Discussion [NSFL/Read only if you're REALLY willing to CTB and need something that reduces your fear of death] Just how many of you are antinatalists here?

[falloutcarter13]

I'm so glad @GoodPersonEffed @Emily_Numb and @falloutcarter13 already pointed out the contradictions, hypocrisy, and especially the high horse stance seeking validation. My jimmies were rustled a bit after I read this post yesterday seeing as I'm a "retard" breeder and I almost made an emotional based response that would have certainly resulted in a ban, but I bit my tongue, reminded myself that I'm not on 4chan, and moved on. While I recognise that the philosophy mostly focuses on consent, there is always the fact that they focus on inevitable suffering as if they've found no value in life, but they clearly value sharing the toxic philosophy and all the likes that ensue. These threads always result in ego fluffing circle jerks, and the OP will likely abadon ship now the they've been btfo with logic based response. They got their likes. Why is this even in suicide discussion anyway? Antinatalists...
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Its a fatal mix of discovering some substandard philosophy and being totally pissed off at the same time

 

[Deardaddy]

Yes the world is sick. It doesn't matter if it's 10% of people being used as experiment while others do not.this is Frankenstein experiment world ,while people think they are the masters and could do anything they want to own people , cannibals, animals locked eaten , slaughtered eaten . Dog meat cat meat . Horrifying creation

 

[falloutcarter13]

Yes the world is sick. It doesn't matter if it's 10% of people being used as experiment while others do not.this is Frankenstein experiment world ,while people think they are the masters and could do anything they want to own people , cannibals, animals locked eaten , slaughtered eaten . Dog meat cat meat . Horrifying creation

Wtf

 

[TotallyIsolated]

I don't understand what the people who think that life is so worth living are doing here?

 

[Lost in a Dream]

I don't understand what the people who think that life is so worth living are doing here?

I'm thinking they are here because their lives became miserable, even though they were once happy and healthy. I think from their perspective, life can be worth living, but it might not be for them at this moment, therefore it's worth living for others (I am guessing). From that POV, I can see how creating a new life would be viewed in a more positive light.

 

[cyberlordsumit]

I do understand. I've read the OP and this quote several times. The flaw in the reasoning returns, and it's not about desire. The flaw is in the infinite amount of children and animals that have never been born.

"Should we grieve them? No." I agree. Grief is about losing something. If it does not exist, it cannot be lost and therefore grieved. But then a again, a mother may grieve for what she could not attain, an unborn child she desires to give birth to. However, the child is not floating around in a formless state just waiting to slip in when the sperm and egg meet. It does not exist at all. That is non-existence -- it has not come into being. Therefore it cannot even be envied, because there is no being to envy. It is not blissful nor free of desire because it has no form or consciousness. It is not even free, because it does not exist. The mother imagines the unborn child, desires it, grieves the loss of what she cannot pour her love into. That is what grief is, the loss of the object into which one pours love. The imagined unborn child becomes an object to the mind, but that does not mean it exists.

"They don't even desire positive things..." By calling them "they," by giving them, as the Buddha would say, name-and-form, it is saying they exist, that they experience, that they function. Therefore they can potentially experience not desiring. Something that does not exist does none of those things, has no form, and has no experience, cannot be named or labeled because there is nothing to attach the name or label to. Which may have been why the introduction of the non-number zero into mathematics was so revolutionary, because it made the non-existent come into awareness, and become something to which a label can adhere. That does not mean, though, that it has a form or an experience. Does it have potential? If it does, then it exists in some way, and therefore is not truly zero or nothingness. Can it be envied if it does not exist? Only because it has been given a label and therefore exists. Then it is no longer zero or nothing. It is something -- a product of the imagination, with no consciousness or form, and no experience, the same as the unborn child which a mother imagines, and the infinite number of unborn children and animals you imagine and envy. Envy is a function of desire, and it seems to me that the object of your desire is zero, nothingness that is an object of the imagination that can be labeled and takes on form, function, and experience.

I'm not being an asshole here. You asked for an opinion of your analogy, and about non-existence being preferable to existence. The objects to which you attach non-existence, unborn children and animals, are not objects, they have no form, experience, or state of existence, and therefore cannot be superior nor inferior, nor the object of envy as they are not objects. They are in a state of pre-existence, have potential, and can become, therefore they have a state and in some way do exist. They have and are composed of kinetic energy, potential. Therefore they are matter. I almost said they are inherently not objects, but that would be an agreement that "they," these labeled-yet-non-existent ones in some way exist, because only something that exists can have an inherent condition.

If, having existed, you find it is superior to cease existing, that I get. Suffering ends. Desire ends. But for something that never existed, it never began nor ended, and has no potential to do either. Therefore, imo, "they" cannot provide support for your argument regarding preference.

Your opinion is flawed. also the reference to zero. You compared, so it exists. So doesn't that mean your opinion made it exist?

Anyhow, The OP is trying to say, why bring something into existence from non existence in the first place?
What if you were a psychopath and you wanted to have a child just because you want to torture it? Does your non existence theory mean that you getting a Child is justified ?

take it objectively and conceptually, OP is very right, We bring things into existence and give them desires. The Children. And then they ask 'why'. it's a shame indeed.

 

[Racon]

I have read David Benatar and Thomas Ligotti in the past, as well as two or three other authors who are considered antinatalist. I sympathise with the viewpoint, though I have had plenty of disagreements with the community. I would have thought it would be more popular on a forum for suicidal people. I am fairly sure every antinatalist I have spoken to was depressed at the very least.

 

[KiraLittleOwl]

I am an open antinatalist but I don't push my views on people.

 

[cyberlordsumit]

I am an open antinatalist but I don't push my views on people.

you are right. i guess we all just emphasize on what we believe is right.
just Absurdism everywhere. Albert Camus haha

 

[Ren Elsie Jewelria]

I am an antinatalist and efilist.

 

[TimeToBiteTheDust]

I am antinatalist. Babyphobic. Stop bringing humans to this world. I can't understand the people who choose to have children.

 

[Wayfaerer]

I am antinatalist. Babyphobic. Stop bringing humans to this world. I can't understand the people who choose to have children.

I know this may sound totally crazy to antinatalists, but believe it or not, not everyone hates their lives! Isn't that just so bizarre?

There is only one thing that had brought me to the brink of suicide, and without it, I'd be riding the highest high of my life right now and would not be thinking of suicide at all.

 

[cyberlordsumit]

Antinatalism, Absurdism, Nihilism... combine them and you'll see how meaningless everything is. Just absurd. Ones people start CTBing the others would get the thoughts provoked sooner or later and find the same thing... it'll go on and on and one day no one will want to live anymore
But that's just My opinion.

 

[TimeToBiteTheDust]

I know this may sound totally crazy to antinatalists, but believe it or not, not everyone hates their lives! Isn't that just so bizarre?

There is only one thing that had brought me to the brink of suicide, and without it, I'd be riding the highest high of my life right now and would not be thinking of suicide at all.

Humans should stop reproducing for the sake of our planet

 

[Wayfaerer]

Humans should stop reproducing for the sake of our planet

The planet doesn't care what we do, it's a lot stronger than we are. Even then, overpopulation is a myth especially in the first world where we have below population replacement. if we are to curb humanity's impact on the planet than we should cut down our funding of NGO's as they're doing more harm than good in the long run.

Antinatalism, Absurdism, Nihilism... combine them and you'll see how meaningless everything is. Just absurd. Ones people start CTBing the others would get the thoughts provoked sooner or later and find the same thing... it'll go on and on and one day no one will want to live anymore
But that's just My opinion.

True, it's almost hysterial how meaningless it all is, but with that being said, meaninglessness doesn't equal bad or wrong. It only means that there is no overarching meaning to it all. I know life is meaningless but I wouldn't mind living it's just that my specific life circumstances has brought me to desperation.

I generally agree with the basic idea.
Even if, on balance, the probability of being a 'happy', contented human who is glad it had a shot at life, is greater than being a human who wishes it hadn't been born because of suffering, etc, it still does not morally justify bringing a human into existence. Because the possibility of suffering due to any number of factors is of greater importance than any happiness that existence can bring. I would even go so far as to say that even if 98% of people have 'decent' lives and never want to ctb, the fact that 2% of people have miserable lives outweighs and makes irrelevant a greater amount of global happiness. Suffering has an existential density which is vastly more 'important' than the density of happiness.

I don't follow this line of thinking. Consider this, you'd have a much greater chance (49/50) of landing a life that is at bare minimum tolerable than not, so you'd actually be doing them a favor by bringing them into existence. If it doesn't work out, then you could always correct that mistake by CTB. If you can leave whenever you want, then there is really nothing keeping anybody here against their will.

 

[mrj]

[QUOTE="Wayfaerer, post: 850083, member: 10022"
I don't follow this line of thinking. Consider this, you'd have a much greater chance (49/50) of landing a life that is at bare minimum tolerable than not, so you'd actually be doing them a favor by bringing them into existence. If it doesn't work out, then you could always correct that mistake by CTB. If you can leave whenever you want, then there is really keeping nobody here against their will.
[/QUOTE]

I am kind of sympathetic to antinatalist stuff, but wouldnt go as far as certain other people in this post ^^
But it really would be interesting to see how different the perspective on antinatalism would be, if there was something like an "official&easy" way to leave...

 

[esse_est_percipi]

be doing them a favor by bringing them into existence

Not sure I agree here. You can't be doing anybody a favor by bringing them into existence, since there was nobody to be doing a favor to before they existed.
It's not as if there are disembodied, pre-existing people waiting around for a sperm to fertilize an egg, who gain something by being born. It's Kant's argument that existence cannot be the predicate of a subject, that existence can't be added to a subject that doesn't already exist to give it one more quality (and therefore doing it a favor).

you could always correct that mistake by CTB. If you can leave whenever you want

True, but it's not always that easy. ctb seems so hard for a lot of people :(

 

[Wayfaerer]

Not sure I agree here. You can't be doing anybody a favor by bringing them into existence, since there was nobody to be doing a favor to before they existed.

Sure you could, you ever hear those people who say "I am so glad to be alive!" and similar such things. If they were never born, they wouldn't be able to experience their lives. Sure, if they were never born they wouldn't care about being not born but now that they are, they get to relish in all of their experiences!

True, but it's not always that easy. ctb seems so hard for a lot of people :(

Well, if only N were easier to get...

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Ones people start CTBing the others would get the thoughts provoked sooner or later and find the same thing.. it'll go on and on and one day no one will want to live anymore

I'm not sure. The will to life is strong.
Most people want to live and will always find ways to justify the supposed inherent goodness of existence.
Once life gets started by chemical interactions, it's difficult to stop, like the cascading spiral in the image, except life (in the general sense of all organic existence) goes on indefinitely, until the death of the sun or heat death of universe.

 

[Wayfaerer]

Most people want to live and will always find ways to justify the supposed inherent goodness of existence.

I'm not saying that existences itself is inherently good because it's not of course. I'm only saying that if people who are responsible and educated want to reproduce, then I think they can do so safely without jeopardizing their offspring's well-being. Hell, even people who grew up in non-ideal homes can still turn things around for themselves some of the time.

I really think that due to our depression, we have this confirmation bias towards looking for things that makes life shitty instead of things that we like and are nice about it. In my individual case, the good things don't make up for the bad, so that's why I'm here. I can easily see how a tiny change here and there would've made me want to live.

Is the predator's enjoyment lesser than the prey's misery? Perhaps, but it is not as uniform as gravity for instance.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

I really think that due to our depression, we have this confirmation bias towards looking for things that makes life shitty instead of things that we like and are nice about it.

Is the predator's enjoyment lesser than the prey's misery? Perhaps, but it is not as uniform as gravity for instance.

Pretty much this, yes.

 

[Wayfaerer]

Pretty much this, yes.

Despite having said all that, in a hypothetical eternal return, I would be a complete antinatalist because you'd be condemning people into an eternal prison. In such an instance, I would also be a hardcore hedonist too, even though that is not my base philosophy. Everything that I believe in philosophically is tied to whatever metaphysics I subscribe to.

 

[Starseedchip]

I am an antinatalist and it's so nice to see this topic brought up here. I'm hardcore button pusher so I believe all procreation is immoral and don't like to rank. However anyone on this site who believes in procreation is the most selfish of all. It only fuels my depression further to see people who know the misery of life willfully inflict it on others.

 

[Wayfaerer]

I bit my tongue, reminded myself that I'm not on 4chan, and moved on.

That's good advice. I do the same as well.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

"Human beings are so destructive. I sometimes think we're a kind of plague, that will scrub the earth clean. We destroy things so well that I sometimes think, maybe that's our function. Maybe every few eons, some animal comes along that kills off the rest of the world, clears the decks, and lets evolution proceed to its next phase." -Ian Malcolm, The Lost World by Michael Crichton

If this is true, then humanity breeding and suffocating life out is actually what nature wants.

Besides, while I think logistically anti-natalism raises a few decent points, it kind of ignores the fact that humans are still animals themselves who literally cannot control their biological urges. Sure, some people can but the majority of the population simply can't because that's how they came to exist in the first place. I mean really, talking people down for being into procreation is no different than being a religious fundamentalist preaching abstinence and expecting people to listen because if they don't, they're evil. It's condescending and more likely to get people to retaliate by doing the thing you don't want. Then again, anti-natalism is nowhere near as established as any religion but I really hope it doesn't become that way because otherwise everyone would just become the next Thanos.

 

[Rabhen]

There are no words that can capture how badly I want to not exist.

I have not been able to conflate the desperation to no longer exist that consumes my every thought.

 

[Journeytoletgo]

The best option is to never been born in my case

 

[hopelessgirl]

If you are not familiar with the philosophy (there is a reason why it's so underground. The governments and such want more children to have more work slaves), antinatalism is the belief, that procreation (giving birth) is always wrong and morally unjustifiable. There are many, many reasons for that, one being that the non-existent cannot consent to being born or that when you're giving birth, you're essentialy gambling with another person's life, as these children might end up in places just like sanctionedsuicide. Life is full of suffering, and one has to be a massive retard to bring another life into this hellhole. There's so much shit that might happen to that child, such as bullying, sexual/abuse, genetic conditions, depression & suicidal ideation, cancer, migraine and so on and so on. Efilism is basically antinatalism but it extends to all species, not just humans.

However, one thing that fully convinced me about efilism, is the following hypothetical situation I was thinking of. Suppose you are a content being, with absolutely no desires, in a higher plane of existence (nirvana?), just existing. Since you have unlimited freetime, you could do anything in that world, but why would you? You don't have the desire to feel anything positive, you don't have the desire to experience, perceive, or to overcome boredom, since boredom implies that you have the desire for entertainment, for stimulation. And that's a thing that buddhism teaches. That desires are the root of ALL suffering, and boy oh boy were these guys ahead of their fucking time (compared to all the other western religions and philosophies that were only a projection of the individuals desires so it was basically a construct of bullshit). You want to eat that delicious looking cake? Desire to consume. You want to get into the college of your dreams? Desire. Someone captured you and tortures you now? Desire to end pain.
And on top of that, literally everything positive in life can be reduced down to nothing but dopamine. A fucking. Chemical.

You know who has no desires? The non-existent ones. They are pretty much in nirvana, cos that's what nothingness is. No desire, no suffering. And yet all these fucking breeders don't understand my extremely rational reasoning. Yet they will continue to breed, and keep on making more children who will suffer for no greater goal, just like you and me. What a horror.

People ask all these fucking questions, like "What's the purpose of life?", "Why are we here?", "What's the origin of physical mass?" when in reality, the only question that matters, is

"To be or not be."

That's it. That's the final question. There's no more reason to get an answer to all these other questions, bc they only serve one primitive purpose: To satisfy our curiosity, our meaningless desire for answers.

But I'm actually happy I found this philosophy, bc it makes CTB for me tremendously more easier. I no longer cling onto my dreams, they pretty much... dissolved, just like I will. So if you're like me and pretty confident into getting the fuck outta here, hope this helps, for I am Promortalistic 4 Life.
So what is your opinion of antinatalism or my analogy about non-existence being inherently favorable to existence? Do you think procreation is fucked and completely stupid and unneccessary, as the unborn never had a desire to live to begin with?

It's like you wrote my mind. Thank you.

 

[Depressed Cat]

I am an antinatalist. I have not procreated and I will not procreate and bring another human being into an existence filled with pain & suffering followed by certain death.

I personally view procreation as an act of condemning an unfortunate soul into a life imprisonment followed by the death penalty.

It takes a certain level of intelligence to be able to think of, and follow a philosophy that goes against the biological & social urge to procreate. Human beings are unique in the animal kingdom that they have the ability and the means necessary to have sex without procreating. Other animals have neither the ability nor the means to do so (on their own, without human intervention).

If it takes depression and other mental (and/or physical) illnesses to turn one into an antinatalist, then so be it.

How I wish my parents were antinatalists. Sigh!