new-study-antidepressants-significantly-raise-risk-suicide-treatment-depression-adults/

[Shamana]

Pretty damning really. Giving drugs that increase the suicide in risk in well the patients most vulnerable to suicide? It wouldn't be accepted to give drugs that increase the risk of a heart attack in patients with heart disease so why are the standards so fucked up in psychiatry?

New study: antidepressants significantly raise the risk of suicide in the treatment of depression for adults -

Adults who start treatment with antidepressants for depression are 2.5 times more likely to attempt suicide when compared to placebo, according to new research published today in the journal Psychotherapy and Psychosomatics. The study found that approximately 1 in every 200 people who start...

cepuk.org

 

[Meretlein]

They view us as less than human.

 

[LogicalConclusion]

"Dr James Davies, co-founder of CEP, says, 'It is known that antidepressants increase the risk of suicide among young people and adolescents, and for this reason their use is restricted among these patient groups."

Gee, thanks mom for putting me on loads of psychotropic medications when I was a suicidal child because of her abuse/abuse she allowed, which made me more suicidal, which made her angrier, which led to more medications...yeah, these things aren't a problem at all. Pretty well explains why I was re-hospitalized so many times after being put on new antidepressants while in the hospital. It's even more fun when they call you "attention-seeking" for re-presenting at the hospital suicidal when the medications they gave you made you worse

 

[Shamana]

"Dr James Davies, co-founder of CEP, says, 'It is known that antidepressants increase the risk of suicide among young people and adolescents, and for this reason their use is restricted among these patient groups."

Gee, thanks mom for putting me on loads of psychotropic medications when I was a suicidal child because of her abuse/abuse she allowed, which made me more suicidal, which made her angrier, which led to more medications...yeah, these things aren't a problem at all. Pretty well explains why I was re-hospitalized so many times after being put on new antidepressants while in the hospital. It's even more fun when they call you "attention-seeking" for re-presenting at the hospital suicidal when the medications they gave you made you worse

Yeah my GP and Psychiatrist had no problem prescribing me anti-depressants despite the black box warning that they increase suicide. When you're a psyc patient you feel kind of subhuman.

 

[LifeIsNotFun]

Is anyone shocked by Big Pharma? I'm not.

 

[Oblivion Lover]

I'm not sure if it's related, but my first suicide attempt was after I took antidepressants for two months and then switched to a stronger class of medication because the first wasn't having any effect. I've already stopped taking them for three months or more and I'm still suicidal, so either the effects are chronic or it I would still be suicidal even without taking those meds.

 

[Shamana]

I'm not sure if it's related, but my first suicide attempt was after I took antidepressants for two months and then switched to a stronger class of medication because the first wasn't having any effect. I've already stopped taking them for three months or more and I'm still suicidal, so either the effects are chronic or it I would still be suicidal even without taking those meds.

Kind of depends on whether you have clear identifiable cause of suicidal thoughts also and if you had clear suicidal thoughts before.


There can be a lot of anxiety and stress associated with AD's just from thinking what the fuck is this doing to my brain and body and is it reversable?

 

[TimeToDie]

@Shamana Do MAOIs increase suicidal ideation? I think you had commented the other day that MAOIs were the only AD class worth trying. I would agree that Nardil & Parnate are worth trying, even though they failed me. Also, I wonder if TCAs increase suicidality. I'm well aware that TCAs were leading suicide drugs back in the day when they were in common use.

The only med that I've found to cause suicidal ideation is Abilify, which also causes substantial weight gain (30# in 3 months) even though when I took it in 2004 the drug company was still lying their ass off saying that it doesn't effect weight.

 

[Shamana]

@Shamana Do MAOIs increase suicidal ideation? I think you had commented the other day that MAOIs were the only AD class worth trying. I would agree that Nardil & Parnate are worth trying, even though they failed me. Also, I wonder if TCAs increase suicidality. I'm well aware that TCAs were leading suicide drugs back in the day when they were in common use.

The only med that I've found to cause suicidal ideation is Abilify, which also causes substantial weight gain (30# in 3 months) even though when I took it in 2004 the drug company was still lying their ass off saying that it doesn't effect weight.

I honestly don't know. Selegine snorted/intranasal 1.25 mg is the only antidepressant i've tried that's been worth the bother. Increases dopamine, testosterone, increases boost from exercise, increases sex drive in some men unlike most AD's that just emotionally blunt you and castrate you. Selegine can cause insomnia though which is most negative side effect I got from it, but if you can treat that, then it's only AD i've personally tried so that I would recommend. You don't get withdrawels either when you stop. No brain zaps and all that shit.

Edit: according to wiki Selegine carries the black box warning for increased suicide ideation in people under 25, but I don't know if that's because they witnessed with selegine or they just apply it to all anti-depressants.

 

[TimeToDie]

Selegine snorted/intranasal 1.25 mg is the only antidepressant i've tried that's been worth the bother. Increases dopamine, testosterone, increases boost from exercise, increases sex drive in some men unlike most AD's that just emotionally blunt you and castrate you.

Have you tried Nardil & Parnate? Both have sexual side effects.

 

[RM5998]

I'm wondering if this is a correlation, not causation. People who commit suicide are more likely to have been on antidepressants than people who don't. The study might be looking at the data from the wrong angle.

 

[TimeToDie]

I'm wondering if this is a correlation, not causation. People who commit suicide are more likely to have been on antidepressants than people who don't. The study might be looking at the data from the wrong angle.

That was my first thought too, but the study says "Adults who start treatment with antidepressants for depression are 2.5 times more likely to attempt suicide when compared to placebo.

 

[deathenvoy]

I'm wondering if this is a correlation, not causation. People who commit suicide are more likely to have been on antidepressants than people who don't. The study might be looking at the data from the wrong angle.

Studies always compare group of people with depression that are on antidepressants and that are on placebo. People with depression that don't take AD are less suicidal.
From my experience I was much more suicidal on paroxetine than without it.

 

[RM5998]

@TimeToDie @deathenvoy welp, missed that part...

Interesting... this seems to be using FDA archive data here. However, there seems to be no info on when these patients committed suicide. The paper itself admits that the cause is probably an adverse reaction to the drug/withdrawal, but still uses the phrase 'caused by ADs'. There seem to be a bunch of other factors related to the treatment schedule that could be the real causes, rather than the drug itself.

 

[cornflowerblue]

@TimeToDie @deathenvoy welp, missed that part...

Interesting... this seems to be using FDA archive data here. However, there seems to be no info on when these patients committed suicide. The paper itself admits that the cause is probably an adverse reaction to the drug/withdrawal, but still uses the phrase 'caused by ADs'. There seem to be a bunch of other factors related to the treatment schedule that could be the real causes, rather than the drug itself.

It was within the first 4 weeks or after stopping, not when stabilized. The rate for antidepressant suicide was 0.1164% and placebo was 0.0397%. Attempts were higher but still both under 1%. Knowing those numbers changes how big of a deal the "2.5 times higher" risk is. The study is open access and linked at the bottom of the CDC page: https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/501215

 

[RM5998]

It was within the first 4 weeks or after stopping, not when stabilized. The rate for antidepressant suicide was 0.1164% and placebo was 0.0397%. Attempts were higher but still both under 1%. Knowing those numbers changes how big of a deal the "2.5 times higher" risk is. The study is open access and linked at the bottom of the CDC page: https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/501215

Wasn't that quoted as the periods when most suicides can occur? It didn't specify that that was the period they tested. Neither have they stated how the groups of patients ended up after the treatment.

Even then, considering that the data is essentially collating a bunch of tests that have been conducted with sample sizes that seem too small to be usable, the result seems suspect. The errors of each individual sample won't exactly cancel out, right?

 

[cornflowerblue]

Wasn't that quoted as the periods when most suicides can occur? It didn't specify that that was the period they tested. Neither have they stated how the groups of patients ended up after the treatment.

Even then, considering that the data is essentially collating a bunch of tests that have been conducted with sample sizes that seem too small to be usable, the result seems suspect. The errors of each individual sample won't exactly cancel out, right?

It's not even a lit review or study, it's a letter to the editor. This is missing a LOT of information and isn't representing the data very accurately either. Example of how statistical significance isn't always related to clinical validity. If you play with the numbers enough, almost anything becomes statistically significant.

 

[RM5998]

It's not even a lit review or study, it's a letter to the editor. This is missing a LOT of information and isn't representing the data very accurately either. Example of how statistical significance isn't always related to clinical validity. If you play with the numbers enough, almost anything becomes statistically significant.

Also, I just noticed that there's no control group data... this is literally some random people trying out their R packages for the first time and making a fuss about it.

 

[cornflowerblue]

Wasn't that quoted as the periods when most suicides can occur? It didn't specify that that was the period they tested. Neither have they stated how the groups of patients ended up after the treatment.

Even then, considering that the data is essentially collating a bunch of tests that have been conducted with sample sizes that seem too small to be usable, the result seems suspect. The errors of each individual sample won't exactly cancel out, right?

The populations studied in the FDA trials also don't reflect the populations using antidepressants. The trials have so many exclusionary factors (no comorbid diagnoses allowed) and participants tend to be selected from hospitals or belong to a lower socioeconomic status. The trials also indicated that SSRIs help for moderate/severe depression, but in real life GPs prescribe them for mild. Lots and lots of issues here.

Also, I just noticed that there's no control group data... this is literally some random people trying out their R packages for the first time and making a fuss about it.

I have plenty of qualms with the FDA, don't get me wrong. But that doesn't mean anything anti-FDA is automatically exempt from scrutiny

 

[RM5998]

The populations studied in the FDA trials also don't reflect the populations using antidepressants. The trials have so many exclusionary factors (no comorbid diagnoses allowed) and participants tend to be selected from hospitals or belong to a lower socioeconomic status. The trials also indicated that SSRIs help for moderate/severe depression, but in real life GPs prescribe them for mild. Lots and lots of issues here.

I have plenty of qualms with the FDA, don't get me wrong. But that doesn't mean anything anti-FDA is automatically exempt from scrutiny

So there's a chance that they also ignored the possibility of undiagnosed comorbid disorders worsening due to a certain drug. Or side-effects that led to suicide. Jeez, this gets worse every second you think about it.

 

[cornflowerblue]

So there's a chance that they also ignored the possibility of undiagnosed comorbid disorders worsening due to a certain drug. Or side-effects that led to suicide. Jeez, this gets worse every second you think about it.

Lol yeah it's pretty awful. If you're bored and want to play with the numbers yourself, you could look up the data. The authors just used public info that can be found on the FDA site without even making a special request.