel better.
It's almost like republicans want me to kill myself, which tbh many already do.

 

[0000000000000]

I'm genuinely disgusted at some of the behaviour I've seen in this thread. I don't expect people to understand how gender dysphoria feels and how it affects trans people, but seriously, is it that hard for you to understand that not everyone experiences life like you do?
I am a trans man (aka FTM). I've experienced gender/sex dysphoria my whole life, and found out I was trans around age 11, when I first discovered the term "transsexual" and what it meant.
I haven't had an easy transition. I live in a country where there isn't a single gender clinic. I had/have to go to a clinic in another country just to get access to hormones and surgery referrals, and no, they did NOT give me an easy time. I had my first appointment at this clinic at age 17, and didn't start testosterone until I was 20. Waiting 3 years to start HRT from when I had my first appointment felt like nothing but mental torture. I was treated like I couldn't think for myself because I have autism and am mentally ill.
I have never thought transition would cure my mental health issues, however, getting on testosterone has helped me immensely. I tried to kill myself multiple times in the months leading up to when I finally got my prescription, because of how horribly and severely it affected my mental health, especially because of how long I had to wait. One of the only reasons I didn't ctb in 2022 is because I found out I'm likely to be able to get one of my surgeries this year.


I still firmly believe I will die by suicide due to my life-long severe mental health issues, etc...
But that doesn't negate the fact that medical transition has a very positive effect on my life and wellbeing.


And yes, I'm well aware that there are people who believe they're trans, and later discover they aren't after all, and that some of these people undergo some level of medical transition, and then regret it later on. The experiences of detransitioners doesn't mean that gender dysphoria isn't real, or that transition is never beneficial. It means that either they made a mistake on their own, or a doctor (or doctors) made a mistake on their part. I am aware it's more nuanced than just this. But my main point is simply that detransitioners existing does not mean that actual trans people exist, and that we absolutely do benefit from undergoing medical transition.


Excuse how rambly (and probably incoherent) my post is. It's something that deeply affects me personally, so I felt a need to respond. Kinda rushed.

Pretty relatable.

Currently i think that my doctor wants to stop my treatment because according to him it contributes to my depression and that it is better for me to go to psychological therapy. For me that is complete nonsense, one of the things that contributes to being in this state is dysphoria, what i need most is transition, not therapy. I mean, therapy with a good therapist can help a little but it's not a magic door to wellness as some people believe. This reminds me of a woman who tried to commit suicide because she had serious financial problems, what they came up with to "help" her is to put her in a psychiatric hospital and leave her with even more debt, just ridiculous.

Note: Sorry for editing multiple times, some things come to my mind after posting, also for typing errors.

 

[weightedrocks]

Pretty relatable.

Currently i think that my doctor wants to stop my treatment because according to him it contributes to my depression and that it is better for me to go to psychological therapy. For me that is complete nonsense, one of the things that contributes to being in this state is dysphoria, what i need most is transition, not therapy. I mean, therapy with a good therapist can help a little but it's not a magic door to wellness as some people believe. This reminds me of a woman who tried to commit suicide because she had serious financial problems, what they came up with to "help" her is to put her in a psychiatric hospital and leave her with even more debt, just ridiculous.

Note: Sorry for editing multiple times, some things come to my mind after posting, also for typing errors.

Yeah overall, especially in red states there's really not a lot of education abt trans people overall and what's going on is only leading trans, gnc, nb, etc, people into worse places than they were. They expect that these bills are just going to make all of us just "normal again" which is so fucking stupid for me to read. Exactly what my dad tried to do by disowning me, like it's gonna "make me get out of this phase" or some shit.

Therapists who specialize in LGBT people are the best bet, but they are pretty rare and overall more expensive.

 

[Moonomyth]

I don't believe it should be accessible to anyone under 16 but 26 is just ridiculous. It's a weird age but I see why they picked 26 because technically your brain doesn't fully develop until around the age of 25.

This bit of 2010s-era received wisdom is a serious oversimplification of human neurological development, and using the "fully developed" model as a basis for significant legal and medical decisions opens up the door to widespread restrictions on a lot of behavior. Here's a decent lay article on the subject:

A Powerful Idea About Our Brains Stormed Pop Culture and Captured Minds. It’s Mostly Bunk.

The strange history of a persistent myth.

slate.com

Remember, a common point-of-view out in the world is that you can't reasonably decide to CTB because your brain is not operating properly. The underlying logic is the same as that for the denial of trans-affirming care. Resist it.

 

[Shu]

Hold up...



Wtf? This is allowed here?
@HermitLonerGuy

 

[Banshee]

This bit of 2010s-era received wisdom is a serious oversimplification of human neurological development, and using the "fully developed" model as a basis for significant legal and medical decisions opens up the door to widespread restrictions on a lot of behavior. Here's a decent lay article on the subject:

A Powerful Idea About Our Brains Stormed Pop Culture and Captured Minds. It’s Mostly Bunk.

The strange history of a persistent myth.

slate.com

Remember, a common point-of-view out in the world is that you can't reasonably decide to CTB because your brain is not operating properly. The underlying logic is the same as that for the denial of trans-affirming care. Resist it.

I get that. But I still think chemically castrating children under 18 should be illegal and punishable by death. If you'd allow that to be done to your child you should be stung up, lashed and sold off as slave labourer for 50 minimum.

 

[Moonomyth]

You have missed the medieval world by a few centuries, best of luck on reattaining it.

 

[Cathy Ames]

And here's another...

Tennessee governor signs laws banning gender-affirming care for minors and restricting drag shows

Republican Gov. Bill Lee signed legislation banning minors from receiving gender-affirming care despite legal threats from civil rights organizations.

www.cbsnews.com

Maybe someone else has posted this already. If so, I apologize and please delete. I'm too sleep-deprived tired to look.

 

[borderline-feline]

There's one logical fallacy that I see constantly with discourse about trans people, mainly from the Matt Walsh types. It's known as the "motte and bailey".

This fallacy begins with a "bailey", which is an outrageous statement that's difficult to defend. For Matt Walsh, it's the idea that medical transition should be illegal. He makes it abundantly clear from how he bitched about Elliot Page (a grown-ass adult) getting top surgery.

When the bailey is questioned or challenged, the arguer retreats to the "motte", which is a modest and easily-defended statement. In this case, the motte is the idea that minors shouldn't be getting transition surgeries, a statement that many trans people agree with.

The problem that comes in with this fallacy is that it involves not only retreating, but conflating the two positions as the same argument. The kickers that very much show that Walsh doesn't care about protecting children are that he's made some very suggestive comments about underage girls and that he supports infant circumcision.

It's funny how people will bitch about an adult man getting top surgery, but sign off on a harmful cosmetic procedure done to infants without an anesthetic. It was never really about protecting children; "think of the children" bullshit just gives them ways of demonizing anyone who criticizes their bigotry.

Good. That's a good age. Better than allowing children whose brains haven't fully developed yet to make such decisions that will affect their entire life. Many grow up to regret those decisions... we've seen.

A 25-year-old isn't a child. I started medically transitioning at age 19. I would've gone through even more immense pain if I'd had to wait until I turned 26, as I'm still not 26 yet.

There are also many people who regret transitioning as young teens and wish they got better care from their therapist/psychologist for their gender dysphoria. instead of challenging the mental illness they just dive right into "gender affirming care". These laws are to protect young people from making life changing decisions. Your brain is still developing in your early 20s . There will be many lawsuits in the future from people who transitioned young and regret it. Its already starting. And it makes no sense to say gender affirming care saves lives when trans people as a group are a very suicidal bunch, compared to other demographics. Its not working. Delusions need push back not validation.

The people who regret transitioning didn't HAVE gender dysphoria in the first place. Only trans people experience gender dysphoria. It's possible for people to misconstrue a different issue as being gender dysphoria, but similar symptoms do not equal the same condition. Transition is the only treatment for gender dysphoria

The thing about brain development is a myth. If you ask any neurologist, then they will tell you exactly that.

Your confusion about the logic of transitioning saving lives is a result of base-rate fallacy. Trans people have an already elevated suicide rate pre-transition, primarily because of gender dysphoria. That rate plummets for trans people who have been able to transition, but because the starting rate was already significantly above the rate for the average person, the post-transition suicide rate is still above the average for the general population.

Gender dysphoria isn't a delusion; it's a recognized neurological condition.

What does this have to do with my comment? I dont enjoy joe's content. Anyways No you dont become trans on your 18th or 25th birthday, but around mid 20s your brain developes. You can make educated decisions. You factor in risks. Serious question Do you think a child can read the insert from the puberty blockers and fully understand what these things do to their body right now or in the long run?
and btw what r we gonna do about the misogyny on this forum ? are we just going to gloss over that?

I'm not gonna say that there's no misogyny on this forum, but why bring it up in a thread that's completely unrelated? There isn't any misogyny in this thread, so it's irrelevant.

 

[color_me_gone]

The right wing has a lot of tricks up their sleeves.

One is, they always name a bill to sound as if the legislation is doing really good things for humanity,
when in actuality, it is 100% the opposite.
For example, the Patriot Act was legislation which trampled all over the Constitution, so it was anything BUT patriotic.
BTW, the right pretend to be loyal supporters of the Constitution, but they don't mind trampling it when convenient for themselves.

Secondly, Right Wing lawmakers always say Protect the People when they pass legislation which takes away people's rights.
Case in point, the discussion in this thread.
This Anti LGBT+ legislation is NOT to protect people.
It targets these people because they do not like these people.
Supposedly, they feel the Bible speaks against this type of thing.
But the right are nothing but a bunch of religious hypocrites.
They only pick and choose which parts of the Bible they want to enforce.
I'm not a religious man, but I find their hypocrisy telling.
Same goes for abortion rights, they supposedly care about unborn children.
They pass legislation to take away a woman's right to choose.
Once the child is born, they are totally against providing it healthcare or any other social program.

 

[BornToFail]

Hi,
the participate in this talk I would need to know the following to adjust what I say:

What is transphobia defined as here under the rules?
Is it transphobic in general to not agree that you can change your gender?

Or is it just transphobic to call them offensive slurs

Sorry if this question is dumb, but people define transphobia as different things sometimes. I do not wish to offend or break the rules here.

 

[Octavia]

I feel like puberty blockers at least should be available to 12+ year olds, or maybe earlier if they are getting into that phase ahead of schedule. That should be the minimum line.

I would have gladly halved my lifespan (throw in loving parents and I would be okay with dividing it by four) if I could go back in time and prevent that first nightmare of a puberty from happening.

 

[WaitingToGo]

I feel like puberty blockers at least should be available to 12+ year olds, or maybe earlier if they are getting into that phase ahead of schedule. That should be the minimum line.

I would have gladly halved my lifespan (throw in loving parents and I would be okay with dividing it by four) if I could go back in time and prevent that first nightmare of a puberty from happening.

Agree with you there. I transitioned in the UK in the 1980's when I was mid 20's. Unfortunately puberty blockers weren't around then and I had to battle the NHS for a couple of years before abandoning it and paying for everything I needed myself. All the NHS provided me with was hormones and a hell of a lot of stress. Also would like to say that I knew I was different around age 6 and knew what I was age 12 and never doubted myself at all between then and when I started my transition. What's happening in the states is just awful.

 

[borderline-feline]

Agree with you there. I transitioned in the UK in the 1980's when I was mid 20's. Unfortunately puberty blockers weren't around then and I had to battle the NHS for a couple of years before abandoning it and paying for everything I needed myself. All the NHS provided me with was hormones and a hell of a lot of stress. Also would like to say that I knew I was different around age 6 and knew what I was age 12 and never doubted myself at all between then and when I started my transition. What's happening in the states is just awful.

I guess what my boyfriend says about the NHS was true. He calls it the "No Help Service"

 

[Yuki K]

I think the legal age for transition should be 18 not 26?! What the heck?! Dysphoria normally sets in at the age of 12-13 for some it may even start from 8-9 years old. But sometimes they can be influenced by media, people or movies. And if they are, then they'll most likely lose interest in the topic around the age of 18 if they do they don't transition and if they don't then they can transition.