Need advice on suicide methods in England

[Smilla]

It's not just the train driver though. It's the passengers too.

Nah. They will go about their business as usual, and will give them something to gossip about at the dinner table.

 

[Smilla]

Yes, but there isn't a method which can definitely cause zero trauma. To insist that someone abandons their method in favour of one 30% less traumatic for others is not a strong argument tbh and l won't judge anyone in a negative way for choosing the train as a method, and this is often done on here.

My cousin flung herself in front of a train 10 years ago. Not a bit of judgement from me, only sadness that she was so young (16), and so desperate.

 

[Thoughtforms]

Train is not a good idea.

This is a regular argument against using the train as a method and whilst it's not without merit l struggle to understand why it's always put forward with such ferocity; whichever method one chooses, someone is likely to discover an unpleasant corpse and perhaps have some trauma to cope with. Whilst the possible impact upon the driver is a negative when considering this method l consider it a bit peculiar that only this method elicits such a full-throated discouragement compared to other methods which are similarly unpleasant for the "average Joe" who have to deal with the aftermath.

because coming across a corpse is different from being partly responsible for someone's death. The fear as you're about to impact. Seeing it take place.

 

[Chinaski]

Train is not a good idea.

because coming across a corpse is different from being partly responsible for someone's death. The fear as you're about to impact. Seeing it take place.

Do l have to literally repeat the same argument several times here, or what? Train is a fine idea because it often works. It loses points in its favour because there is the possibility that it may cause significant trauma to another, but there is no sliding scale of acceptable trauma imo; it's bizarre how, for example, the minimum wage hotel cleaner's trauma upon finding a blue SN corpse is not worth mentioning at all, but the train driver's trauma renders this method selfish.

I'm not saying "train is great, train drivers can fuck off". I'm saying the hand-wringing about train driver torment is perhaps a tad performative and irrational and the negative judgement passed upon those who choose train as their method is harsh when you consider that literally every other trauma upon others is tolerated.

 

[TiredHorse]

I'm saying the hand-wringing about train driver torment is perhaps a tad performative and irrational and the negative judgement passed upon those who choose train as their method is harsh when you consider that literally every other trauma upon others is tolerated.

I'd argue that there's an enormous difference in inflicted trauma between someone unexpectedly finding a corpse and someone being an immediate accessory to the death.

 

[Chinaski]

I'd argue that there's an enormous difference in inflicted trauma between someone unexpectedly finding a corpse and someone being an immediate accessory to the death.

And I'd argue that trauma is trauma; jumping off a building is fine because the guy sweeping you off the pavement wasn't an indirect accessory, yet choosing a train makes someone a selfish prick is an odd logic imo. If someone wishes to ctb by train they shouldn't be judged for choosing a supposedly harmful method when all methods have potential to cause trauma, l really struggle to see how this is proving to be difficult to understand.

 

[Othermind]

And I'd argue that trauma is trauma; jumping off a building is fine because the guy sweeping you off the pavement wasn't an indirect accessory, yet choosing a train makes someone a selfish prick is an odd logic imo.

This is a strawman, nobody here is saying that.
Of course ctb is selfish to some degree, and of course the poor bastard finding your corpse will definitely be traumatized, but the notion that "trauma is trauma" is patently absurd. You're basically saying that someone running over a hedgehog by accident and a soldier who fought in the trenches in WW1 went through the same exact thing.
Yes, there's going to be some psychological discomfort no matter what, but there's a difference between the shock of the harrowing sight of a dead body and giving someone full blown PTSD.

 

[Chinaski]

This is a strawman, nobody here is saying that....

...You're basically saying that someone running over a hedgehog by accident and a soldier who fought in the trenches in WW1 went through the same exact thing.

"This is a strawman, nobody here is saying that, patently absurd...btw you're definitely saying something about hedgehogs and the great war, absolutely solid post here"

 

[Othermind]

"This is a strawman, nobody here is saying that, patently absurd...btw you're definitely saying something about hedgehogs and the great war, absolutely solid post here"

You did say that "trauma is trauma", the implicit being that the degree is meaningless, if it wasn't, you need to do a better job of articulating yourself.

 

[TiredHorse]

l really struggle to see how this is proving to be difficult to understand.

If I place myself in the shoes of someone finding a corpse, or of a train driver running someone down, I would be far more traumatized by being in the latter position. Hosing down a sidewalk after a jumper hit --hell, even having a jumper hit the ground nearby!-- would not be pleasant, but I would not be directly involved in causing a death, and for me that would make all the difference.

 

[onewayroad]

And I'd argue that trauma is trauma; jumping off a building is fine because the guy sweeping you off the pavement wasn't an indirect accessory, yet choosing a train makes someone a selfish prick is an odd logic imo. If someone wishes to ctb by train they shouldn't be judged for choosing a supposedly harmful method when all methods have potential to cause trauma, l really struggle to see how this is proving to be difficult to understand.

If the driver of a train experiences the same trauma from seeing your corpse get shredded as, say, a cop finding your already dead body, what about suicide by cop?

Do you think the trauma is the same for a cop to kick down your door to find your already dead body as it is for a cop to be tricked into murdering you themselves?

If you do, can you explain your line of reasoning as this makes no sense to me at all.

 

[Chinaski]

You did say that "trauma is trauma", the implicit being that the degree is meaningless, if it wasn't, you need to do a better job of articulating yourself.

I have quite clearly stated, without making peculiar reference to hedgehogs or trench warfare, that literally all methods have potential for trauma, it's impossible to gauge how traumatised someone may be in the aftermath, be they chambermaid, passer-by, train driver, whatever; all individuals choosing their ctb method will have to consider this and it's absolutely fair enough if people still consider the positive aspects of the train method to outweigh the trauma caused to the bystander. Trauma very much IS trauma to the individual suffering it, and this is sadly a consequence of practically all methods.

 

[Chinaski]

If the driver of a train experiences the same trauma from seeing your corpse get shredded as, say, a cop finding your already dead body, what about suicide by cop?

Do you think the trauma is the same for a cop to kick down your door to find your already dead body as it is for a cop to be tricked into murdering you themselves?

If you do, can you explain your line of reasoning as this makes no sense to me at all.

What the fuck have cops got to do with anything? Cops take that job to be given a firearm and are aware they may have to use it. Are you asking me to expand on how traumatised a cop may feel having been "tricked" into killing someone? For real?

 

[onewayroad]

What the fuck have cops got to do with anything? Cops take that job to be given a firearm and are aware they may have to use it. Are you asking me to expand on how traumatised a cop may feel having been "tricked" into killing someone? For real?

Woah man, relax. I was just asking if you felt a cop killing someone who wasn't a threat and a train driver killing someone who jumped in front of their train and a cop finding an already dead suicide were all the same in terms of trauma, because I don't think they are. And maybe you could change my mind.

Basically just trying to get a clear picture of your opinion buddy, no need to get cranky.

 

[Hunter]

There's nothing "performative" about potentially caring how your method of death might be perceived, received, or potentially affect another person mentally. All of us here struggle with varying levels of guilt around the decision to die because of how people are impacted.

Having said that though, I understand how a lack of finances/resources can drive someone to choose this method as well as other more accessible means like hanging or jumping. I have seen countless videos of people in developing countries jumping in front of trains; I don't know what was going through the minds of people before they did it but I imagine many would have opted for a less public/more peaceful method if they'd had access. It says a lot about the level of desperation they must have felt to have gone for such a stigmatized method like train or public jumping.

OP, I hope you can come to a decision for a method that feels most comfortable for you.

 

[Chinaski]

Fair enough.

To us, the outsider, certain things appear less traumatic than others. To the individual suffering the trauma, this perspective is invalid. Trauma is generally experienced at 100% to the sufferer and is not relative to the views of the external observer. Whatever trauma your ctb causes could be potentially experienced at 100% by that individual, be they train driver or not, regardless of anyone's own personal CTB Trauma League Table.

If people wish to suicide by cop, that's also fine by me, though again not the method I'd choose as our cops don't carry guns and instead taser and beat you to death.

Edit: this was in reply to onewayroad, before l noticed there'd been a further reply in between.

 

[Chinaski]

There's nothing "performative" about potentially caring how your method of death might be perceived, received, or potentially affect another person mentally. All of us here struggle with varying levels of guilt around the decision to die because of how people are impacted.

Having said that though, I understand how a lack of finances/resources can drive someone to choose this method as well as other more accessible means like hanging or jumping. I have seen countless videos of people in developing countries jumping in front of trains; I don't know what was going through the minds of people before they did it but I imagine many would have opted for a less public/more peaceful method if they'd had access. It says a lot about the level of desperation they must have felt to have gone for such a stigmatized method like train or public jumping.

OP, I hope you can come to a decision for a method that feels most comfortable for you.

There is something very performative about openly casting negative judgement upon those who choose train as a ctb method. As stated repeatedly, all methods carry a balance of consideration upon how the deed will impact others, not just this one.

 

[Hunter]

Woah man, relax. I was just asking if you felt a cop killing someone who wasn't a threat and a train driver killing someone who jumped in front of their train and a cop finding an already dead suicide were all the same in terms of trauma, because I don't think they are. And maybe you could change my mind.

Basically just trying to get a clear picture of your opinion buddy, no need to get cranky.

I second this comment. I do believe watching someone die in front of you *may* be a different type of trauma than seeing a corpse. It's hard to pull apart the level of severity in either experience for the person. I'm not a trauma expert and I'd venture to say many here aren't.

I can only surmise that being an unsuspecting bystander watching a so-called "unnatural" death occur in front of your eyes and feeling totally helpless to stop it is a unique experience - whether it's watching someone jump from a tall building or jump in front of a train. It's a bit strange. I mean people watch their loved ones pass in front of them in a hospital bed all the time but not always in a violent or high impact death.

 

[MexicanTravels]

Fair enough.

To us, the outsider, certain things appear less traumatic than others. To the individual suffering the trauma, this perspective is invalid. Trauma is generally experienced at 100% to the sufferer and is not relative to the views of the external observer. Whatever trauma your ctb causes could be potentially experienced at 100% by that individual, be they train driver or not, regardless of anyone's own personal CTB Trauma League Table.

If people wish to suicide by cop, that's also fine by me, though again not the method I'd choose as our cops don't carry guns and instead taser and beat you to death.

Personally speaking, if I were forced to kill somebody vs. stumble upon a dead person, my reaction would be starkly different. The first would definitely traumatize me while the other would just make me feel bad. Trauma itself might be felt at 100% but the road leading to it does depend on many factors including how somebody decides to CTB. If the train driver is religious and follows the 10 Commandments, it could lead to an existential and moral crisis inside of them. If they're a deontologist, the same thing could happen. I feel like people are just trying to point out that there is a difference FOR THEM, which is something that people who want to attempt to CTB by train should consider if they're thinking critically. Everyone has their own ethical code, and users are just following their own by pointing this out.

 

[Chinaski]

Everyone has their own ethical code, and users are just following their own by pointing this out.

Some people have very strong ethical codes around ctb full stop, for example someone could feasibly argue that all suicides will ultimately leave somebody suffering as a result, is therefore a selfish act and should be strongly discouraged at all times is their own "ethical code"; this does not mean it's an argument that would be popular or welcome on this forum.

Similarly, people explicitly saying "do not ctb via train" because of the trauma it can cause the driver, as has occurred in this thread and elsewhere, is passing a similar judgement on those who choose this method, and imo this shouldn't be expressed in the way it frequently is here.

If people were to state their own feelings about this, or any method in accordance with their own "ethical code" that's fair enough. There are methods l would not choose for that reason too. I think there is a big difference between stating your own personal misgivings about a method and outrightly saying "DO NOT DO THIS, THINK OF THE DRIVER" as has happened in a post in this very thread.

 

[Hunter]

There is something very performative about openly casting negative judgement upon those who choose train as a ctb method. As stated repeatedly, all methods carry a balance of consideration upon how the deed will impact others, not just this one.

You said that "the handwringing around train driver torment was performative" - wasn't sure if you meant the person ctb'ing or other people here commenting on the train method. I guess I misunderstood.

 

[MexicanTravels]

Some people have very strong ethical codes around ctb full stop, for example someone could feasibly argue that all suicides will ultimately leave somebody suffering as a result, is therefore a selfish act and should be strongly discouraged at all times is their own "ethical code"; this does not mean it's an argument that would be popular or welcome on this forum.

Well, I feel like most users are utilitarians here and one could argue that the ethical foundation of this forum is utilitarian in nature. They gauge their methods by comparing their own suffering to the suffering they will cause and find that their death will result in less suffering to all parties involved if they use a certain method, which is why some people prefer less gruesome methods. You could argue that suffering can't be measured, but (here's university philosophy seeping in) according to Kant's notion of common sense, we can collectively measure it.

Similarly, people explicitly saying "do not ctb via train" because of the trauma it can cause the driver, as has occurred in this thread and elsewhere, is passing a similar judgement on those who choose this method, and imo this shouldn't be expressed in the way it frequently is here.

Again, the ethical scale they're using is utilitarian. Would we welcome somebody who wants to CTB by strapping a bomb to themselves and entering a public library? What about a standoff with cops during a school shooting? Users are saying "DO NOT DO THIS" because the scale tips away from reducing suffering and into causing more suffering.

There was a thread on here that was shut down about 3-D printed guns because the mods and administrators determined that the dangers related to this method were greater than the benefits they provided. To CTB via train follows a similar logic.

 

[Darrenloses]

I'd rather have an unknown person deal with the trauma of witnessing my corpse than a family member or friend, train sounds excellent!

 

[Chinaski]

Well, I feel like most users are utilitarians here and one could argue that the ethical foundation of this forum is utilitarian in nature. They gauge their methods by comparing their own suffering to the suffering they will cause and find that their death will result in less suffering to all parties involved if they use a certain method, which is why some people prefer less gruesome methods. You could argue that suffering can't be measured, but (here's university philosophy seeping in) according to Kant's notion of common sense, we can collectively measure it.



Again, the ethical scale they're using is utilitarian. Would we welcome somebody who wants to CTB by strapping a bomb to themselves and entering a public library? What about a standoff with cops during a school shooting? Users are saying "DO NOT DO THIS" because the scale tips away from reducing suffering and into causing more suffering.

There was a thread on here that was shut down about 3-D printed guns because the mods and administrators determined that the dangers related to this method were greater than the benefits they provided. To CTB via train follows a similar logic.

The first paragraph is very flowery but doesn't progress the discussion any.

The second paragraph uses two examples involving homicide which, and here's entry level criminal law seeping in, is not the same thing as suicide.

"Users are saying "DO NOT DO THIS" because the scale tips away from reducing suffering and into causing more suffering" could, and is, used by those who argue against suicide according to their own ethical code, as I've already explained above. This is often the perspective of those who are anti suicide, full stop. Most of us who are not anti suicide do acknowledge that someone will ultimately suffer to some degree as a result of our passing. Yes, most of us try to mitigate this somehow; some people may therefore prefer a train as a method as it may be the only way to avoid being discovered by a loved one, for example. Others may simply not give a toss either way. Whatever, the point remains that stating "l couldn't use this method as my utilitarian ethical code forbids me to traumatise the driver, but each to their own" is certainly preferable to stating DO NOT DO THIS SELFISH DEED on an actual suicide forum.

The final paragraph doesn't add up either. There is clearly no link between the staff here being responsible enough to realise that a post advertising the procurement of a dangerous weapon is best removed, and this discussion on train as a suicide method.

 

[MexicanTravels]

The first paragraph is very flowery but doesn't progress the discussion any.

The second paragraph uses two examples involving homicide which, and here's entry level criminal law seeping in, is not the same thing as suicide.

"Users are saying "DO NOT DO THIS" because the scale tips away from reducing suffering and into causing more suffering" could, and is, used by those who argue against suicide according to their own ethical code, as I've already explained above. This is often the perspective of those who are anti suicide, full stop. Most of us who are not anti suicide do acknowledge that someone will ultimately suffer to some degree as a result of our passing. Yes, most of us try to mitigate this somehow; some people may therefore prefer a train as a method as it may be the only way to avoid being discovered by a loved one, for example. Others may simply not give a toss either way. Whatever, the point remains that stating "l couldn't use this method as my utilitarian ethical code forbids me to traumatise the driver, but each to their own" is certainly preferable to stating DO NOT DO THIS SELFISH DEED on an actual suicide forum.

The final paragraph doesn't add up either. There is clearly no link between the staff here being responsible enough to realise that a post advertising the procurement of a dangerous weapon is best removed, and this discussion on train as a suicide method.

Um, they're responses to your posts. If you didn't understand it, don't say they didn't make any sense to the discussion because many of your posts are non-sequiturs anyway. You could simply say, I don't understand, could you explain further? But I'll gladly make the connections for you.

The first paragraph states the philosophical foundations of most users and the forum in general. It articulates where their arguments are coming from since you seem to be having a hard time understanding the other posters.

The second paragraph is not conflating suicide and homicide at all. It points out how a suicide bomber or suicidal school shooter has ramifications beyond suicide, which are not welcome on this forum due to the general utilitarian nature of the forum. People who are anti-suicide are operating from a deontological or religious perspective, not a utilitarian one. People on this forum are not anti-suicide (generally). They're utilitarians by pointing out that traumatizing a train driver causes unnecessary suffering compared to other methods.

Your last paragraph doesn't fully make sense to me, but I think what you're trying to say is that you don't see a link between the welfare of society and one's chosen suicide method. If you do see a link, then that's what I was trying to say. Sometimes I do bad job of appealing to more users with my posts.

 

[Chinaski]

Um, they're responses to your posts. If you didn't understand it, don't say they didn't make any sense to the discussion because many of your posts are non-sequiturs anyway. You could simply say, I don't understand, could you explain further? But I'll gladly make the connections for you.

The first paragraph states the philosophical foundations of most users and the forum in general. It articulates where their arguments are coming from since you seem to be having a hard time understanding the other posters.

The second paragraph is not conflating suicide and homicide at all. It points out how a suicide bomber or suicidal school shooter has ramifications beyond suicide, which are not welcome on this forum due to the general utilitarian nature of the forum. People who are anti-suicide are operating from a deontological or religious perspective, not a utilitarian one. People on this forum are not anti-suicide (generally). They're utilitarians by pointing out that traumatizing a train driver causes unnecessary suffering compared to other methods.

Your last paragraph doesn't fully make sense to me, but I think what you're trying to say is that you don't see a link between the welfare of society and one's chosen suicide method. If you do see a link, then that's what I was trying to say. Sometimes I do bad job of appealing to more users with my posts.

Tl;dr: drivel.

I don't honestly know what leads you to believe l failed to understand any of your output btw, it simply added literally nothing to the discussion beyond your usual pompous chin-stroking and l can only put that down to your consistent fallback position of assuming your intellectual pretensions are in any way impressive and not achingly mediocre and reeking of effort, you've now attempted to double down on it by suggesting you're helping me "understand" other users in a further display of breathtaking self-aggrandisement. I absolutely fucking love this website sometimes.

 

[WayOut]

... it simply added literally nothing to the discussion beyond your usual pompous chin-stroking and l can only put that down to your consistent fallback position of assuming your intellectual pretensions are in any way impressive and not achingly mediocre and reeking of effort, you've now attempted to double down on it by suggesting you're helping me "understand" other users in a further display of breathtaking self-aggrandisement.

Rather beautifully put, very elegant, yet succinct.

Low effort reply from me, sorry. I think to be fair, MT should get half a point for trying really really hard. Surely?

 

[Nanami]

This thread has been closed due to derailment and disrespect. We understand wanting to have a discussion in this thread but we have to also obey the rules of the community which state, "Do not harass, bully, or insult other users. Respect everyone's opinion even if you disagree." The recent posts ITT have not been respectful. So, please do not create any more discussion threads unless everyone can follow the rules and remain respectful with your replies.
Thanks,
Nanami