Near-death experiences debunked

[throwaway123]

 

[BlackDragonof1989]

Thanks for sharing I'm high on DXM again tonight and of course it has me feeling as though there's a spiritual realm and such, I take the sentience in my body in my time and place to mean there's a supernatural, but each person's supernatural experience will be different, real or not, but it's all subjective feeling not empirical. Thanks for this video I will have a looksie.

 

[creatureoflight]

Main arguments of the video:
1) NDEs are caused by a lack of oxgen to the brain, specifically in the temporo-parietal junction.
2) NDEs can be replicated in the lab using stimulation of the temporo-parietal junction electrically or using the drug ketamine.
3) The term 'near-death' is not exact. Most NDErs were not in fact dead during their NDEs or suffered cardiac arrest. Under these circumstances, brain activity is still possible.
4) NDEs vary widly by culture and belief. If they were proof of the afterlife, then we would expect to see more similarities between them.

1) There has been a multitude of theories that try to explain NDEs-lack of oxygen, too much Co2, etc. A 2001 study in the journal Resuscitation showed the following results. Doctors interviewed all cardiac arrest survivors (63) from a hospital, 4 of which were NDErs. The blood samples studied in those patients (blood draws during their cardiac arrest) showed that some of the patients had higher oxygen levels than those patients without an NDE.
There have also been thousands of medical students who participated in experiments in which they starved their brain of oxgygen. They became increasingly inept at performing tasks. Not a single NDE was reported during one of these experiments, even though it should have happened to at least one of them as the medical students were slowly suffocating.
2) The lab stimulation of the temporo-parietal junction refers to the work of Penfield (1955). His patients experienced hallucinations and heard music, but their experiences are different from the typical NDE and do not include all its elements.
Regarding ketamine: ketamine has strong psychedelic properties and many users have elements similar to NDEs. This leads to the conclusion that the brain produces a chemical similar to ketamine during NDEs to protect it from oxygen starvation as proposed by Karl Jansen. However, this theory cannot account for the predictable pattern of NDEs and the wide variation ketamine provides. Many features of ketamine are different from NDEs, such as seeing cartoon figures and geometric patterns which aren't typicaly reported during the NDE. Also, many NDEs occur in situations where the person is actually nowhere near death and the brain has no lowering of its oxygen supply. So why would the brain produce a ketamine like chemical to protect itself This is connected to the explanation in point 1.

 

[creatureoflight]

3) This one is absolutely correct. Many NDErs are in fact not even remotely close to death and still have these experiences with their brain activity still intact. However, there have been veridical NDEs, for example Pam Reynolds. She was having a giant aneurysm removed from her brain and she left her body and was later able to describe the surgical instruments used and what the doctors did to her. Her eyes were shut and she had earplugs in her ears. She was connected to an EEG, a brain stem monitor and she also had all the blood drained from her brain at one point in her surgery. Her EEG was flat at one point in the surgery and her brain stem showed no activity. And yet she still had an NDE. How could this be? There have also been NDEs from blind people where they were able to see, even individuals who were blind from birth. How would a brain that has never seen suddenly be able to see images in clear colors?
4) Actually, NDEs have chilling similarities across all cultures, races and religions. Moody compiled a set of characteristics of NDEs which are the same everywhere. There are variations of this, influenced by the person's belief system. But if you read reports of people who have regular OOBEs, all of them say the same thing: you can influence the astral realms by your power of thought. Your beliefs play an important role in NDEs and OOBEs. This is probably what happens to NDErs: their thoughts also seem to influence their experience, similar to the ways that happens to people with OOBEs. This does not prove or disprove anything, it is merely a similarity to OOBErs who have reported the same experience. Why do most people who have NDEs report similarities in their experiences which are the same across all cultures? Of course NDEs have differences, but they are not as big as the people in the video say.

 

[Deleted member 847]

Materialism is not science, it's a baloney philosophy based on the never proved assumption that everything can be explained through reductionism. You can't reduce consciousness, there is no such a thing as objects of consciousness, it's non local energy that renders reality. Reality without consciousness is infinite possibilities that never emerge. I see most people here like Rain love to link random "scientific" articles explaining NDE, but they themselves don't read the articles with skepticism, they just accept whatever bullshit explanation is wrote there as being a genuine debunk because if a scientist says it it must be true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds_case Just look at the bullshit explanation wrote on Wikipedia, it makes totally no sense to me, but for someone who believes in the glorious authority of the current scientific paradigm it does. Because he starts with the assumption that the paranormal must be nonsense no matter what, so he is going to accept whatever explanation he finds to keep his belief system, he is not going to consider all the factors of the experience that contradict the explanation gave by the materialist scientist.
Pseudoskeptics like to claim that they debunk certain things, but they don't, they claim they do but they actually don't, they just give a made-up articulate explanation that seems legit enough because why should it matter, the game is about manipulating people to believe their nonsense not finding the truth. They're like politicians. All the people who claim to debunk NDE never address the cases in which patients report verifiable data in conditions in which they could have not been able to, they just assume the patients or the doctors are lying which is outrageous.

 

[throwaway123]

References for the video:

Near-death experience Rationalwiki - http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Near-dea...

Near-death experience Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-de...

Interesting links on the function of the brain following "death" - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/f... , https://www.livescience.com/60593-fla... , https://www.livescience.com/38817-ele... and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2...

AWARE -Awareness during Resuscitation - A prospective study - http://www.resuscitationjournal.com/a...

Characteristics of Near-Death Experiences Memories as Compared to Real and Imagined Events Memories -http://journals.plos.org/plosone/arti...

The body unbound: vestibular-motor hallucinations and out-of-body experiences - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/...

Wikipedia out of body experiences (inducing them)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-...

towards a neuroscientific explanation of near death experiences - http://www.coma.ulg.ac.be/papers/vs/v...

The Experimental Induction of Out-of-Body Experiences - http://science.sciencemag.org/content...

Neuropsychology: Stimulating illusory own-body perceptions - http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/...

The Near-Death experience scale, construction, reliability and validity - https://goo.gl/WXbL7a

Linking Out-of-Body Experience and Self Processing to Mental Own-Body Imagery at the Temporoparietal Junction -http://www.jneurosci.org/content/25/3...

Phenomenology of Near-death Experiences: A Cross-cultural Perspective - http://tps.sagepub.com/content/45/1/1...

Inducing out of body experiences - https://goo.gl/FbF9Br

Religion, Culture and Near Death Experiences - https://goo.gl/A36w9m

There is nothing paranormal about near-death experiences: How neuroscience can explain seeing bright lights, meeting the dead, or being convinced you are one of them - https://goo.gl/ihTSnm

When is an out of body experience not an out of body experience?

Reflection about out of body phenomena in neuroscientific research - http://booksandjournals.brillonline.c...

Pedagogical tools to explore Cartesian mind-body dualism in the classroom: philosophical arguments and neuroscience illusions -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...

Inducing out of body experiences - https://infoscience.epfl.ch/record/15...

Transcranial direct current stimulation of the right temporoparietal junction impairs third-person perspective taking - http://link.springer.com/article/10.3...

The role of the right temporo-parietal junction in maintaining a coherent sense of one's body - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/...

Linking Out-of-Body Experience and Self Processing to Mental Own-Body Imagery at the Temporoparietal Junction - http://www.jneurosci.org/content/25/3...

Cerebral Hypoxia - https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/...

Confabulation - http://psychcentral.com/encyclopedia/... Boy Says He Didn't Go To Heaven; Publisher Says It Will Pull Book - http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-wa...

Bruce Greyson Rationalwiki - http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bruce_Gr...

Sceptics guide to the universe podcast regarding Dr Greyson and NDEs - http://www.theskepticsguide.org/podca...

 

[throwaway123]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience#Low_oxygen_levels_(and_G-LOC)_model

 

[BlackDragonof1989]

I'm surrounded by geniuses, gah xD Thank you guys, thought his goes over my head, for my brain is still sloppy from the drug, wow, I just marvel thank you all <3

 

[Deleted member 847]

Throwaway saying that something is happening to the brain during a NDE doesn't fucking explain how patients can report verifiable data when no information is being received by their physical senses. It doesn't explain how children can remember past lives information and it doesn't explain miraculous healings happening after them. It doesn't explain why the US government used remote viewers from the Monroe Institute in the 80s and 90s. That is the actual argument for NDE, not the tunnels of light and the heavens. Scientists thought in the 20th century that the universe was only the Milky-way and was eternal, and they had all reasons to believe that with the knowledge and technology they had at that time. Then after progresses they discovered there was more and that their picture of reality was limited. It's the same thing repeating itself today with consciousness and other paranormal phenomena, which are not really paranormal, they're another aspect of our reality that we can't yet measure with our ways of doing science.

 

[Comatose11]

I don't think an afterlife or reincarnation makes any logical sense, but a lot of people on this website believe in an afterlife. Let them be.

 

[Deleted member 847]

I don't think an afterlife or reincarnation makes any logical sense, but a lot of people on this website believe in an afterlife. Let them be.

It makes more sense to believe in materialistic bullshit based on the 5% of the things that we can measure in the universe. And that 5% made out of atoms that are only 0.0001% matter. Just look at your hands on a white background for five minutes and you can even see your aura. Look at the air in a meditative state and you will see waves of energy everywhere.

 

[Comatose11]

It makes more sense to believe in materialistic bullshit based on the 5% of the things that we can measure in the universe. And that 5% made out of atoms that are only 0.0001% matter. Just look at your hands on a white background for five minutes and you can even see your aura. Look at the air in a meditative state and you will see waves of energy everywhere.

I've never had that happen even when in a meditative state. Look, it's fine if you believe in afterlife, just like it's ok if I do not. I'm not here to debate with anyone.

 

[Deleted member 847]

I've never had that happen even when in a meditative state. Look, it's fine if you believe in afterlife, just like it's ok if I do not. I'm not here to debate with anyone.

I thought everyone could do it, looks like I'm wrong. Just try to keep an open mind, most of the things we discovered in the past were counterintuitive.

 

[RainAndSadness]

Materialism is not science, it's a baloney philosophy based on the never proved assumption that everything can be explained through reductionism. You can't reduce consciousness, there is no such a thing as objects of consciousness, it's non local energy that renders reality. Reality without consciousness is infinite possibilities that never emerge. I see most people here like Rain love to link random "scientific" articles explaining NDE, but they themselves don't read the articles with skepticism, they just accept whatever bullshit explanation is wrote there as being a genuine debunk because if a scientist says it it must be true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds_case Just look at the bullshit explanation wrote on Wikipedia, it makes totally no sense to me, but for someone who believes in the glorious authority of the current scientific paradigm it does. Because he starts with the assumption that the paranormal must be nonsense no matter what, so he is going to accept whatever explanation he finds to keep his belief system, he is not going to consider all the factors of the experience that contradict the explanation gave by the materialist scientist.
Pseudoskeptics like to claim that they debunk certain things, but they don't, they claim they do but they actually don't, they just give a made-up articulate explanation that seems legit enough because why should it matter, the game is about manipulating people to believe their nonsense not finding the truth. They're like politicians. All the people who claim to debunk NDE never address the cases in which patients report verifiable data in conditions in which they could have not been able to, they just assume the patients or the doctors are lying which is outrageous.

Did you actually read the scientific paper explaining that Pam Reynolds case? You can of course dismiss logical explanations that erase all questions about it and act as if she experienced some magical enlightenment. Again, the strongest case in my opinion against an afterlife is the fact that you lose a big part of yourself when you experience brain damage. Look at failed suicide attempts. People end up as vegetables. That wouldn't happen if your soul is completely independent on your body and exists somewhere in a magical sphere. It's all connected to neurology. You lose that, you lose your consciousness and you disappear.

 

[creatureoflight]

Did you actually read the scientific paper explaining that Pam Reynolds case? You can of course dismiss logical explanations that erase all questions about it and act as if she experienced some magical enlightenment. Again, the strongest case in my opinion against an afterlife is the fact that you lose a big part of yourself when you experience brain damage. Look at failed suicide attempts. People end up as vegetables. That wouldn't happen if your soul is completely independent on your body and exists somewhere in a magical sphere. It's all connected to neurology. You lose that, you lose your consciousness and you disappear.

Except if your brain were like a radio reciever. The soul is still inside the body when the brain gets damaged and so of course people are like a vegetable because we are not exempt from the body's functioning as the soul is connected to the body. But the soul still exists without the body as shown in numerous NDEs and OOBEs and when the body dies, the soul still lives

 

[RainAndSadness]

Except if your brain were like a radio reciever. The soul is still inside the body when the brain gets damaged and so of course people are like a vegetable because we are not exempt from the body's functioning as the soul is connected to the body. But the soul still exists without the body as shown in numerous NDEs and OOBEs and when the body dies, the soul still lives

That only applies to physical disabilities though. What about mental disablities? And no, there is no evidence that a soul can exist without a body. Because there isn't even evidence for a soul in the first place.

 

[Deleted member 847]

That only applies to physical disabilities though. What about mental disablities? And no, there is no evidence that a soul can exist without a body. Because there isn't even evidence for a soul in the first place.

That only applies if you think the only way through which we can discover truth is by using the scientific method. The explanations skeptics usually give to explain NDE are usually conspiracies or they just avoid the verified experiences to not have to invent a conspiracy and just talk about DMT and the brain going wild.

 

[creatureoflight]

That only applies to physical disabilities though. What about mental disablities? And no, there is no evidence that a soul can exist without a body. Because there isn't even evidence for a soul in the first place.

Of cours that would apply to mental disabilities too as the soul is bound by the body during our lifetime. It's not some kind of magic trick-the soul is fully encompassed by the body during life and has to do as the body does. That's the whole point of coming to Earth. I think the existence of the soul without the body is often misunderstood by those seeking rational arguments against its existence. Only when outside the body as in OOBEs, can the soul function without the body for a while until death, where it is freed and lives on without the body permanently.

 

[Deleted member 847]

Rain wants evidence for the soul, she ignores the verified NDE experiences that show that the mind can receive information when the body senses can't, because it's more rational to think all those people are lying and the current paradigm based on the 5% of what we can measure is the right one. What is your evidence that the brain can produce consciousness? I say we can't know because with our current knowledge of how the brain works it could both receive it like a radio or create it like a computer, you claim it creates it and I cease to exist after I die.

 

[creatureoflight]

Rain wants evidence for the soul, she ignores the verified NDE experiences that show that the mind can receive information when the body senses can't, because it's more rational to think all those people are lying and the current paradigm based on the 5% of what we can measure is the right one. What is your evidence that the brain can produce consciousness? I say we can't know because with our current knowledge of how the brain works it could both receive it like a radio or create it like a computer, you claim it creates it and I cease to exist after I die.

But all the evidence that the soul exists is in NDEs, OOBEs, etc. That's where one needs to look for evidence of the soul

 

[Deleted member 847]

But all the evidence that the soul exists is in NDEs, OOBEs, etc. That's where one needs to look for evidence of the soul

Of course, I would say if we didn't have NDE data then we could say that we can't know if the brain creates or receives it.

 

[ScaredOfLife]

What disturbs me about this thread and those so eager to debunk the afterlife is it's as if you're trying to take hope away from other people who do believe in it. For some people, that hope is all they have. Let them have it, for God's sake, and quit trying to rain on their parade.

 

[Samuel]

Thanks for sharing I'm high on DXM again tonight and of course it has me feeling as though there's a spiritual realm and such, I take the sentience in my body in my time and place to mean there's a supernatural, but each person's supernatural experience will be different, real or not, but it's all subjective feeling not empirical. Thanks for this video I will have a looksie.

How was your dxm trip overall? I might be due for one.

 

[Deleted member 847]

What disturbs me about this thread and those so eager to debunk the afterlife is it's as if you're trying to take hope away from other people who do believe in it. For some people, that hope is all they have. Let them have it, for God's sake, and quit trying to rain on their parade.

It makes no difference for me. I already said here that If I kill myself it's a win-win afterlife or not.

 

[RainAndSadness]

That only applies if you think the only way through which we can discover truth is by using the scientific method. The explanations skeptics usually give to explain NDE are usually conspiracies or they just avoid the verified experiences to not have to invent a conspiracy and just talk about DMT and the brain going wild.

But you can only discover truth by using the scientific method.

Rain wants evidence for the soul, she ignores the verified NDE experiences that show that the mind can receive information when the body senses can't, because it's more rational to think all those people are lying and the current paradigm based on the 5% of what we can measure is the right one.[...]

And again, that's not correct. The body senses can receive information in these NDE experiences, even in that often quoted Pam Reynolds case. It's literally explained. I know you didn't read the scientific papers. You simply dismiss it because it could contradict your worldview. It's called cognitive dissonance.

What disturbs me about this thread and those so eager to debunk the afterlife is it's as if you're trying to take hope away from other people who do believe in it. For some people, that hope is all they have. Let them have it, for God's sake, and quit trying to rain on their parade.

I'm not the one claiming there is evidence for the soul when there literally isn't. You're trying to push the afterlife-narrative on us, without providing any evidence for it. You think I want an afterlife to happen? Don't you think that would be an utter nightmare for me? Don't act as if you are the only people entitled to hope. I'm allowed to hope for no afterlife and I'm also allowed to challenge opposing views. You literally say "The soul is a fact" when it's nothing else than a belief that isn't supporting by science. When that arrogance is challenged by someone else, you complain about us taking away hope. How?

But all the evidence that the soul exists is in NDEs, OOBEs, etc. That's where one needs to look for evidence of the soul

"In many religious, philosophical, and mythological traditions, there is a belief in the incororeal essence of a living being called the soul."

First sentence of wikipedia, implying it's a belief. Also, look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul#Science

 

[Deleted member 847]

Ok Rain believe whatever you want

 

[BlackDragonof1989]

How was your dxm trip overall? I might be due for one.

It wasn't bad but alas I am a bit of an addict to anything I like, indeed I dosed about 150 mg dxm and 125 mg diphenhydramine about an hour ago and it feels so nice <3 Less is more sometimes I realize. It was good on the whole last night, but 300 mg almost had me at a psychotic break I feel, so I am decreasing dose and taking low dose diphenhydramine as I find that helps take away the psychosis feelings. But by itself, oh yes, I awoke and was loving and stroking my pillow, loving the ones who hate me with this beautiful submission of love in my heart, indeed, I took in about 32 ounces of white grapefruit juice as well last night. It was wonderful and I feel really good right now. Sounds good my friend *hugs*

 

[creatureoflight]

But you can only discover truth by using the scientific method.



And again, that's not correct. The body senses can receive information in these NDE experiences, even in that often quoted Pam Reynolds case. It's literally explained. I know you didn't read the scientific papers. You simply dismiss it because it could contradict your worldview. It's called cognitive dissonance.



I'm not the one claiming there is evidence for the soul when there literally isn't. You're trying to push the afterlife-narrative on us, without providing any evidence for it. You think I want an afterlife to happen? Don't you think that would be an utter nightmare for me? Don't act as if you are the only people entitled to hope. I'm allowed to hope for no afterlife and I'm also allowed to challenge opposing views. You literally say "The soul is a fact" when it's nothing else than a belief that isn't supporting by science. When that arrogance is challenged by someone else, you complain about us taking away hope. How?



"In many religious, philosophical, and mythological traditions, there is a belief in the incororeal essence of a living being called the soul."

First sentence of wikipedia, implying it's a belief. Also, look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul#Science

There is no way Pam Reynolds could have known what was happening to her because her eyes were taped shut and she had earplugs that emitted many clicks per second that were very loud. How could she have known anything? Actually G.M Woerlee has a rebuttal about this, I have it somewhere in my library but am too tired to read it and to review his arguments about this.
Right, a Wikipedia article is going to change my views because the first sentence implies it's a belief:)
About the afterlife being a nightmare: don't worry, it is not a nightmare at all but such a wonderful place. It is so much bettter than here actually. Almost all NDEs are very positive! So there is no reason to assume that the afterlife is a bad place.

 

[creatureoflight]

It wasn't bad but alas I am a bit of an addict to anything I like, indeed I dosed about 150 mg dxm and 125 mg diphenhydramine about an hour ago and it feels so nice <3 Less is more sometimes I realize. It was good on the whole last night, but 300 mg almost had me at a psychotic break I feel, so I am decreasing dose and taking low dose diphenhydramine as I find that helps take away the psychosis feelings. But by itself, oh yes, I awoke and was loving and stroking my pillow, loving the ones who hate me with this beautiful submission of love in my heart, indeed, I took in about 32 ounces of white grapefruit juice as well last night. It was wonderful and I feel really good right now. Sounds good my friend *hugs*

I took 150 mg of diphenhydramine once and it literally did nothing for me. I didn't even get high!:D

 

[ScaredOfLife]

But you can only discover truth by using the scientific method.



And again, that's not correct. The body senses can receive information in these NDE experiences, even in that often quoted Pam Reynolds case. It's literally explained. I know you didn't read the scientific papers. You simply dismiss it because it could contradict your worldview. It's called cognitive dissonance.



I'm not the one claiming there is evidence for the soul when there literally isn't. You're trying to push the afterlife-narrative on us, without providing any evidence for it. You think I want an afterlife to happen? Don't you think that would be an utter nightmare for me? Don't act as if you are the only people entitled to hope. I'm allowed to hope for no afterlife and I'm also allowed to challenge opposing views. You literally say "The soul is a fact" when it's nothing else than a belief that isn't supporting by science. When that arrogance is challenged by someone else, you complain about us taking away hope. How?



"In many religious, philosophical, and mythological traditions, there is a belief in the incororeal essence of a living being called the soul."

First sentence of wikipedia, implying it's a belief. Also, look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul#Science

For one thing, I never said I believed in the afterlife. I'm just saying there are some people who do and who have hope of it being pleasant, and I just don't like seeing other people try to take that hope away from them.