My daughter took her own life and was not part of this forum

[Tintypographer]

To the people on Fix the 26 who blocked me and don't want to talk to me. The reason I am here is that I was yelled at and talked down to on your Twitter account. You attacked me saying I was wrong, that the suicide website you knew and that they had good reason for banning me for feeling like I wanted to die and I needed help.

Your only recommendations are to get help.

I tried that with my daughter who took her own life and she never had access to this site. Not once and she still tok her own life

This website didn't exist.

But she did call the suicide hotline. Yup. Multiple times. It didn't help. It doesn't help me. I wonder if she had people to talk to who understood would she still be alive today as I am as well.

I am glad to see you finally posting data on your site with details on suicide being the second leading killer for people under 24. That's a good job!

But don't make the leap that it's the leading killer for people under 24 because of this site.

And don't say that the global rise in suicide since 2014 as shown in the CDC graphs is because of this website because it was not here then. That linkage is simply not true unless you have data that proves it. If you do especially actual data, not counts of people who quit posting that you have had decided committed suicide then let's talk.

My daughter took her own live never getting to see this site and ask questions and I in my darkest and saddest hours with many hospitalizations, tens of thousands of dollars in therapy including full hospitalization found this and my only dark time since then has been interacting with you.

But that's only an anecdotal case and I don't want to rely on that in an argument. I know you don't either.

 

[Ta555]

To the people on Fix the 26 who blocked me and don't want to talk to me. The reason I am here is that I was yelled at and talked down to on your Twitter account. You attacked me saying I was wrong, that the suicide website you knew and that they had good reason for banning me for feeling like I wanted to die and I needed help.

Your only recommendations are to get help.

I tried that with my daughter who took her own life and she never had access to this site. Not once and she still tok her own life

This website didn't exist.

But she did call the suicide hotline. Yup. Multiple times. It didn't help. It doesn't help me. I wonder if she had people to talk to who understood would she still be alive today as I am as well.

I am glad to see you finally posting data on your site with details on suicide being the second leading killer for people under 24. That's a good job!

But don't make the leap that it's the leading killer for people under 24 because of this site.

And don't say that the global rise in suicide since 2014 as shown in the CDC graphs is because of this website because it was not here then. That linkage is simply not true unless you have data that proves it. If you do especially actual data, not counts of people who quit posting that you have had decided committed suicide then let's talk.

My daughter took her own live never getting to see this site and ask questions and I in my darkest and saddest hours with many hospitalizations, tens of thousands of dollars in therapy including full hospitalization found this and my only dark time since then has been interacting with you.

But that's only an anecdotal case and I don't want to rely on that in an argument. I know you don't either.

I'm sorry for the situation you are in. I hope you stay away from these awful people. They have no idea what they are talking about
Are they seriously claiming causation between suicide rate and this site?? Oh boy...someone never took Stats101. Yeah...ok...it's been going up since 2014 because of this site started in 2018 and not because of rising cost of living, unemployment, uh...a whole world wide pandemic!! Must be this site.

 

[rationaltake]

@Tintypographer I'm so sorry you lost your daughter and that things have been so bad for you. The last thing you need is to be attacked online.

 

[Circles]

I'm sorry for your loss. If I may make a suggestion try to not go onto their Twitter pages anymore it's like a black hole that consumes you. There is no reasoning with them and while I can understand that they are still grieving and want revenge but ultimately their grief blinds them.

 

[D&D]

Dear @Tintypographer,

I am deeply sorry you have lost your daughter.

I have lost mine too. She never knew about SS forum either. But she did try reaching out. Including to her, at the time, partner, close friend and trained professionals. None of them took her seriously. But they all went to extraordinary lengths to distance themselves from what happened, including denying being asked for help. In explicit, unambiguous words. It took months of investigation to find out. During those months I have come to, first and foremost, learn how much, as a parent, I have failed my beautiful girl and also how deep the stigma and prejudice about suicide runs in our world. I also found SS form. I wrote about it all in an essay I posted under my original profile. I am posting here an extract in case you might find it of any help.

I really am sorry.

Extract:

"Then, one night between talking to my daughter like she is in the room with me, crying, and reading our old texts, I stumbled upon an online suicide forum(s). At first, I thought it must be some sort of hoax. It was not. The forum(s) was populated and frequented by real people. Some still in school. Some as old or older than me. Some barely literate. Some with advanced university degrees. Some unemployable. Some employed in professional roles. From all corners of our little blue planet. Wrestling with the same wish - to die. Sharing the same loneliness of not being able to talk about it in real life without being patronised, dismissed or worse. Accused of seeking attention. Like it is somehow wrong to seek attention when one is hurting. Nobody is ever dismissed as an attention seeker when in physical pain. Regardless of its cause. A drunk driver bleeding after a crash is assisted in the same manner as someone having a heart attack. Without the accusation of being attention seekers. Only the suicidal are expected to help themselves, even in an acute crisis, then blamed if they fail to survive. Their deaths frighten and inconvenience the living in the manner no other deaths do.

I joined the forum(s). Not because I needed any advice on how to swiftly and certainly end my life. I joined because it was the first time I came across a place where people talk openly about their sufferings and their struggles. As horrific as they are. Without the 'softening around the edges.' The 'edges' of abusive childhoods. Broken relationships. Fallen businesses. Unhelpful mental health services. Dismissive families. Uncaring, manipulative partners. Invalidating friends. The debts. Poverty. Unemployment. The struggles. The marginalisation. The loneliness. The isolation. The emptiness. The shame of it all.

The invisible world of 'otherness.'

The world I was becoming increasingly familiar with. On many levels. As I was becoming familiar with silence. However kind and well-intended some people were, there was inevitably a limit to their time and patience. As the psychiatrist I once saw said, '… there is an appropriate time for grieving.' Back then, I still had the energy to ask; how long would he deem appropriate to grieve the death of his own child. The psychiatrist did not have an answer. I did not think he would. Because no one has. No one ever thinks about it. Not really. Until it happens. By which time it is too late.

A few months later, I came across several initiatives started by grieving parents to ban the forum(s) from existing. I understood their anger. It is a natural reaction. An instinctive reaction deployed to mask the brutal truth hidden beneath it. The real question is not why a suicide forum(s) is allowed to freely exist on the internet, even if one is opposed to such a forum(s) as a matter of principle. Instead, the real question is why their children frequent such a forum(s). Nobody is born suicidal. But everyone is born to someone. To some parents. Placed in their care. What have they done or allowed to have happened to those children to make them join suicide forum(s)? Those are the real questions. The questions people cannot bring themselves to hear. The questions I could not stop asking myself.

The suicide forum(s) gave me a window into the dailiness of the suicidal. Together with the vocabulary to match.

I found myself wishing that at least one of us had come across it earlier. Much earlier.

If it was me, I might, (just might), have learned how to decipher some of the expressions my daughter sometimes dropped, seemingly casually. Like pebbles by the roadside. I might have learned that this is a common method devised to test whether those that have proclaimed their unconditional love and care, as I did for my daughter, are even aware of what is really going on in the lives of those they professed their unconditional love and care for. I might have learned how to respond to those 'pebbles' appropriately. Ask the right questions. In the right way. At the right time. I did not.

If it was my daughter, she would have likely struck up a conversation, even a friendship with someone. As I have witnessed happening on the forum(s). Many times. Someone who might have answered the question she had asked her friend, who later claimed to not have been aware of how serious her situation was - whether having suicidal thoughts meant that one is crazy - with some genuine understanding and compassion. Acquired through bitter personal experiences. That struggling with suicidal thoughts does not mean that one is crazy. Only human. Someone might have shared their experiences with her. Experiences she might have found relatable. Feel less alone. Someone might have chatted with her online for long enough to give her a pause. To reconsider. Even for one more day. Like many did. More than once. Because there would have always been another chance. For death. But not for life. "

 

[Callie Arcale]

I am so sorry for your unimaginable loss @Tintypographer

Thank you for understanding us. I was in therapy for many years and I had a great psychologist, I really can't say enough good things about her. But in the small hours of the night, when the pain and suffering crushed me… I couldn't call her. Suicide hotlines didn't help me. The only place I could turn to and SCREAM was SS.

Yes, this place has been my comfort on more dark nights than I can count.

 

[whywere]

I am so, so sorry for your loss. You are a beacon of light on SS. With your understanding of situations in regard to mental health you are a caring and loving soul with so much to give and also get from this awesome community.

Your post really resonated with me on so many levels. I really love having you as a great friend here on SS.

Thank you so much for being you and helping everyone. You are a saint!!

Walter

 

[Tintypographer]

Dear @Tintypographer,

I am deeply sorry you have lost your daughter.

I have lost mine too. She never knew about SS forum either. But she did try reaching out. Including to her, at the time, partner, close friend and trained professionals. None of them took her seriously. But they all went to extraordinary lengths to distance themselves from what happened, including denying being asked for help. In explicit, unambiguous words. It took months of investigation to find out. During those months I have come to, first and foremost, learn how much, as a parent, I have failed my beautiful girl and also how deep the stigma and prejudice about suicide runs in our world. I also found SS form. I wrote about it all in an essay I posted under my original profile. I am posting here an extract in case you might find it of any help.

I really am sorry.

Extract:

"Then, one night between talking to my daughter like she is in the room with me, crying, and reading our old texts, I stumbled upon an online suicide forum(s). At first, I thought it must be some sort of hoax. It was not. The forum(s) was populated and frequented by real people. Some still in school. Some as old or older than me. Some barely literate. Some with advanced university degrees. Some unemployable. Some employed in professional roles. From all corners of our little blue planet. Wrestling with the same wish - to die. Sharing the same loneliness of not being able to talk about it in real life without being patronised, dismissed or worse. Accused of seeking attention. Like it is somehow wrong to seek attention when one is hurting. Nobody is ever dismissed as an attention seeker when in physical pain. Regardless of its cause. A drunk driver bleeding after a crash is assisted in the same manner as someone having a heart attack. Without the accusation of being attention seekers. Only the suicidal are expected to help themselves, even in an acute crisis, then blamed if they fail to survive. Their deaths frighten and inconvenience the living in the manner no other deaths do.

I joined the forum(s). Not because I needed any advice on how to swiftly and certainly end my life. I joined because it was the first time I came across a place where people talk openly about their sufferings and their struggles. As horrific as they are. Without the 'softening around the edges.' The 'edges' of abusive childhoods. Broken relationships. Fallen businesses. Unhelpful mental health services. Dismissive families. Uncaring, manipulative partners. Invalidating friends. The debts. Poverty. Unemployment. The struggles. The marginalisation. The loneliness. The isolation. The emptiness. The shame of it all.

The invisible world of 'otherness.'

The world I was becoming increasingly familiar with. On many levels. As I was becoming familiar with silence. However kind and well-intended some people were, there was inevitably a limit to their time and patience. As the psychiatrist I once saw said, '… there is an appropriate time for grieving.' Back then, I still had the energy to ask; how long would he deem appropriate to grieve the death of his own child. The psychiatrist did not have an answer. I did not think he would. Because no one has. No one ever thinks about it. Not really. Until it happens. By which time it is too late.

A few months later, I came across several initiatives started by grieving parents to ban the forum(s) from existing. I understood their anger. It is a natural reaction. An instinctive reaction deployed to mask the brutal truth hidden beneath it. The real question is not why a suicide forum(s) is allowed to freely exist on the internet, even if one is opposed to such a forum(s) as a matter of principle. Instead, the real question is why their children frequent such a forum(s). Nobody is born suicidal. But everyone is born to someone. To some parents. Placed in their care. What have they done or allowed to have happened to those children to make them join suicide forum(s)? Those are the real questions. The questions people cannot bring themselves to hear. The questions I could not stop asking myself.

The suicide forum(s) gave me a window into the dailiness of the suicidal. Together with the vocabulary to match.

I found myself wishing that at least one of us had come across it earlier. Much earlier.

If it was me, I might, (just might), have learned how to decipher some of the expressions my daughter sometimes dropped, seemingly casually. Like pebbles by the roadside. I might have learned that this is a common method devised to test whether those that have proclaimed their unconditional love and care, as I did for my daughter, are even aware of what is really going on in the lives of those they professed their unconditional love and care for. I might have learned how to respond to those 'pebbles' appropriately. Ask the right questions. In the right way. At the right time. I did not.

If it was my daughter, she would have likely struck up a conversation, even a friendship with someone. As I have witnessed happening on the forum(s). Many times. Someone who might have answered the question she had asked her friend, who later claimed to not have been aware of how serious her situation was - whether having suicidal thoughts meant that one is crazy - with some genuine understanding and compassion. Acquired through bitter personal experiences. That struggling with suicidal thoughts does not mean that one is crazy. Only human. Someone might have shared their experiences with her. Experiences she might have found relatable. Feel less alone. Someone might have chatted with her online for long enough to give her a pause. To reconsider. Even for one more day. Like many did. More than once. Because there would have always been another chance. For death. But not for life. "

Thank you for bringing that to my attention and for sharing it with me. It's a special and heartfelt sentiment.

 

[rationalis]

Everyone dies, and I don't understand why it is presumed so bad to want to choose when to die. Society is in such deep denial.

 

[My_name_is_Luka]

Nobody is ever dismissed as an attention seeker when in physical pain.

Oh, I so wish that was true.. Unluckily there are chronic debilitating physical conditions that are either incurable, or that can be hardly diagnosed; and those are very very often dismissed as attention seeker. Especially in the early stages, when someone can still manage to deal with his condition.

 

[Tintypographer]

These are the messages that should drown out the fixthe26 and be part of Congressional discussions and arguments with insurance companies and school curricula. The major symptoms that statistically impact the numbers of suicides are depression, anxiety, personality disorders, gender and sexual orientation, bullying and trauma.

No where do we cite "a primary connection between suicide is participation on forums discussing suicide."

There is no data to support this.

But we do know that the numbers continue to increase, the call centers and treatment options that are universally recommended continue to be recommended and yet the numbers keep going up.

I wonder when someone will listen to a voice stating that people who are suicidal do want help that actually works. The clinical data shows that current help isn't working. We are treating heart disease with leaches by relying on "did you call your suicide hotline".

 

[Tintypographer]

Opinion only here:

The open features of this forum absolutely make it succeptible to predators and whack jobs who could be on the psychotic side.

But when we see that 5 million views occur per week that doesn't say there are 5 million psychos all pinging a site that discussed openly what it feels like to realize you're supposed to be wired for joy and you're thinking about killing yourself.

If the call lines, basic therapy and good intentions worked and cleared up the suicidal ideation then people would not be seeking ways to express their very strong feelings to a virtual community online.

I feel that youth should actually have some version of a moderated teen only suicide share space where bullying and hate speech are moderated but they can talk about their feelings and suicidal thoughts free of adults.

Again that's an opinion. I don't think underage kids should be on this forum as it exists.

Another opinion.

I also think there are people who take advantage of others and likely even use this site for twisted manipulative behavior against people in a fragile state.

I can't prove it and I think anyone caught as that degenerate a human being to take advantage of a lost kid considering suicide should be fed to a crew of capital protestors with zip ties.

But we can't start with:
Someone gave a kid an idea shut it down.

Opinion again
Sanctioned suicide would have much fewer logins and posts if mental health was highly competent and very easy to obtain at costs that resemble meals rather than car payments.


Back to facts, not opinions
The epidemic is getting worse and we are not hearing about radical changes in mental health, alternatives to call lines or making real treatment more clinical evidence based and more affordable.

 

[D&D]

Oh, I so wish that was true.. Unluckily there are chronic debilitating physical conditions that are either incurable, or that can be hardly diagnosed; and those are very very often dismissed as attention seeker. Especially in the early stages, when someone can still manage to deal with his condition.

Hi @My_name_is_Luka,

Yes, you right and I am sorry. In my post, in the context of it, I was referring to the type of obvious physical pain like in a car accidents and alike.

 

[hans0solo]

Oh, I so wish that was true.. Unluckily there are chronic debilitating physical conditions that are either incurable, or that can be hardly diagnosed; and those are very very often dismissed as attention seeker. Especially in the early stages, when someone can still manage to deal with his condition.

I have met people with EDS, which is not something I grew up knowing about. They are such people. And they are one kind of people who has to deal with the 'war on drugs','morality police' for trying to acquire pain management. Legalized Cannabis is one useful tool more recently. The fight is far from over.

Sorry for your loss. I'm glad you can see some of the understanding. It's hard to see things this way without being part of it.

I wanted to share that any time I've reached out for help I was forced into "treatment". Saddled me with debt. It's cruel. One place even put me in a padded room for a long time waiting for a dr to see me. So now not only am I the way I am but I have debt.

I've reached out to suicide numbers and it's horrible. There is no support. They try to put you in. The last time I called I was crying and they hung up on me.

It definetly made sure I never try to seek out help. All of it was too traumatic.

one of the issues for the uninformed public is the fact that psychiatric inpatient care is not free, at least in most countries. Mostly because somehow it is considered 'voluntary' and there is no 'informed consent' in the process. Nor is it trauma-informed. And the care most people get is : waiting for a psych eval, forced to take meds that you may or may not be allergic to, that you've had bad reactions to, that made you worse, etc. And then you might get to color in coloring book. Or maybe even a group if you are lucky. And somehow they want to you to 'trust them' at your most traumatized moment? 'if you only told them'? And if you hear voices? And don't be trans. Or insist that the treatment feels like rape. I am sorry for your mistreatment. Maybe you live where there is a peer crisis respite which would have better care.

To the people on Fix the 26 who blocked me and don't want to talk to me. The reason I am here is that I was yelled at and talked down to on your Twitter account. You attacked me saying I was wrong, that the suicide website you knew and that they had good reason for banning me for feeling like I wanted to die and I needed help.

Your only recommendations are to get help.

I tried that with my daughter who took her own life and she never had access to this site. Not once and she still tok her own life

This website didn't exist.

But she did call the suicide hotline. Yup. Multiple times. It didn't help. It doesn't help me. I wonder if she had people to talk to who understood would she still be alive today as I am as well.

I am glad to see you finally posting data on your site with details on suicide being the second leading killer for people under 24. That's a good job!

But don't make the leap that it's the leading killer for people under 24 because of this site.

And don't say that the global rise in suicide since 2014 as shown in the CDC graphs is because of this website because it was not here then. That linkage is simply not true unless you have data that proves it. If you do especially actual data, not counts of people who quit posting that you have had decided committed suicide then let's talk.

My daughter took her own live never getting to see this site and ask questions and I in my darkest and saddest hours with many hospitalizations, tens of thousands of dollars in therapy including full hospitalization found this and my only dark time since then has been interacting with you.

But that's only an anecdotal case and I don't want to rely on that in an argument. I know you don't either.

thanks for mentioning the site. figures its in Texas. So many groups don't understand the CDA and section 230. As someone aware of the idea of internet freedom from the 1990s, much of the internet today would not exist at all without that section. Only super-mega-corps have the resources to barely 'police' their content. Any small or new site can't suddenly hire 100 people to check each and every post. Society looks for ways to 'police' people -- which is why we have police and psychiatry. As a 'radical' or a person with a critical view of psychiatry, it many weak spots. One is suicidality. Its about liability, risk assessments, diagnosis. Its not about listening. Its about 'listening' for a checklist of signs. And then over-medicating. Its neoliberal. A notion that people are responcible for their own deaths, because of their own choice. But don't consider family pressure, western beauty standards, not being to afford rent or food, or the lack of child care, or racism, transphobia. Its 'your choice'. I also understand being a child of a family who doesn't understand. Parents do things from their own life experience, what they think is best. But, like myself, all of other people's worldviews are not mine. What my family thinks as helpful, I feel as traumatic. What do they want for me? Success, happiness, to have a cleaner room? Doesn't sound bad. But they don't consider the pressure, coercion, the force, the threats that they impose. Its just 'being caring'. I have learned that its about 'mis-alignment'. When other's don't agree with your reality. It's a form of gas-lighting, of domination, of control. If you live with people who do this, mostly because of no ability to move away, its torture. I might get a chance to leave this behind. But the family I have will view it as a betrayal. Its not different from leaving an abusive spouse. When someone doesn't want to accept your worldview because it reflects them having to acknowledge that you suffered abuse, it is typically expressed with violence. This place and other places like it provide a space for people to speak because society and psychiatry don't allow it. Its points the finger at them for abuse. But they want to show the nice photo of a happy family. Any anyone who wants to show their scars is told about damaging 'the family' and the harm it will do.

 

[GentleJerk]

I absolutely love reading your posts @Tintypographer , it strikes me how much of a difference there is between how you approach the topic of suicide, and how someone like the FT26 approaches it, even though you share the same loss. Clearly you have a very compassionate and wise understanding that can only come from a deep personal experience, and a mind that seeks to resolve rather than persecute.

I wish you all the best and I'm glad you and your wise words are here for all of us.

 

[Deleted member 8975]

I am so sorry for your loss.

I am sorry you've been harassed and attacked after this :(

 

[My_name_is_Luka]

Hi @My_name_is_Luka,

Yes, you right and I am sorry. In my post, in the context of it, I was referring to the type of obvious physical pain like in a car accidents and alike.

I didn't mean to be rude; just wanted to add another reality that leads people to suicide. For people that suffer from chronic health problems and try to get answers and support from doctors, often the interaction with doctors becomes an embarassing and humiliating situation that gets repeated for years. To the point that they never get the support they need, they are referred to multiple specialists in an endless circle until they start being considered as a nuisance or referred to psychologists.

 

[Tintypographer]

Hey all, I wouldn't call it harassment. I don't even care if I'm Doxed. I am as upstanding a person as I can be. They can't tear me down even if they make things up. I have the same situation as Kelli herself with a youth who committed suicide. My daughter took her life by firearm and never never went on this site. But she did call a suicide hotline the day before she did it. But I didn't take up a crusade against hotlines.

I believe the problem isn't the availability of information. There were no instruction PDFs for using a gun. She didn't get the gun from me or out home and we didn't have guns. Still don't have any. The fault wasn't the information or the gun. The reason she committed suicide is that she wasn't able to relieve her pain of constant depression, anxiety and fears of bullying and social interactions with a loop of counselors, meds and call center interactions. Those options are failing people if they are overwhelmed as a system and we still have increasing suicides.

The reasons for suicide on a macro level are probably many: lack of community, growing depression, major increases in virtual time, heavy streams of advertising and pressure for your attention in seconds, high expectations in schools and culture, increasingly brittle gates that allow no mechanism for failure...

But the reasons for epidemic-scale increases in suicide are not simply "sites run by incels" or using a loud attention grabbing "death cult" mantra tied to the statement designed to grab attention (see my above supposition on streams of advertising vying for your attention) "imagine a website designed to teach children how to kill themselves". One can take a set of logic statements to build that strawman but Kelli and her crew won't argue with me in a moderated forum that doesn't allow dtrawmen.

Kelli! Just letting you know I reached out and had a coffee with my state rep this.mornin in your home state of Texas to walk him through your claims and strawmen and explain why you're using falsehoods to make it appear that your numbers are more visceral than they actually are. I'm more than willing to debate you any time with a SMU economics and psychology professor moderating in a completely live and recorded debate where everything you state must be fact checked against real numbers and data to prove what you say against the reality of suicide care and treatment. Just reach out, I'll set it up!

 

[Ankou]

I hate that a lot of people are more concerned about how and not why someone kill themself. Preventing the root cause instead of the method is a much better idea but no one is doing that

 

[Rabhen]

To the people on Fix the 26 who blocked me and don't want to talk to me. The reason I am here is that I was yelled at and talked down to on your Twitter account. You attacked me saying I was wrong, that the suicide website you knew and that they had good reason for banning me for feeling like I wanted to die and I needed help.

Your only recommendations are to get help.

I tried that with my daughter who took her own life and she never had access to this site. Not once and she still tok her own life

This website didn't exist.

But she did call the suicide hotline. Yup. Multiple times. It didn't help. It doesn't help me. I wonder if she had people to talk to who understood would she still be alive today as I am as well.

I am glad to see you finally posting data on your site with details on suicide being the second leading killer for people under 24. That's a good job!

But don't make the leap that it's the leading killer for people under 24 because of this site.

And don't say that the global rise in suicide since 2014 as shown in the CDC graphs is because of this website because it was not here then. That linkage is simply not true unless you have data that proves it. If you do especially actual data, not counts of people who quit posting that you have had decided committed suicide then let's talk.

My daughter took her own live never getting to see this site and ask questions and I in my darkest and saddest hours with many hospitalizations, tens of thousands of dollars in therapy including full hospitalization found this and my only dark time since then has been interacting with you.

But that's only an anecdotal case and I don't want to rely on that in an argument. I know you don't either.

My heart to you.