Oklahoma tries banning gender care under age 26.

[RainAndSadness]

I've already warned you repeatedly about this in the past and here we have it, the first state now tries banning trans-affirming care for adults under 26 years old. That's a huge problem because with the biological clock ticking, there is a general rule when it comes to transition - the earlier you start, the better the results. That's why for the best results, it's optimal to transition during or right after your puberty because puberty affects the appearance of your entire body and that's what causes gender dysphoria and it also affects your passing in society. That's why puberty blockers are actually so important because once your puberty is completed - no matter what gender you were assigned at birth - it comes with irreversable(!) changes to the body and in the case of trans people, you want to avoid that to ensure a better quality of life and better mental health outcomes. So despite the public opinion, puberty blockers serve a very important role.
Your gender dysphoria and your passing is strongly dependant on the outcome of your transition. So if you're not allowed to transition during your childhood and that's terrible enough, at least transitioning as a young adult is crucial. Banning trans care for adults under 26 years will increase self-harm and the suicide rate within this group.

We need to make one thing clear. The current effort of some states in the US to ban trans-affirming care for children is just the beginning and we can see this will translate into transphobic policies for trans people in general over time. It's all about moving the goal post. These people want to legislate trans people out of society and it starts with legislation directed at trans youth because it's an easy gateway into transphobic policies. And most people who are uneducated and ignorant about the reality of trans issues sadly will support stricter regulation around medical care for trans youth despite the scientifically proven positive effect on trans children[1][2][3][4][5] but it opens the door to way sinister policies. I would go so far and call it trans genocide. And the bill I've mentioned in this thread is just the beginning.

One thing is certain - these bills will increase the suffering of trans people, make them more suicidal and drive them to this forum. Every single state that has plans to introduce such bills and every single individual who supports them has lost the right to complain about this forum. Once again: suicide is the desired outcome of bills criminalizing trans care for adults. We should stop pretending that's not the case. And we need to say that loud and clear and call out the hyposcrisy of "pro-life" Republicans who are the driving force behind such policies.

 

[Banshee]

I don't believe it should be accessible to anyone under 16 but 26 is just ridiculous. It's a weird age but I see why they picked 26 because technically your brain doesn't fully develop until around the age of 25.

 

[WorthlessTrash]

I don't believe it should be accessible to anyone under 16 but 26 is just ridiculous. It's a weird age but I see why they picked 26 because technically your brain doesn't fully develop until around the age of 25.

It absolutely should be accessible to people under 16, provided they didnt come to the conclusion they are trans through pressure, gaslighting or impulse.

Rain is correct that the earlier you transition, the better and passing is extremely important.

 

[RainAndSadness]

I don't believe it should be accessible to anyone under 16 but 26 is just ridiculous. It's a weird age but I see why they picked 26 because technically your brain doesn't fully develop until around the age of 25.

I mean we're essentially talking about medical treatment for a condition, right? I think this should be the decision between a child, their parents and their doctor. I don't believe the state should have a right to interfere in such deeply personal questions. It's very important to recognise that this is a medical option. Imagine if the state criminalised for example cancer treatment for minors, that would be weird, right?

 

[CowsAgainstCapitali]

What the actual fuck!? This crosses a line not crossed before.

26!? Hell no. I don't care what age we decide a person becomes a real adult. 26 is getting married and having kids age. One of the loveliest, most well rounded people I've ever met transitioned at a young age with the support of his family. To put it shortly, the end result was fantastic. I have a teenage cousin who is using HRT so they can become who they need to be. Should they have to wait another 13 years? NO

Anti-trans laws/legislation harms EVERYONE. Suicide rates and unemployment will rise.

I'm pissed beyond words and I want to smash things. Instead I'll be the bigger person and explain as calmly as possible to the many transphobe I encounter why they're wrong.

 

[Worndown]

If they outlawed gravity, nobody would ever fall.
If they outlawed disease, nobody would ever get ill.
Good job Oklahoma! Ignoring reality is a skill, right?

 

[my-end]

This thread doesn't belong here.

 

[RainAndSadness]

This thread doesn't belong here.

Denying trans people life-saving treatments increases the suicide rate. Yes, it does - sadly.

 

[my-end]

No. This is a political debate. Has nothing to do with saving lives as you claim. Leave politics out of it.

 

[Winterreise]

Thanks to Joe Rogan University

 

[my-end]

Good. That's a good age. Better than allowing children whose brains haven't fully developed yet to make such decisions that will affect their entire life. Many grow up to regret those decisions... we've seen.

 

[CowsAgainstCapitali]

No. This is a political debate. Has nothing to do with saving lives as you claim. Leave politics out of it.

Be supportive or go the fuck back to Reddit. Butthurt transphobia isn't welcome here. If you don't like it, read another thread. Don't try to label anything as a "political argument" because literally EVERYTHING is political and interconnected. That's just a cheap, immature way of declaring "I'm uncomfortable with this topic, therefore you must not discuss it!"

 

[WorthlessTrash]

Imagine telling the admin what thread belongs where lol

 

[RainAndSadness]

Be supportive or go the fuck back to Reddit. Butthurt transphobia isn't welcome here. If you don't like it, read another thread. Don't try to label anything as a "political argument" because literally EVERYTHING is political and interconnected. That's just a cheap, immature way of declaring "I'm uncomfortable with this topic, therefore you must not discuss it!"

That's correct. Me picking up meat at the supermarket is a political action. This thread wasn't created for the purpose to debate the benefits of transition when that's already a settled question. I've literally added links debunking the detransition claims in my post and people still come into this thread with the intention to concern troll about "muh detransitioners"...

And most people who are uneducated and ignorant about the reality of trans issues sadly will support stricter regulation around medical care for trans youth despite the scientifically proven positive effect on trans children[1][2][3][4][5] but it opens the door to way sinister policies.

Why do I even bother. It's just laziness from people who aren't affected by transphobic policies.

 

[Winterreise]

There is not much I can do about it. Musk and Rogan are on top. I'm at the very bottom.
There is nothing more American than Transfobia.

 

[LookingOverTheEdge]

I don't pretend to understand much when it comes to this kind of topic. I'm only mid thirties, but I grew up in a world where you didn't really know or hear about this kind of thing. But I've always been of the opinion, that just because it's not something that's affected me, that doesn't mean that it's not something that means the world to someone else.

I do have my own thoughts and feelings on the subject, which mostly boil down to 'live and let live. How's it any of my business? Who am I to argue against it?'

On that basis, to deny people help and support, up to the age of 26!? That's just ludicrous. I might feel differently if we were talking 11 or 12. But 26? If a person can't make an informed decision for them self by that point then when the hell are they allowed to?

This world. It has such potential, but we've gone so, so wrong

 

[Suicidebydeath]

No. This is a political debate. Has nothing to do with saving lives as you claim. Leave politics out of it.

So suicide isn't political? Or is it just the things that you don't like that you deem to be too political for this site.

This is the suicide discussion forum, anything to do with people's reasons for ctb fully belongs here. You're wrong too if you think that the quality of someone's transition would not affect someone's life. Maybe, just maybe let trans people have a voice on the topic of a trans people issue. It's not that difficult to comprehend, especially coming from a forum full of people who don't get a huge say in the overall issue, that of suicide. We're always having our autonomy violated.

What would you say if it became a crime punishable by indefinite solitude to attempt suicide until the age of 100? Would you consider that fair, now that it is an issue that affects you? Which is not even far-fetched, since it has been a crime in the past, it's still a crime in someplaces, and even where it's not a crime you can still get "locked-up" for attempting it. That's the equivalence here, they are taking the most viable period for transition away for people that need it and know that they need it.

I wish to debunk something, people do not go through a magical change at age 25. Someone who wanted to transition their entire life would not suddenly decide against it when they reached 25.

 

[Sakura94]

Something I want to add. UK is very bad for trans/intersex rights, possibly worse, though never been to Southern State so can't say if they allow genetic tests hormone test ect. But a quick google shows Oklahoma (same state as OP) Senator quotes billionaire JK Rowling, just to show the sheer hatred being imported
.
In UK all intersex people have to diagnosed mentally ill in order to receive hormones, the tasks involved are humilating ridiculously stupid and designed to bring suicide on (or bully the person out of it, same thing). This is despite possibly gaining osteo, aging bad, plethora of other bad things due to lack of primary hormone. I could write more on the move to erase intersex people under "DIsorder of sexual development" I see pushed by malicious people (note: not referring to the medical term but the ideology).
When I was teen main website was Susans, which demanded all trans people go to doctor be diagnosed mentally ill in order to proceed. Maybe it was to keep the website legal I don't know. A country run by extremely dangerous people and criminal millionaires/billionaires. UK would probably be hard anti-Vaccine if it didn't realize on some level it would kill off its aging voter base, And even knowing that it still produces anti-vaccine content none-the-less through GBNews, others.

 

[fuzzy-clown]

I wish I could be one of those trans people who transitioned and then lived happier ever after. However, there's no happier ever after for me as I have mental illnesses and autism that affect how good of a life I can live. I have experienced moments of joy as my identified gender, which I am infinitely thankful for. I am sad for the trans people who take their lives before they can do so. Seriously, I look at a photo of myself before facial feminization surgery and I think "thank fuck I don't look like that anymore."

Imagine knowing at a young age that you're trans but not be able to do anything about it until age 26. There are people who commit suicide because they couldn't wait until even 18 so they can transition without the approval of their parents. I am "lucky" that I didn't realize I needed to transition until I was an adult already as I wouldn't have gotten the chance to transition as a teen. It would be so agonizing to know that you're experiencing gender dysphoria and not be able to do anything about it while your body gets more masculine or feminine against your will.

Age restrictions for transitioning are like: fuck you if you're trans, we don't want any small possibility of a cis young person accidentally transitioning.

 

[vultureilse]

governments try to not fuck over queer people for 5 seconds challenge

its fucked up how controlling governments are about peoples bodies this is legit just refusing adults medical treatment. especially when theres such a low regret rate for gender affirming care and the detransition rate is extremely low and a large amount of detransitioners do it only temporarily cause of social reasons

 

[gottablast888]

There are also many people who regret transitioning as young teens and wish they got better care from their therapist/psychologist for their gender dysphoria. instead of challenging the mental illness they just dive right into "gender affirming care". These laws are to protect young people from making life changing decisions. Your brain is still developing in your early 20s . There will be many lawsuits in the future from people who transitioned young and regret it. Its already starting. And it makes no sense to say gender affirming care saves lives when trans people as a group are a very suicidal bunch, compared to other demographics. Its not working. Delusions need push back not validation.

 

[RainAndSadness]

There are also many people who regret transitioning as young teens and wish they got better care from their therapist/psychologist for their gender dysphoria. instead of challenging the mental illness they just dive right into "gender affirming care". These laws are to protect young people from making life changing decisions. Your brain is still developing in your early 20s . There will be many lawsuits in the future from people who transitioned young and regret it. Its already starting. And it makes no sense to say gender affirming care saves lives when trans people as a group are a very suicidal bunch, compared to other demographics. Its not working. Delusions need push back not validation.

And there we have another person who uses dogwhistles to justify transphobic policies in my thread. I think I'll have to give out warnings to people who do that from now on. Here is my problem with you. I have included several sources that debunk your detransition narrative in my opening post. So what you're saying is simply false and you come at me with talking points that have no scientific background.
Here is the result of my observation in this thread. Transphobes don't care about science. That's why they don't read my posts that are carerfully written to debunk the detransition narrative. But you post it anyway because you don't care if you're right or wrong, right? For you it's a game. But for us it's survival and that's the problem here.

Here are all the studies I've included in my opening post.

According to this study, affirming the identity of trans people reduces suicide ideation and suicidal behavior among trans youth.

Chosen Name Use Is Linked to Reduced Depressive Symptoms, Suicidal Ideation, and Suicidal Behavior Among Transgender Youth

This study aimed to examine the relation between chosen name use, as a proxy for youths' gender affirmation in various contexts, and mental health among transgender youth.

www.jahonline.org

According to this study trans children that are validated in their gender identity have normal levels of depression and minimal elevations in anxiety.

Mental Health of Transgender Children Who Are Supported in Their Identities

OBJECTIVE:. Transgender children who have socially transitioned, that is, who identify as the gender “opposite” their natal sex and are supported to live openly as that gender, are increasingly visible in society, yet we know nothing about their mental health. Previous work with children with...

publications.aap.org

According to this study, trans people who receive gender-affirming hormonel treatments have lower rates of dsepression and suicidality among transgender youth.

Association of Gender-Affirming Hormone Therapy With Depression, Thoughts of Suicide, and Attempted Suicide Among Transgender and Nonbinary Youth

There are no large-scale studies examining mental health among transgender and nonbinary youth who receive gender-affirming hormone therapy (GAHT). The purpose of this study is to examine associations among access to GAHT with depression, thoughts of suicide, and attempted suicide among a large...

www.jahonline.org

Most trans adolescents (98%) continued their gender-affirming treatments into adulthood.

Continuation of gender-affirming hormones in transgender people starting puberty suppression in adolescence: a cohort study in the Netherlands

Most participants who started gender-affirming hormones in adolescence continued this treatment into adulthood. The continuation of treatment is reassuring considering the worries that people who started treatment in adolescence might discontinue gender-affirming treatment.

www.thelancet.com

Trans youth who transition have generally a better mental health outcome, social harassement can influence that though.

Timing of Social Transition for Transgender and Gender Diverse Youth, K-12 Harassment, and Adult Mental Health Outcomes

Many transgender and gender diverse (TGD) youth undergo a social transition in which they change their gender expression to align with their gender id…

www.sciencedirect.com

So for you to write your post, in which you claim adults can't make decisions about their transition, you had to ignore every single study I've linked in my thread. But if that's not enough, there is more.

Scientific paper from the UK with 3398 attendes, which concluded a 0.47% transitioned-related regret rate.

https://epath.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Boof-of-abstracts-EPATH2019.pdf!

Study from the Netherlands with young trans people, only 1.9% regret.

DEFINE_ME

Study from Sweden with 767 trans people found 2% of whom expressed regrets.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262734734_An_Analysis_of_All_Applications_for_Sex_Reassignment_Surgery_in_Sweden_1960-2010_Prevalence_Incidence_and_Regrets

Study from the US that found 8% detransitioned, of whom 62% did so for societial, financial or family pressure related reasons.
https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

These are studies from all over the world and they all come to similiar results and find a pretty low detransition rate, ususally around 2%.

And according to this study with over 17'000 participants, 15% detransitioned at some point in their life and 85% of those detransitioned due to external factors. That's pressure from friends, family and coworkers as well as financial reasons. So if you do the math, you have a study with 17'000 participants of whom 2'200 detransitioned at some point in their life and only 350 of those listed an internal factor as the reason they did that. And that's around 2%, that's a tiny minority and fits exactly into the scientific consensus regarding trans people.

Factors Leading to “Detransition” Among Transgender and Gender Diverse People in the United States: A Mixed-Methods Analysis

Purpose: There is a paucity of data regarding transgender and gender diverse (TGD) people who “detransition,” or go back to living as their sex assigned at birth. This study examined reasons for past detransition among TGD people in the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So yeah, I'll have to think for a second if concern trolling about the most vulnerable people in society and questioning the effects of sound medical treatment, and even worse, doing that in a thread that's considered supportive towards trans people, is acceptable conduct in this forum. There is a reason why I put this into suicide discussion. There is a place in this forum to discuss these subjects but you can do that in the off-topic and political subforum. No idea why you people think it's okay to do this in this thread in a forum that has plenty of trans members. And we should also keep in mind that this forum has a strong empathis on individual autonomy as a fundamental right, okay. Since when can adults decide when to end their life but the same people can't decide when transition is the right choice for them? That doesn't make any sense. So do you suggest we should increase the required age to become a member in this forum to 26? That's the logical conclusion of your post here.

 

[western_heart]

These laws are to protect young people from making life changing decisions.

you only need to be 18 to join the military. a life changing and sometimes life destroying decision hundreds of thousands of Americans make each year, and no one is trying to make that illegal. There are so many life changing decisions adults under 26 can make and the purpose of this bill is to target ONE thing in order to satisfy transphobes. What makes medical transition so special that young adults have to be protected from it, and not, say, being protected from going into debt or becoming homeless? Or becoming addicted to alcohol or gambling or prescription drugs? Or getting married at a young age to someone much older?

By the time I was 26 I was doing a whole bunch of life changing things that the Republicans didn't and don't feel the need to protect me from. But if I had wanted to transition, THAT would have been worth using the power of the state to prevent? Really?? What the fuck is wrong with you?

 

[gottablast888]

you only need to be 18 to join the military. a life changing and sometimes life destroying decision hundreds of thousands of Americans make each year, and no one is trying to make that illegal. There are so many life changing decisions adults under 26 can make and the purpose of this bill is to target ONE thing in order to satisfy transphobes. What makes medical transition so special that young adults have to be protected from it, and not, say, being protected from going into debt or becoming homeless? Or becoming addicted to alcohol or gambling or prescription drugs? Or getting married at a young age to someone much older?

By the time I was 26 I was doing a whole bunch of life changing things that the Republicans didn't and don't feel the need to protect me from. But if I had wanted to transition, THAT would have been worth using the power of the state to prevent? Really?? What the fuck is wrong with you?

Fair enough

@RainAndSadness do you ban misogynists from sasu or only people you deem "transphobic" because it effects you personally? Cuz these misogynists are running rampant on your forum. And its making some of us unsafe, and others a little too comfortable

 

[WorthlessTrash]

And there we have another person who uses dogwhistles to justify transphobic policies in my thread. I think I'll have to give out warnings to people who do that from now on. Here is my problem with you. I have included several sources that debunk your detransition narrative in my opening post. So what you're saying is simply false and you come at me with talking points that have no scientific background.
Here is the result of my observation in this thread. Transphobes don't care about science. That's why they don't read my posts that are carerfully written to debunk the detransition narrative. But you post it anyway because you don't care if you're right or wrong, right? For you it's a game. But for us it's survival and that's the problem here.

Here are all the studies I've included in my opening post.

According to this study, affirming the identity of trans people reduces suicide ideation and suicidal behavior among trans youth.

Chosen Name Use Is Linked to Reduced Depressive Symptoms, Suicidal Ideation, and Suicidal Behavior Among Transgender Youth

This study aimed to examine the relation between chosen name use, as a proxy for youths' gender affirmation in various contexts, and mental health among transgender youth.

www.jahonline.org

According to this study trans children that are validated in their gender identity have normal levels of depression and minimal elevations in anxiety.

Mental Health of Transgender Children Who Are Supported in Their Identities

OBJECTIVE:. Transgender children who have socially transitioned, that is, who identify as the gender “opposite” their natal sex and are supported to live openly as that gender, are increasingly visible in society, yet we know nothing about their mental health. Previous work with children with...

publications.aap.org

According to this study, trans people who receive gender-affirming hormonel treatments have lower rates of dsepression and suicidality among transgender youth.

Association of Gender-Affirming Hormone Therapy With Depression, Thoughts of Suicide, and Attempted Suicide Among Transgender and Nonbinary Youth

There are no large-scale studies examining mental health among transgender and nonbinary youth who receive gender-affirming hormone therapy (GAHT). The purpose of this study is to examine associations among access to GAHT with depression, thoughts of suicide, and attempted suicide among a large...

www.jahonline.org

Most trans adolescents (98%) continued their gender-affirming treatments into adulthood.

Continuation of gender-affirming hormones in transgender people starting puberty suppression in adolescence: a cohort study in the Netherlands

Most participants who started gender-affirming hormones in adolescence continued this treatment into adulthood. The continuation of treatment is reassuring considering the worries that people who started treatment in adolescence might discontinue gender-affirming treatment.

www.thelancet.com

Trans youth who transition have generally a better mental health outcome, social harassement can influence that though.

Timing of Social Transition for Transgender and Gender Diverse Youth, K-12 Harassment, and Adult Mental Health Outcomes

Many transgender and gender diverse (TGD) youth undergo a social transition in which they change their gender expression to align with their gender id…

www.sciencedirect.com

So for you to write your post, in which you claim adults can't make decisions about their transition, you had to ignore every single study I've linked in my thread. But if that's not enough, there is more.

Scientific paper from the UK with 3398 attendes, which concluded a 0.47% transitioned-related regret rate.

https://epath.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Boof-of-abstracts-EPATH2019.pdf!

Study from the Netherlands with young trans people, only 1.9% regret.

DEFINE_ME

Study from Sweden with 767 trans people found 2% of whom expressed regrets.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262734734_An_Analysis_of_All_Applications_for_Sex_Reassignment_Surgery_in_Sweden_1960-2010_Prevalence_Incidence_and_Regrets

Study from the US that found 8% detransitioned, of whom 62% did so for societial, financial or family pressure related reasons.
https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

These are studies from all over the world and they all come to similiar results and find a pretty low detransition rate, ususally around 2%.

And according to this study with over 17'000 participants, 15% detransitioned at some point in their life and 85% of those detransitioned due to external factors. That's pressure from friends, family and coworkers as well as financial reasons. So if you do the math, you have a study with 17'000 participants of whom 2'200 detransitioned at some point in their life and only 350 of those listed an internal factor as the reason they did that. And that's around 2%, that's a tiny minority and fits exactly into the scientific consensus regarding trans people.

Factors Leading to “Detransition” Among Transgender and Gender Diverse People in the United States: A Mixed-Methods Analysis

Purpose: There is a paucity of data regarding transgender and gender diverse (TGD) people who “detransition,” or go back to living as their sex assigned at birth. This study examined reasons for past detransition among TGD people in the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So yeah, I'll have to think for a second if concern trolling about the most vulnerable people in society and questioning the effects of sound medical treatment, and even worse, doing that in a thread that's considered supportive towards trans people, is acceptable conduct in this forum. There is a reason why I put this into suicide discussion. There is a place in this forum to discuss these subjects but you can do that in the off-topic and political subforum. No idea why you people think it's okay to do this in this thread in a forum that has plenty of trans members. And we should also keep in mind that this forum has a strong empathis on individual autonomy as a fundamental right, okay. Since when can adults decide when to end their life but the same people can't decide when transition is the right choice for them? That doesn't make any sense. So do you suggest we should increase the required age to become a member in this forum to 26? That's the logical conclusion of your post here.

They're not completely wrong. We even have a user here who was convinced by their therapist to start HRT because their therapist made the assumption they were trans because of their interest in male activities. That being said, HRT and transitioning still shouldn't be banned for young teens.

This is more of an issue with therapists misdiagnosis dysphoria altogether.

What I am trying to say is i still dont agree with HRT/transitioning being banned for young teens.

 

[color_me_gone]

Funny how the right wing claims to be for smaller, less intrusive government,
but that only applies to billionaires, giving them more opportunity to lie and cheat.
They have no problem controlling the most intimate decisions of common people's lives.

 

[Winterreise]

Fair enough

@RainAndSadness do you ban misogynists from sasu or only people you deem "transphobic" because it effects you personally? Cuz these misogynists are running rampant on your forum. And its making some of us unsafe, and others a little too comfortable

What about
Despite what Joe "frontal cortex" rogan tells you. Trans isn't something you become on your 18th or 25th birthday.

 

[gottablast888]

What about
Despite what Joe "frontal cortex" rogan tells you. Trans isn't something you become on your 18th or 25th birthday.

What does this have to do with my comment? I dont enjoy joe's content. Anyways No you dont become trans on your 18th or 25th birthday, but around mid 20s your brain developes. You can make educated decisions. You factor in risks. Serious question Do you think a child can read the insert from the puberty blockers and fully understand what these things do to their body right now or in the long run?
and btw what r we gonna do about the misogyny on this forum ? are we just going to gloss over that?

 

[Suicidebydeath]

. And it makes no sense to say gender affirming care saves lives when trans people as a group are a very suicidal bunch, compared to other demographics. Its not working. Delusions need push back not validation.

There are perhaps a great many reasons why trans people are suicidal, and a lot of them might be to do with how they're treated and how they can transition.

Also that seems really irrelevant to mention that anyway. It's like saying seat belts don't save every life so we shouldn't bother with them.

 

[Sakura94]

They're not completely wrong. We even have a user here who was convinced by their therapist to start HRT because their therapist made the assumption they were trans because of their interest in male activities. That being said, HRT and transitioning still shouldn't be banned for young teens.

This is more of an issue with therapists misdiagnosis dysphoria altogether.

What I am trying to say is i still dont agree with HRT/transitioning being banned for young teens.

I don't know where they are from but out of interest, what's the detrans rate for assigned male at birth only? Is there a figure? The gatekeeping method would seem to side with ftm. I use UK example as it was what I know. Take for example real life experience, it is far more humiliting to suddenly wear dresses, skirts, blouse (whatever) while not on any hormone for years so your body is not even adapting to fit with it. Than ftm who wear jeans, shirt. Now |I'm not sure if this is still the procedure but UK is so stupid and backward it likely does not follow WPATH. Which reminds me this is from NHS brochure: https://remedy.bnssg.icb.nhs.uk/media/3304/hormonal-treatment-london-clinic-mtf-2011.pdf

Using excessive amounts of oestrogen does not improve breast development, indeed there is an enzyme present in the body that converts excess oestrogen back into testosterone and so this may be counterproductive."

This is a complete lie. It is impossible for estrogen to become testosterone. Anyone can look this up and find out. So they justify low dose through fake science. So a person may go through the process, years of getting hormones, to get pathetic treatment. If we move all external cause including intentional-dereliction what's left?

Also after hrt, ftm may then be at a disadvantage. Because if they pass, well I can only point to the hundreds of topics males young and old have on this forum with inceldom, homelessness and so on. So again you may see more detrans through this. I'm trying hard not to offend anyone saying that but we are all using the same forum and these seem obvious to me.