No one will ever convince me that we, humans, are in control of our lives

[paredler]

The world is way bigger than us, we were passively created by other people, we didn't even choose to be born here. The time, place, genetics, parents and circumstances you were born in already determine the pool of choices you can pick from, and then come other setbacks that also influence our choice. Our "choices" in life are more dictated by the environment and the history of the world than we actually would like to admit.

 

[wisteria3]

I personally do not believe in free will :) Like ultimately I don't think there is any difference between our physical body and our consciousness, so all our decisions are just governed by the laws of physics. I think free will is an illusion (although it's complicated when you start trying to define what "you" means). But this point of view allows me to have a ton of empathy for people. If someone had a traumatic brain injury going from state A to B and started behaving differently, we wouldn't blame them. If someone's brain turned out the same as state B but not from a traumatic brain injury, just due to life/circumstance, why should we blame them?

 

[LaughingGoat]

Like most things, it's not a binary. Most things you aren't in control of like you described. There are a few things, which outside of major untreated disorders, you are in control of: your thoughts and actions. Absolutely, external factors often influence those two things, especially if not aware of the link, however I see it as my personal responsibility to be intentional in those two areas without blaming external factors.

 

[paredler]

Like most things, it's not a binary. Most things you aren't in control of like you described. There are a few things, which outside of major untreated disorders, you are in control of: your thoughts and actions. Absolutely, external factors often influence those two things, especially if not aware of the link, however I see it as my personal responsibility to be intentional in those two areas without blaming external factors.

You can't really control your thoughts and actions because they are a result of genetics and environment. I don't believe there is a "self" that sits inside your body and controls what to think, feel and do. External factors often dictate the pool of choices you have and determine what you are going to choose. If you want to work out and lift weights but the pain it entails defeats you, you are not likely to persevere in this activity. If you want to be a good student but the stuff you read is too boring to you, it'll be really hard for you to push through the boredom. I'm saying that there are setbacks that will force you to choose things different from what you originally planned.

 

[Forever Sleep]

True, we get stuck with what we're given. I don't completely accept that we have zero control though. I just think that theory tends to justify really appalling acts like murder, rape, child molesting. That the perpetrator had no control- it was their destiny to hurt someone. I don't think that's true.

I expect a proportion of people must be tormented with horrendous desires and yet, they don't act on them. Maybe you could argue they genetically had stronger will power to resist or, their upbringing gave them a deeply moral sense of right and wrong. I'm still not convinced though. I think it's important that we take responsibility for our actions to an extent. It's too lazy to just blame all our faults on everything else.

Plus, there are rags to riches stories. Maybe they landed hard working, entrepreneur genes- I don't know. I guess that's possible but, I still think they deserve admiration to an extent.

As a model as well, I suppose I don't exactly like what we used to get taught in schools. That- so long as you work hard, you'll do well. It's a pretty nasty shock to find out it doesn't always work out that way when you've worked your arse off. Still- I think the probability of doing well is going to be higher if you work hard. I don't think ideas like- it's not your fault you're at a disadvantage to everyone else so- why bother type of thing? Is all that helpful. Someone who just gives up or turns criminal obviously isn't going to succeed because they didn't even bother to try. I guess we just have to work with what we've been given but I agree- it isn't a level playing field and luck can be kind of random too. Still- you can't expect to win the lottery unless you buy a ticket. You do have to participate in life to be in with a chance of getting any success.

 

[paredler]

It's too lazy to just blame all our faults on everything else.

I think that the "self" that is supposed to control other parts of our personality simply doesn't exist, so I don't think it's lazy at all to blame our faults in everything else, since we are completely automatically respond to everything that happens to us. We are programmed to act in a certain way and wired to think this and feel that.

 

[Otaku]

And i hate it!
I would love to see more people go against their government!
But it's like we only are giving a spoon to fight with..

 

[avoid]

''No one will ever convince me'' is a good example of placing, what I believe to be, unnecessary restrictions upon yourself based on your personal believes. If you believe that you're not in control of your life [yourself] then you won't be able to be in control of yourself until you start to believe that you can be in control. The mind is a powerful thing (sorry for the cliché).

I agree that our choices are limited. That your genetics and upbringing essentially define you as a person, thus influence and perhaps limit your decision-making. But if I go to an ice cream parlor where they limit your choices from 50 flavors down to only chocolate and vanilla, then I'll still be able to choose from these two options. In other words, I'm in control of myself even when my options are limited. Chocolate!

But if you're certain that the restrictions places upon you—time, place, generics, parents, circumstances, setbacks—result in the inability to be in control of your live, then what about changing some of these restrictions? You can't change the past, but the future can be a different story. I understand it's difficult to change any such restrictions but I don't think it's impossible. Similar to how committing suicide is a choice, uprooting your current life in search for a better one is a choice too.

This was just my personal view—I may be wrong. I don't expect you to change your perception of the human brain works, similarly to how I don't change my mind easily after reading an internet comment.

But it's like we only are giving a spoon to fight with..

Spoiler: the spoon killer

 

[EyesOfNight]

Absolutely agree. Every single action I have ever done or will do is already determined. Wether I make a "choice" or not is predetermined and wether I succeed is also predetermined. It's just playing out. Like dice falling from our hands that have yet to land.
The funny part about this that it still feels very much like being able to actually choose, to decide where our lives will lead.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I agree. We aren't really in control and we aren't free unlike what other people want to say

 

[paredler]

''No one will ever convince me'' is a good example of placing, what I believe to be, unnecessary restrictions upon yourself based on your personal believes. If you believe that you're not in control of your life [yourself] then you won't be able to be in control of yourself until you start to believe that you can be in control. The mind is a powerful thing (sorry for the cliché).

I agree that our choices are limited. That your genetics and upbringing essentially define you as a person, thus influence and perhaps limit your decision-making. But if I go to an ice cream parlor where they limit your choices from 50 flavors down to only chocolate and vanilla, then I'll still be able to choose from these two options. In other words, I'm in control of myself even when my options are limited. Chocolate!

But if you're certain that the restrictions places upon you—time, place, generics, parents, circumstances, setbacks—result in the inability to be in control of your live, then what about changing some of these restrictions? You can't change the past, but the future can be a different story. I understand it's difficult to change any such restrictions but I don't think it's impossible. Similar to how committing suicide is a choice, uprooting your current life in search for a better one is a choice too.

This was just my personal view—I may be wrong. I don't expect you to change your perception of the human brain works, similarly to how I don't change my mind easily after reading an internet comment.

Spoiler: the spoon killer

Let me ask you a question.

What if I choose to go to the gym and lift weights and then the pain defeats me so I choose to quit and never return because I can't handle the pain? Is that a real choice?

The only way to convince me otherwise is to see for myself being able to change something I never knew was possible, and even then I'd argue I had some mental advantage over other people.

 

[EyesOfNight]

I just think that theory tends to justify really appalling acts like murder, rape, child molesting. That the perpetrator had no control- it was their destiny to hurt someone.

It can't be used like this. I mean it can but that has nothing to do with the theory itself.
The idea that a person has a destiny (not yet realised) is nothing more than a delusion. However wether that person will have this delusion and will use it to justify their actions is already determined.
It's impossible to use this theory to change life because there is no possibility of change. It can be used to help understand and accept the past at best.
If a person gets hit by a car at a specific crossing it's because there were factors/reasons why that car and that person were there, and the factors/reasons had reasons for why they existed and affected those two people, and those reasons as well, and so forth. It's just consequences stacking on top of each other.

Nevermind, I reached a limit to how much I can process this and can't articulate myself anymore.

 

[LaughingGoat]

You can't really control your thoughts and actions because they are a result of genetics and environment. I don't believe there is a "self" that sits inside your body and controls what to think, feel and do. External factors often dictate the pool of choices you have and determine what you are going to choose. If you want to work out and lift weights but the pain it entails defeats you, you are not likely to persevere in this activity. If you want to be a good student but the stuff you read is too boring to you, it'll be really hard for you to push through the boredom. I'm saying that there are setbacks that will force you to choose things different from what you originally planned.

Everything you just said proves my point, that there are factors that make things "likely", implying the choice is not set in stone. There is a difference between influence of genetics & environment and pre-determinism of choice. If what you are saying was true, then people wouldn't change their minds about how they live, they would simply have a preset decision and stick with it like an instinct. Someone who is an active alcoholic for a while with a genetic predisposition to alcoholism and is around other drinkers, would never make the choice to change their habit. There are countless studies delving into what factors into behavior change, which is just the extension of thought change, so I would need to see evidence of your claim that thoughts and actions are uncontrollable.

 

[avoid]

What if I choose to go to the gym and lift weights and then the pain defeats me so I choose to quit and never return because I can't handle the pain? Is that a real choice?

This is a specific question. My first thought is that if you experience any pain (not muscle soreness) while exercising (or specifically weight lifting), then you should contact the gym instructor or a personal trainer. If you still experience pain despite proper guidance then contact your general practitioner who may be able to refer you to a physiotherapist or a medical worker in the field of body movements.

But I assume you ask the question in the spirit of choice: continue or quit if you can't handle untreatable pain when exercising. So if the medical route is not an option then it depends on how you deal with the pain. It's difficult for me to judge another person's pain threshold, and I'll assume we're not talking about muscle soreness which is meant to be temporary pain. If I were the one who experiences pain while lifting weights then I would try various things before I consider quitting. For example, [1] I won't lift weights and will do other exercises that suit me better and don't result in unbearable pain. Or [2] I'll modify the exercises by, for example, instead of lifting 20kg weights 10 times, lifting 2kg weights 100 times or until the pain starts to surface. I can take breaks to let the pain subside too. Or [3] I'll seek an alternative to the gym that give the same result as lifting weights or exercising in general. For example, a sports club, fitness class, etc. Although participating in such activities may result in the same unbearable pain—I don't know.

Having said that, I'd like to strike it off the record because I was simply describing how I would deal with the situation as described in your question. My real answer is that I disagree with phrasing the question as a choice between continue and quit if pain defeats you. I recognize that certain people can't do certain things. Like in your example, if you can't lift weights due to severe untreatable pain then it's not really a choice of whether to continue or quit. It's a force majeure. Similarly, I don't expect a blind person to make the choice of whether to drive a motor vehicle either. Sometimes there is no choice. My point of my previous post is that you've been dealt a hand of cards in life and you'll be able to choose how to play them (ice cream parlor example).

The only way to convince me otherwise is to see for myself being able to change something I never knew was possible, and even then I'd argue I had some mental advantage over other people.

This seems to be a catch 22, a deadlock. If I understand you correctly, you believe that you can't control your own live. And that you can't make choices: everything is already determined. Therefore, you won't try something that you think, or know, you won't be able to do. But if you never do something that you previous thought was impossible then you'll never change your view on whether you're able to control your own live. This actually confirms the thread title "no one will ever convince me that...".

I have a question for you, assuming you've read this post in its entirely. Is it already determined—written in stone—that you disagree with my point of view, or are you able to choose whether to agree, disagree or partially (dis)agree with my view in this very moment? If it's the former then you were right all along. If it's the latter then there's no longer a catch 22.

Sorry for the length of my post.

Edit: I understand the philosophical thought behind "everything we choose to do is determine by genetics, upbringing, environment and other factors." If the statement is true then even disagreeing with this statement supports the statement. That the combination of my genetics, upbringing and environment is the reason for disagreeing with the statement.

But I don't treat philosophical thoughts as fact, as you may have seen by the way I (try to) phrase my sentences as my personal views on the subject. It can be beneficial to think about how external factors influence our decision-making and perhaps, in the process, you learn something new about yourself. It's just that I don't want an idea or concept or philosophical thought to dictate how I live my life. That is not to say whether it's true or false—I don't know, or at least I don't know of any substantial proof (e.g. peer-viewed medical studies) that support either side.

 

[paredler]

Sorry for the length of my post.

No worries

This is a specific question. My first thought is that if you experience any pain (not muscle soreness) while exercising (or specifically weight lifting), then you should contact the gym instructor or a personal trainer. If you still experience pain despite proper guidance then contact your general practitioner who may be able to refer you to a physiotherapist or a medical worker in the field of body movements.

But I assume you ask the question in the spirit of choice: continue or quit if you can't handle untreatable pain when exercising. So if the medical route is not an option then it depends on how you deal with the pain. It's difficult for me to judge another person's pain threshold, and I'll assume we're not talking about muscle soreness which is meant to be temporary pain. If I were the one who experiences pain while lifting weights then I would try various things before I consider quitting. For example, [1] I won't lift weights and will do other exercises that suit me better and don't result in unbearable pain. Or [2] I'll modify the exercises by, for example, instead of lifting 20kg weights 10 times, lifting 2kg weights 100 times or until the pain starts to surface. I can take breaks to let the pain subside too. Or [3] I'll seek an alternative to the gym that give the same result as lifting weights or exercising in general. For example, a sports club, fitness class, etc. Although participating in such activities may result in the same unbearable pain—I don't know.

I suffer from bulging disk, which makes exercising very hard, and I suffer from psychological pain every time I work out. I tried easier exercising sessions for disabled people on a wheelchair and couldn't even hold down that session for even 10 minutes. If I want to be muscular, this option is blocked for me. You don't turn muscular by dancing Zumba. Swimming can work but it won';t make me muscular enough. I've been thinking about resting 10 minutes between sets, but that means I will be stuck at the gym for 3 hours at least and I don't have that much spare time.

This seems to be a catch 22, a deadlock. If I understand you correctly, you believe that you can't control your own live. And that you can't make choices: everything is already determined. Therefore, you won't try something that you think, or know, you won't be able to do. But if you never do something that you previous thought was impossible then you'll never change your view on whether you're able to control your own live. This actually confirms the thread title "no one will ever convince me that..

I do try lots of stuff. I always try to challenge that belief that I'm not in control over something by making projects but I'm never able to finish them. It took me 5 years to finish a 3 year History degree because writing a thesis was super challenging for me. I actually only finished my degree because some professors were generous enough to pass me on my thesis even though it was a complete failure. I tried learning math to pass a perparatory class for computer science, but failed because I couldn't keep up with the class pace. I tried to learn to code but had to quit for the same reason. I tried to learn how to sew but had to quit for the same reason. I'm a slow learner and learning has to be tailored to my needs, but no place will ever agree to accommodate me, so I'm basically screwed.

 

[UKscotty]

I think we do have free will, I can generally decide to do what I want.

As long as we operate within regular norms and consent, I can pretty do whatever.

If I want more freedom and money, I can choose to learn more and make more money to be able to travel etc. If I sit around at home I can't then complain I have no freedom. I can't expect society to allow me to travel round free of charge.

I do not believe in destiny, God or fate. I am the only one accountable for what I do.

My problem is my depression makes me lazy so I cannot get out to take the action.

 

[paredler]

I think we do have free will, I can generally decide to do what I want.

As long as we operate within regular norms and consent, I can pretty do whatever.

If I want more freedom and money, I can choose to learn more and make more money to be able to travel etc. If I sit around at home I can't then complain I have no freedom. I can't expect society to allow me to travel round free of charge.

I do not believe in destiny, God or fate. I am the only one accountable for what I do.

My problem is my depression makes me lazy so I cannot get out to take the action.

If you're in control of your life, you can get over your depression, get what you want and conquer the field. Don't blame depression for your own failures if you believe you can do whatever you want.