New way of looking at “death”. Might change your view of suicide.

[youareforgiven]

Hi there,

I would like to contribute my knowledge on consciousness and death and my experience with it. I think it is relatively important for you to read this, because this might change your view on death/suicide.

There are 2 dominant views in science right now that try to provide a answer to explain the universe. Materialism (where everything comes out of matter) and Idealism (where everything comes out of consciousness).

If materialism is true then the brain produces consciousness and that would mean that if you shut down the brain, you shut down consciousness. Therefore, if you should down consciousness there is no more experience.

If idealism is true then consciousness produced the brain. This would mean that shutting down the brain would not directly mean that it shuts down consciousness. In fact, shutting down the brain would lead to even more consciousness as the brain is then a limitation on consciousness.

Idealism seems like a bizarre worldview, but a lot of meditation teachings are saying this for over thousands of years: The universe is a perceptual thing, not a "real" thing that exists outside of our consciousness. A universe outside of our consciousness can never be proven and therefore matter is a assumption, not consciousness.

I think science is catching up with the idealism view. Recent studies have shown that people who take certain drugs have a massive DECREASE in brain activity while reporting the most beautiful / enlighting experience they have ever experienced.
This could not be possible if materialism is true, because then u would expect a increase in brain activity instead of a decrease in activity. These are not my words, but from a PHD philosopher who thinks idealism is true.

The reason why I think you should consider the idealism worldview is because if that is true then "death" does not really exist. This would mean that if you commit suicide from like hanging, there is going to be a moment where you are going to be aware of yourself. You are prob going to enter a near death like experience where you exit the body and see yourself hanging.
That would also mean that it is possible that you can experience something from the moment you "lose" consciousness and the actual stopping of the heart.

This seems bad news, but it isn't. Near death experience survivors report mostly of the time that they felt nothing but unconditional love, feel like coming home and mostly do not remember there earth lives there.

I am not saying that above is the truth or is going to happen, but I think you deserve to know this alternative which actually explains a lot. It might change your view on death.

 

[Pluto]

This is a very good summary. The likes of Prof. Donald Hoffman are on the cutting edge of advanced theories of consciousness that will ultimately resolve questions which have divided humanity's scientific and religious minds for millennia. Anyone with an open mind can already do their own research and draw their own conclusions.

It is common in NDE reports for 'dead' individuals to overhear conversations of living people, including those happening in other rooms, while their body is flatlining in ER and technically dead. They can later recall those conversations accurately, which has been verified by (stunned) physicians and others. Such an event is simply impossible under the materialist model, demonstrating that even memory is stored in consciousness rather than the brain. Dogmatic materialists are left to ignore or deny these events in order to maintain their worldview, but truth will always win out in the end.

I will say, however, that most if not all suicidal people are in this state for reasons other than philosophical views. Suicidal ideation may give rise to some cynical and bleak views of the world, but we should not confuse cause and effect. Therefore, what has value here is not the intellectual debates around the origin (if any) of consciousness, as stimulating as they may be.

Deeper research into NDEs goes far beyond merely confirming that consciousness is timeless. Over the thousands if not millions of NDE events, consensuses emerge which have profound implications. One common insight is that people choose the circumstances of their own birth for various reasons, volunteering to have that memory wiped upon being born (with rare exceptions). It is also very common for NDEers to be blocked from accessing the other side and sent back to the body because it is 'not your time'.

The implication is that souls come here with a particular mission. Often it's something to do with learning something, or experiencing something, or serving some function for the benefit of others. From this perspective, an individual's suicide could be 1) no problem, a part of the plan all along, or 2) a 'mistake' that will lead to a need to retry the mission and potentially go through yet more anguish. To me, that is truly the million-dollar question.

 

[AShipinthedark]

The implication is that souls come here with a particular mission. Often it's something to do with learning something, or experiencing something, or serving some function for the benefit of others. From this perspective, an individual's suicide could be 1) no problem, a part of the plan all along, or 2) a 'mistake' that will lead to a need to retry the mission and potentially go through yet more anguish. To me, that is truly the million-dollar question.

If I might expand on this. I have no scientific or logical basis for my information and knowledge...it came to me in a dream... It was told to me that the primary reason we experience the universe and existence is so that we can return to the hub (seat of god or whatever), reinject our causal and mental "wuuweewuu" into it, and continue to self propagate ourselves as individuals and the universe, and then get run through the cycle all over again!

This is why intent is key, and why I think Suicide is a "sin". Your injecting a self destructive program into the universe. NOW, intent is key, and it could be argued to some totally not being named asshole gods out there, that killing ones self may not necessarily be self destructive. Sometimes you may not even realize you are killing yourself! Such is the case of my recent late ex. I believe she was so bogged down by her hallucinations and delusions that she just...didn't know she was actually burning alive...or you could realize that your physical existence is a measurable burden on the resources of others and your like, ok I'm not destroying myself, I'm being frugal with my resource consumption for my descendants.

...that's it...that's the expansion...

 

[Pluto]

continue to self propagate ourselves as individuals and the universe, and then get run through the cycle all over again!

This is my understanding, too. The first spiritual book I ever read, Conversations with God, described this eternal cycle of coming and going from God, and it is also somewhat consistent with the 'cycle of rebirth' of Eastern traditions. Knowing that it is eternal and inescapable, it appears utterly depressing from a human perspective. But the fact that there is choice, and there is the possibility of experiencing very elated states, reduces this somewhat. Earth is a particularly shitty planet and is by no means the only one.

This is why intent is key, and why I think Suicide is a "sin". Your injecting a self destructive program into the universe.

Sorry to hear about your ex. I can confirm from NDE studies that people whose deaths are associated with mental illness are treated especially kindly on the other side. They are fully healed of all their pain and not judged. As for suicide being a sin, I think that intention is key, as you say.

One common insight is that people choose the circumstances of their own birth for various reasons, volunteering to have that memory wiped upon being born (with rare exceptions). It is also very common for NDEers to be blocked from accessing the other side and sent back to the body because it is 'not your time'.

Funny you should mention that. (Yes, I'm talking to myself.) I just checked the NDERF website after writing this and there happens to be a brand new report from a suicide NDE. Credit to Kyah from NDERF:

The first experience happened after a suicide attempt. I was found at least 18 hours after a drug overdose. I had anoxic brain injury, a seizure and cardiac arrest, and dialysis for 3 weeks from kidneys failing.

I came out of my body and was on the ceiling. I looked at a girl in a hospital bed and felt sorry for her. I sondered what had happened that was so bad in her life that made her so sick. I did not recognize it as me. I saw a very bright, blinding light outside the window. I thought, 'I can't walk out of the window, so there must be a different way to a tunnel?' So I floated down the hospital hallways. I couldn't find the light. I pass by the room I left and saw doctors were going in. It was busy, so I tried the other way in the hallway. I decided my soul was lost. This made perfect sense, since I felt lost on earth with no sense of purpose.

I had a telepathic conversation with God. It was dark and I couldn't see him. It was pitch black and I was not in any body. I asked to leave earth. He said that I was only halfway through. I replied that if the second half is like the first half of my life, that I'm out. He told me that I purposely chose as many hardships as possible in order to deeply connect with so many people and lift them up. I didn't remember choosing; but then I remembered thinking that when I was little. I asked about my future to find out if my life was it worth it or would it just be the absence of misfortune because that was not worth living. I wanted an influential role in life, to fight for justice in a very comfortable salary and have complete happiness. God told me that I needed to get through another couple hard years and then things would shift rapidly. He promised there would be no reason to come back via suicide. I told him I was very mad, I didn't believe him, and that he would see me very soon. He told me to please just give my decision a couple years.

I'm not sure if I woke up then, but I did have a few strange, lucid dreams that I thought were real. When I did wake up, I was so angry I came back. Later, I had an incredible relationship with my deceased grandmother and then dad when he died a year later. I made a complete recovery from 20 years of a severe eating disorder in a very short time. It is now like I woke up a different person.

Another event, I had a spiritual kundalini awakening experience. It felt like an NDE because my deceased dad entered my body and told me that my purpose on earth is 'to serve'. I told my mom about it and she said he said that was his mission and he had told her that. He just never told me that until after his death.

Did you seem to be aware of things going on elsewhere? Yes, and the facts have been checked out

 

[PrematureBurial]

This whole thing is just a paraphrasing of the mind-body problem, all cogsci seems to be doing is rehashing ideas that have been around since at least the 17th century.

 

[obligatoryshackles]

My main problem with the argument would be that brain activity decreasing with psychedelic experiences actually makes sense - the sensory perception of the material world (brain scans visual/auditory input for many details to spot potential dangers, etc.) and the normal flow of thought and emotion are far more complex than the relatively simple sensory input and emotional euphoria of a psychedelic experience where little thought happens even though it feels more vivid.